Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

[Audie]

Anthony Flew's conversion is very often over stated by overly enthusiastic Christian apologists.

Making the most of scanty material.

I object anyway, to people talking about how they
know all about how atheists think, because they
were atheists for a while, meaning, they were
raised in a religious home, rebelled for a bit, and
then went back.

They never were atheists.

 

[George-ananda]

I've always thought seemed surprisingly simple. What do you see as mind-boggling complexity?

Think about your body and the millions of processes that go on. Now build a molecule that can contain building instructions for all that.

I guess it's a matter of perspective, but the first reproducing organism just has to be anything that reproduces itself. We know that lot of substances can do this.

Only life with DNA can do this.

 

[Audie]

Think about your body and the millions of processes that go on. Now build a molecule that can contain building instructions for all that.

Only life with DNA can do this.

Try making a pencil from scratch.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Think about your body and the millions of processes that go on. Now build a molecule that can contain building instructions for all that.

In what way does DNA contain building instructions?

Only life with DNA can do this.

Just because the life we know of uses DNA does not mean that all life has to use DNA.

 

[George-ananda]

Try making a pencil from scratch.

I don't understand your point, sorry.

 

[George-ananda]

Just because the life we know of uses DNA does not mean that all life has to use DNA.

I think I agree with that but I don't get your point.

 

[Libski]

Making the most of scanty material.

I object anyway, to people talking about how they
know all about how atheists think, because they
were atheists for a while, meaning, they were
raised in a religious home, rebelled for a bit, and
then went back.

They never were atheists.

Making the most of scanty material.

I object anyway, to people talking about how they
know all about how atheists think, because they
were atheists for a while, meaning, they were
raised in a religious home, rebelled for a bit, and
then went back.

They never were atheists.

I was an atheist for years. At the time, I couldn’t see the contradictions in it. I believed layers upon layers of lies. I didn’t doubt it until I was pressed on it. Objective vs subjective morality, I didn’t realise that subjective means that it doesn’t exist.

I had an eating disorder. I was told that baptism is real so I got baptised. Something real happened. I was set free. The “harsh inner critic” left me, the obsessive compulsive urge left, control left, I was left with silence in my head and complete peace. I now know because of that that God is real and baptism is powerful.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I was an atheist for years. At the time, I couldn’t see the contradictions in it. I believed layers upon layers of lies. I didn’t doubt it until I was pressed on it. Objective vs subjective morality, I didn’t realise that subjective means that it doesn’t exist.

How did you reach that conclusion?

I had an eating disorder. I was told that baptism is real so I got baptised. Something real happened. I was set free. The “harsh inner critic” left me, the obsessive compulsive urge left, control left, I was left with silence in my head and complete peace. I now know because of that that God is real and baptism is powerful.

Since this was an entirely subjective experience, how do you know that it's real?

 

[Libski]

How did you reach that conclusion?


Since this was an entirely subjective experience, how do you know that it's real?

How do I know that the eating disorder is gone?

I don’t have a voice in my head anymore, constantly putting me down. I no longer see swollen hands when I eat something fatty. I have no urge to control people or situations. I’m no longer suspicious. I’m no longer anxious. I don’t get stressed - ever!

I don’t know - how could it not be real if it’s gone for two and a half years now? I tried everything for several years before that and nothing worked.

Also, I’ve seen God move. I’ve seen people being set free from all types of things - baptising them, the strangest things happen. They all have the same expression afterwards and their eyes look the same - relaxed and peaceful.

Morality? I don’t know how you don’t come to the same conclusion - opinion or real. I don’t know how to explain my view. Sorry.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How do I know that the eating disorder is gone?

That's not quite what I asked. I'm sure you can establish whether your eating disorder is gone - the question is whether or not the experience you had is being correctly attributed as a divine experience rather than a perfectly natural one.

I don’t have a voice in my head anymore, constantly putting me down. I no longer see swollen hands when I eat something fatty. I have no urge to control people or situations. I’m no longer suspicious. I’m no longer anxious. I don’t get stressed - ever!

I don’t know - how could it not be real if it’s gone for two and a half years now? I tried everything for several years before that and nothing worked.

Also, I’ve seen God move. I’ve seen people being set free from all types of things - baptising them, the strangest things happen. They all have the same expression afterwards and their eyes look the same - relaxed and peaceful.

Morality? I don’t know how you don’t come to the same conclusion - opinion or real. I don’t know how to explain my view. Sorry.

But, again, you just said that "subjective" means "doesn't exist", and all of these experiences are subjective. So how do you know any of these experiences are real or that your explanation for them is true?

 

[Libski]

That's not quite what I asked. I'm sure you can establish whether your eating disorder is gone - the question is whether or not the experience you had is being correctly attributed as a divine experience rather than a perfectly natural one.


But, again, you just said that "subjective" means "doesn't exist", and all of these experiences are subjective. So how do you know any of these experiences are real or that your explanation for them is true?

What natural thing could take it away?

Besides, I’ve seen people manifest demons, get healed from all sorts of ailments, I’ve been led by God...

I’ve seen too much at this point to believe otherwise.

As for opinion versus absolute? I know that morality is absolute because I know that God is real.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

What natural thing could take it away?

Besides, I’ve seen people manifest demons, get healed from all sorts of ailments, I’ve been led by God...

I've seen children with leukemia, magic shows, and I've seen people profess all manner of the exact same miracles to Hindu deities, Allah, Set and even Satan. What makes you think your experience is true compared to theirs?

I’ve seen too much at this point to believe otherwise.

But what you've seen is still subjective, therefore it cannot be true, right?

As for opinion versus absolute? I know that morality is absolute because I know that God is real.

How if you only "know" this through subjective experience when you assert subjectivity means "doesn't exist". You can only therefore conclude that your experiences are wrong and God does not exist.

 

[Libski]

I've seen children with leukemia, magic shows, and I've seen people profess all manner of the exact same miracles to Hindu deities, Allah, Set and even Satan. What makes you think your experience is true compared to theirs?


But what you've seen is still subjective, therefore it cannot be true, right?


How if you only "know" this through subjective experience when you assert subjectivity means "doesn't exist". You can only therefore conclude that your experiences are wrong and God does not exist.

Experience is real; a subjective moral is not. I see moral as a standard, a law, and some things are right, others are wrong - universally - regardless of opinion.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Experience is real; a subjective moral is not. I see moral as a standard, a law, and some things are right, others are wrong - universally - regardless of opinion.

An experience is real, but your interpretation of the experience is subjective. Three or four people may have virtually identical experiences to you but attribute it to entirely different things - to some, it could lead them to God, to others it may lead them to Buddhism, others may believe it's black magic, others still would not be lead in any direction and simply chalk it up to physiology or psychology. What makes you so certain that your subjective interpretation of events is any more accurate than theirs?

 

[Libski]

An experience is real, but your interpretation of the experience is subjective. Three or four people may have virtually identical experiences to you but attribute it to entirely different things - to some, it could lead them to God, to others it may lead them to Buddhism, others may believe it's black magic, others still would not be lead in any direction and simply chalk it up to physiology or psychology. What makes you so certain that your subjective interpretation of events is any more accurate than theirs?

If the Bible says do A, B and C and you do it and it works (someone is healed, for instance) why would you attribute that to anything other than what you read? It’s specific and not at all vague.

The Bible is testable.

 

[Audie]

I was an atheist for years. At the time, I couldn’t see the contradictions in it. I believed layers upon layers of lies. I didn’t doubt it until I was pressed on it. Objective vs subjective morality, I didn’t realise that subjective means that it doesn’t exist.

I had an eating disorder. I was told that baptism is real so I got baptised. Something real happened. I was set free. The “harsh inner critic” left me, the obsessive compulsive urge left, control left, I was left with silence in my head and complete peace. I now know because of that that God is real and baptism is powerful.

First to say that we are all so happy for you, that the
burden you'd suffered under is lifted, and you feel
peace and happiness.

I am far from peace and happiness in my own life, for
my own reasons. You've done well.

To what you said about being an atheist, I wonder if you mean you were raised with some religion, and then fell away from it?

Curious too, what contradictions you see in atheism.
I seen none, so, what am I missing?

I can only guess what layers of lies you may have been
told, or told yourself, Care to share?

One difference I see in us-I always doubt.

Another, I dont agree at all that "subjective" means it does not exist. i'd sa rather than "objective" morality
is an illusion, and no example can be given.

I am no psychologist or psychiatrist, still less a
tele-psychologist, so I cannot do much but make my
own guess from my own pov about your experience.

But your eating disorder, say, would be about someting
eating at you. (sorry, could not resist)

If I were dealing with the harsh cognitive dissonance of
forcing myself to believe lies, well, i am sure it would
come out in various disorders, maybe not the ones
you experienced, then, something.

There must have been tremendous pressure in your
mind, begging for release, and so wonderful for you
that you found it!

 

[Audie]

If the Bible says do A, B and C and you do it and it works (someone is healed, for instance) why would you attribute that to anything other than what you read? It’s specific and not at all vague.

The Bible is testable.

Cool, lets test it.

Can ABC be done under controlled lab conditions?
What can it heal?

 

[Audie]

Experience is real; a subjective moral is not. I see moral as a standard, a law, and some things are right, others are wrong - universally - regardless of opinion.

As I asked elsewhere, could you give us some solid
examples of these universal moral laws?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

If the Bible says do A, B and C and you do it and it works (someone is healed, for instance) why would you attribute that to anything other than what you read? It’s specific and not at all vague.

The Bible is testable.

Except what if the exact same thing happens with the Torah, the Qur'an, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Satanic Bible, the Book of Mormon, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and Eat, Pray, Love? Which one should we believe?

 

[Audie]

Except what if the exact same thing happens with the Torah, the Qur'an, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Satanic Bible, the Book of Mormon, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and Eat, Pray, Love? Which one should we believe?

Your different books are fine but they do not prescribe
healing techniques. (heal what??)

Unless the healing spoken of is an ordinary result of
standard practice ABCD like mom or the doctor would do, them it means nothing.

IF one religious practice with its own ABC can do
something extraordinary, then, investigate that.

If various religions with different practices get the same
results, then, investigate what that means.

If no consistent results can be obtained under
controlled conditions, then, what does that mean?