Can Non-Abrahamics and Abrahamics be from same God?

[loverofhumanity]

We? You mean Baha'i, right? It's tough to maintain a balance if someone has strong faith, and the spouse doesn't. To me, family harmony IS the religion. Divorce rates are high these days, although I'm not sure of all the contributing factors. Certainly religious differences is one of them.

I think it depends on the maturity of the individuals but divorce is strongly condemned in our religion so if the Baha’is are strong Baha’is then they won’t divorce. Being a strong Baha’i doesn’t mean just teaching, it also means trying one’s best to maintain unity in the family.

“Whenever there is a Bahá’í family, those concerned should by all means do all they can to preserve it, because divorce is strongly condemned in the Teachings, whereas harmony, unity and love are held up as the highest ideals in human relationships. This must always apply to the Bahá’ís, whether they are serving in the pioneering field or not.” Shoghi Effendi

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha'is I knew in the 70's were continuously focused on "teaching" efforts. I went with them to several Mass Teaching events. My best Baha'i friend divorced his wife because he wanted to go "pioneer" in the Marshall Islands and she didn't. Every Baha'i was encouraged to hold a fireside.That is not the case anymore?

We Baha’is are far from perfect.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think it depends on the maturity of the individuals but divorce is strongly condemned in our religion so if the Baha’is are strong Baha’is then they won’t divorce. Being a strong Baha’i doesn’t mean just teaching, it also means trying one’s best to maintain unity in the family.

“Whenever there is a Bahá’í family, those concerned should by all means do all they can to preserve it, because divorce is strongly condemned in the Teachings, whereas harmony, unity and love are held up as the highest ideals in human relationships. This must always apply to the Bahá’ís, whether they are serving in the pioneering field or not.” Shoghi Effendi

Actual statistics are unavailable, but according to the 'covenant breaker', Professor Cole, Baha'i divorce rate is higher than for the average in the US. He gives a lot of rather logical reasons for this, and claims the governing body hides it. So I don't know. I do know lots of folks who preach against divorce end up getting divorced. So too with marriage counselors and psychologists. So there must be a lot more to it than just being against it. I view action much higher than words. What a person says or preaches doesn't really cut it for me. They talk the talk, but can they walk the walk?

Personally, I view mature individuals as being far more likely to be able to hold a marriage together. Really immature folks probably couldn't marry anyone with total harmony, whereas a mature unselfish person probably has a higher pool to choose from.

Then again, sometimes divorce is a really positive thing. It's just correcting a wrong. We all make mistakes, and better to correct it that to let it fester into something worse.

Edited to add ... Opinion | Interfaith Marriages: A Mixed Blessing

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I do know lots of folks who preach against divorce end up getting divorced. So too with marriage counselors and psychologists. So there must be a lot more to it than just being against it. I view action much higher than words. What a person says or preaches doesn't really cut it for me. They talk the talk, but can they walk the walk?

We are all human.

Sometimes one must take a walk in the error to find the wisdom in the law that they hold as sound truth.

My wife and I divorced and we are married again. Puting older shoulders on younger heads can not be done, we must learn from our error.

We can look back and in doing so, offer sound advice to others that have faced or are facing what our circstances were.

It takes great strength to overcome some aspects of this life.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

We are all human.

Sometimes one must take a walk in the error to find the wisdom in the law that they hold as sound truth.

My wife and I divorced and we are married again. Puting older shoulders on younger heads can not be done, we must learn from our error.

We can look back and in doing so, offer sound advice to others that have faced or are facing what our circstances were.

It takes great strength to overcome some aspects of this life.

Regards Tony

Personally, I would never try to advise anyone on marriage. People can figure stuff out for themselves. Let them seek out professional help. if they must. Divorce can be a wise solution. I think when religion holds staying married as an ideal and ignores other important factors, it's folly. A lifetime of beatings isn't good for either party, in the long run. (karma)

I remember one couple who were having difficulties. When the d word came up, he said, "You can't. It's against our religion." She said, "Oh yeah? Watch this." She served the papers within a week or so.

 

[loverofhumanity]

We are all human.

Sometimes one must take a walk in the error to find the wisdom in the law that they hold as sound truth.

My wife and I divorced and we are married again. Puting older shoulders on younger heads can not be done, we must learn from our error.

We can look back and in doing so, offer sound advice to others that have faced or are facing what our circstances were.

It takes great strength to overcome some aspects of this life.

Regards Tony

That’s wonderful Tony. My wife has been spoiling me with so much good food during this fasting period I’ll have spoil her after it’s finished. We’re both fasting. But this year has been the hottest fast I can remember. Usually we had rain and cold days but this year temperatures have hovered around 40 degrees everyday.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Personally, I would never try to advise anyone on marriage. People can figure stuff out for themselves. Let them seek out professional help. if they must. Divorce can be a wise solution. I think when religion holds staying married as an ideal and ignores other important factors, it's folly. A lifetime of beatings isn't good for either party, in the long run. (karma)

I remember one couple who were having difficulties. When the d word came up, he said, "You can't. It's against our religion." She said, "Oh yeah? Watch this." She served the papers within a week or so.

It is an importand aspect, when we marry we need to make sure we know each other, but time can also change us and this is where.we need to grow together, not apart. There are times when one can not accept the others change.

I see marriage as the first bond where unity needs to be acheived. Without unity, a strong family can not be built and then on into community and beyond.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Personally, I would never try to advise anyone on marriage. People can figure stuff out for themselves. Let them seek out professional help. if they must. Divorce can be a wise solution. I think when religion holds staying married as an ideal and ignores other important factors, it's folly. A lifetime of beatings isn't good for either party, in the long run. (karma)

I remember one couple who were having difficulties. When the d word came up, he said, "You can't. It's against our religion." She said, "Oh yeah? Watch this." She served the papers within a week or so.

In a case where there were beatings and such, divorce would be recommended. That’s why we have divorce as sometimes it is required to protect an individual. But it is to be used correctly, not as a means to move from woman to woman which happens a lot in western society.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That’s wonderful Tony. My wife has been spoiling me with so much good food during this fasting period I’ll have spoil her after it’s finished. We’re both fasting. But this year has been the hottest fast I can remember. Usually we had rain and cold days but this year temperatures have hovered around 40 degrees everyday.

Thinking of you both. Yes very hot and humid this way as well. Our better half always needs to be spoilt

Stay well and happy, Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It is an importand aspect, when we marry we need to make sure we know each other, but time can also change us and this is where.we need to grow together, not apart. There are times when one can not accept the others change.

Why not accept the other's change? They have the right to change. Putting high expectations on a spouse isn't a method of promoting unity, in my view. It's unity my way, which isn't unity at all. Frankly, I've seen too much of that.

Too many folks, in my view, figure that faith alone will pull them through, so they hurry into marriages figuring 'as long as he/she is a _______ (same faith as me) we'll get along.- Then they just rush to get married. I think there should be a much longer wait period to get to really know the person. Who needs a surprise 3 years in?

 

[Vinayaka]

In a case where there were beatings and such, divorce would be recommended. That’s why we have divorce as sometimes it is required to protect an individual. But it is to be used correctly, not as a means to move from woman to woman which happens a lot in western society.

Or man to man. I read an article earlier today that held women at least as, if not more responsible, for divorces.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-third-wave/201705/who-initiates-divorce-more-often

 

[CG Didymus]

That is a key thought in all of this as No one knows who God is, not even the Messengers.

Now those that claim they do, claim falsely. A Mesenger Claims a Message from God, that they were created for that Message and in that Station they are that Message, not God.

Baha'u'llah has asked you to consider, who would contemplate giving such a Message knowing of the consequences? One would have to be mad, or who they claim to be.



Then your problem is with all people of Faith, as history has shown that it is not just the Baha'i, all Faiths have this firm foundation. The progression of Prophets in the Bible show that God renews His Message, in fact it is God's Covenant to us that we will not be left alone.

The Jews have not accepted Christ, the Jews and Christains have not Accepted Muhammad, The Jews, Christains and Muslims have not accepted Baha'u'llah. This is now part of History.

Thus it comes back to logic, are we one people or not? If we are one people, we will find advice in all Faiths to treat each other as we would like to be treated. Thus can this be found in all Faiths, yes.

Man is very vain, how can we know what created us, apart what God has willed we can know?

Regards Tony

So then that means that Jesus didn't know God? And since Krishna is an avatar, he didn't know himself?

Then I said, "The problems I have with the Baha'i Faith I keep pointing out, but the big one is that if the Baha'is are right, then every other religion, as believed and practiced, is still wrong."

That's a little different then what you're trying to say. So which ones of the other major religions says that all the other religions, as believed and practiced today, are wrong? Definitely Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Do Hindus and Buddhists?

 

[CG Didymus]

We are told we must live balanced lives with moderation and that the home and family are very important as is our religion and both need to be given ample attention. It is a matter of balance.

“the home is an institution that Bahá’u’lláh has come to strengthen and not to weaken. Many unfortunate things have happened in Bahá’í homes just for neglecting this point. Serve the Cause but also remember your duties towards your home. It is for you to find the balance and see that neither makes you neglect the other.”

(Shoghi Effendi)

They were young and didn't have any kids. But he felt the urgent need to go "serve" the Cause and felt God was calling him.

 

[CG Didymus]

Why do you think Messengers of God were tortured, crucified, stoned, exiled imprisoned and treated so cruelly?

They didn’t come to appease and Their appearance caused a great tumult and consternation in the hearts as They rejected what was being taught at the time and so They suffered horribly.

We Baha’is can’t expect to be immune from hostility, indifference and even persecution for teaching things contrary to what others have believed in for thousands of years. So sometimes we are just between a rock and a hard place.

Well, about the messengers... was Buddha, Krishna, Moses, Abraham and even Muhammad tortured or stoned? But what does that have to do with Baha'is presenting their message in a way that offends people in other religions? By telling Hindus that they have misinterpreted their Scriptures about reincarnation... or that reincarnation was not in the original teachings of some unknown manifestation but was added in and is only a tradition of men, that is not going to go over very well.

But if you want to alienate people and push them away and show how your religion is superior to theirs, then fine. But, that's not what Baha'is are about. They are supposed to be bringing peace and oneness to the world... and show how all religions have all come from the same source. Or, do Baha'is really believe that religions aren't one? That all of them are corrupt and filled with man made ideas and concepts about God and the spiritual world? Then fine, tell how wrong they are. How far off the true path they've gotten. I don't know, so I like listening to what they believe in... and don't necessarily believe they are wrong. I understand that you do, because your prophet said so.

 

[CG Didymus]

We Baha’is are far from perfect.

Unfortunately for Baha'is, they are held to a higher standard, because they are the ones saying Christ has returned, it's time for the world to come together in peace. So when a Baha'i falls short, it reflects bad on the religion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So then that means that Jesus didn't know God? And since Krishna is an avatar, he didn't know himself?

Then I said, "The problems I have with the Baha'i Faith I keep pointing out, but the big one is that if the Baha'is are right, then every other religion, as believed and practiced, is still wrong."

That's a little different then what you're trying to say. So which ones of the other major religions says that all the other religions, as believed and practiced today, are wrong? Definitely Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Do Hindus and Buddhists?

Practicing a religion is living the virtues. So many still practice their religion.

So then that means that Jesus didn't know God? And since Krishna is an avatar, he didn't know himself?

Then I said, "The problems I have with the Baha'i Faith I keep pointing out, but the big one is that if the Baha'is are right, then every other religion, as believed and practiced, is still wrong."

That's a little different then what you're trying to say. So which ones of the other major religions says that all the other religions, as believed and practiced today, are wrong? Definitely Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i Faith. Do Hindus and Buddhists?

Prophecy in all those Faiths foretell of a time when most of humanity will have got it wrong and that an age of peace will result from a New Message.

A 5th Buddha, a 10th Avatar, a Lord of Hosts, Christ, Elijah are awaited for, to name a few.

That is our greatest journey in self, knowing we got it wrong and making good on past failures. It takes strength to do this, I personally know one has to work hard at it each and every day.

I wish for you all the good of this world and the worlds to come, regards Tony

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

When we're talking about the different major religions all having the same God as their source, even within one religion, Christianity, it's hard to convince the others about God and what is false and vain. So many of the major sects and denominations in Christianity, including the first and biggest, the Catholics, believe God is a Trinity. Already, if the Jews, Muslims and Baha'is are right, they don't even know who God is. Their belief is false. So they can't be from the same God, because they don't believe in the same God.

Then many Protestants believe that Catholics are worshipping statues and Mary. Oh, and then most Christians believe their God created a great and beautiful angel that fell and became Satan. So their God has a minor evil god that is warring against him. So who they describe as being their God is not the same God of the Jews, Muslims and Baha'is. Then add in Buddhists, Hindus and the others from India. How do each describe who their God is?

I think those details are important, and that to say that the source of all religions is the one and same God, is too simplistic. I see it as the same Baha'i argument that all religions are one. Yes, they have some similarities, but it discounts all the differences. And, because of the differences, I put the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation in there also.

I understand that to say one God revealed truth about himself by sending messengers to different people. That each of those messages was only meant to get people to grow spiritually and to be prepared for the next set of instructions. But that is not what it looks like to me. It's more like all people created their own concept of gods and God. The religions they created were very much influenced by their culture and the times. Many religious beliefs and practices were horrible and, thankfully, done away with. So ideas about God and religion evolved.

But, in all these cases, was the source the one true God, or people's ideas about God? That is more how I see it. Which allows for the differences and allows for the "progression" and changes over time. It allows for a lot of "creative" writing of Scriptures with great wonders and miracles, which never happened, but were meant to get people to believe that God is great and powerful.

But then we get to Jesus and Baha'u'llah. I could see the early Christians still adding in embellished spiritual stories of Virgin Births, miraculous healings, walking on water, rising from the dead and then floating off to space. I don't see them as "symbolic". I would see them as fictional, mythical stories to make Jesus a God/man... or, if true, he is a God/man. What I don't like about those things being true, though, is it means all the other religions are wrong.

The problems I have with the Baha'i Faith I keep pointing out, but the big one is that if the Baha'is are right, then every other religion, as believed and practiced, is still wrong. Too many fundamental, core beliefs are said to be wrong either by misinterpreting or taking literal things that were written as being figurative. As you know, I don't see it that way. If the event, like the resurrection didn't happen, then it's a lie, a hoax. But then, how'd they get away with it? But also, if it didn't happen, then their beliefs about God are based on a fictional story or worse, a hoax. So that would mean they didn't come from God, their religion came from a fabricated story that was taken to be true... that led them to make Jesus God. And that is not the same God that many of the other religions would believe in.

Then their is reincarnation. From the one true God or from people? But who is the Hindu God? Who is the Buddhist God? I took a college course on all this, but I don't remember. I have to depend on the people that follow and believe in those religions. And reincarnation is intrinsic to their beliefs. I personally would like it. I could use a few more chances to get things right. Especially if Christianity is right. But, even with Baha'is, I'm not going to get to a very high level in the spiritual world. Is everything perfect and believable in the different Hindu religions? No, but are they growing and changing... and improving? Yes. That's why I like what they say. And I'd hate to have them give up on their beliefs because Baha'is and other religions disagree with their belief in reincarnation.

Anyway, thanks Adrian and the rest of the Baha'is. Your threads are my favorites.

All good CG.

Its interesting to consider the different beliefs of the main world religions or worldviews. The word worldview could include atheism and agnosticism.

A fundamental principle for investigating reality is the existence of 'objective' truth. Take the statement "The earth revolves around the sun". The sun as we know it exists independently of whether or not we believe in it. Imagining the sun doesn't mean it ceases to exist. Believing there are three suns does make it true either.

Same deal with religious truth. The different religions and worldviews all make contradictory statements. They can not all be true. Just because we believe something exists isn't relevant to truth. For example atheism, monotheism and polytheism can not all be true.

The soul (a part of us that continues after this life) either exists or it doesn't. If it does it either comes back to this world reincarnated or it doesn't. If God exists He is either triune as the Christians say or He isn't. Satan either exists or he doesn't. Miracles are either possible or they are not. The resurrection of Christ either happened or it didn't. If God exists then man either has the capacity to know and worship God or he doesn't.

The Baha'i Faith provides a coherent view of reality for some. To others it is contradictory and nonsensical. Its either true or it isn't. In considering the criticisms of the Baha'i Faith it still appears to be the best approximation of reality. Sure, it doesn't agree with every religious belief, but how could it. Acknowledging the spiritual light that has come from Hinduism and Buddhism and placing Krishna and Buddha on a level playing field with Christ and Muhammad looks pretty even handed to me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Actual statistics are unavailable, but according to the 'covenant breaker', Professor Cole, Baha'i divorce rate is higher than for the average in the US. He gives a lot of rather logical reasons for this, and claims the governing body hides it. So I don't know. I do know lots of folks who preach against divorce end up getting divorced. So too with marriage counselors and psychologists. So there must be a lot more to it than just being against it. I view action much higher than words. What a person says or preaches doesn't really cut it for me. They talk the talk, but can they walk the walk?

Personally, I view mature individuals as being far more likely to be able to hold a marriage together. Really immature folks probably couldn't marry anyone with total harmony, whereas a mature unselfish person probably has a higher pool to choose from.

Then again, sometimes divorce is a really positive thing. It's just correcting a wrong. We all make mistakes, and better to correct it that to let it fester into something worse.

Edited to add ... Opinion | Interfaith Marriages: A Mixed Blessing

Juan Cole is not regarded by the Baha'is as a Covenant breaker. He is certainly a staunch critic of the Baha'i Faith but Baha'is are free to associate with him.

The Baha'i Faith in the West is still a relatively young community. I know Baha'is who have been married several times and others whose marriages have been lifelong. The majority of Baha'is I know well have become Baha'is as adults but there are increasing numbers of young people who are second and third generation Baha'is. Persian Baha'is on the other hand are often fifth or sixth generation.

I also know quite a few people who have been a Baha'i for a relatively brief period of time and then decided its not for them.

Its hard to know how the Baha'i community would fare when it comes to divorce rates and how meaningful any data would be.

 

[loverofhumanity]

They were young and didn't have any kids. But he felt the urgent need to go "serve" the Cause and felt God was calling him.

There’s many ways to serve that could have been agreeable to both.

 

[Vinayaka]

Juan Cole is not regarded by the Baha'is as a Covenant breaker. He is certainly a staunch critic of the Baha'i Faith but Baha'is are free to associate with him.

The Baha'i Faith in the West is still a relatively young community. I know Baha'is who have been married several times and others whose marriages have been lifelong. The majority of Baha'is I know well have become Baha'is as adults but there are increasing numbers of young people who are second and third generation Baha'is. Persian Baha'is on the other hand are often fifth or sixth generation.

I also know quite a few people who have been a Baha'i for a relatively brief period of time and then decided its not for them.

Its hard to know how the Baha'i community would fare when it comes to divorce rates and how meaningful any data would be.

I stand corrected. I just find that the preaching against divorce by a community whose own divorce rates are high, or exceeding the average, to be hypocritical. Don't get me wrong, I'm against divorce as well, but I don't preach my personal view.