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Can Randomness and Chance cause the Evolution of life?

Libski

Member
First to say that we are all so happy for you, that the
burden you'd suffered under is lifted, and you feel
peace and happiness.

I am far from peace and happiness in my own life, for
my own reasons. You've done well.

To what you said about being an atheist, I wonder if you mean you were raised with some religion, and then fell away from it?

Curious too, what contradictions you see in atheism.
I seen none, so, what am I missing?

I can only guess what layers of lies you may have been
told, or told yourself, Care to share?

One difference I see in us-I always doubt.

Another, I dont agree at all that "subjective" means it does not exist. i'd sa rather than "objective" morality
is an illusion, and no example can be given.

I am no psychologist or psychiatrist, still less a
tele-psychologist, so I cannot do much but make my
own guess from my own pov about your experience.

But your eating disorder, say, would be about someting
eating at you. (sorry, could not resist)

If I were dealing with the harsh cognitive dissonance of
forcing myself to believe lies, well, i am sure it would
come out in various disorders, maybe not the ones
you experienced, then, something.

There must have been tremendous pressure in your
mind, begging for release, and so wonderful for you
that you found it!


Are you okay? Is there anything (besides God :)) that could help? Having no peace makes everything difficult.

Thanks for your kind words - it’s really good to be free. I had been on an eating plan for two years but some days I wouldn’t leave the house because I felt like I was drowning in my own head, so self-conscious and anxious. All that is gone now, thank God.

I was raised a Catholic. I stopped believing when I was old enough to see that it’s a business.

Contradictions in my views as an atheist? Equality - based on what? We’re animals but eat other animals, are we all equal? Are sports players equal? On what basis are we to be treated equally? Yet, I was always advocating for equality.

I was “selfless” for selfish reasons because I was the centre of my world. It’s nice being away from the “me, me, meee’s”.

As a believer I now see that we all have equal value; I serve others and I don’t think about myself.

I also couldn’t explain evolution to anyone and found it hard to accept that someone found tissue in dinosaur bones that are suggested as being millions of years old. I believed that a Big Bang created everything and that everything came from nothing. I blindly trusted others’ view.(not suggesting any other atheists had my views).

I know I had more contradictions but I can’t think of them right now.

Cognitive dissonance? No, I just had an eating disorder. I saw it as a kind of self-harm yet it was compulsive. I now know that it was spiritual.

Whenever people mentioned God I would feel annoyed and even angry - yet claim to believe in tolerance.

Finally, seeing peace in believers made me rethink everything. They all had peace.

Are things going badly for you? Is there anything that I can help with? :)
 

Libski

Member
Except what if the exact same thing happens with the Torah, the Qur'an, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the Satanic Bible, the Book of Mormon, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and Eat, Pray, Love? Which one should we believe?

Only one is testable.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
Actually no, probability cannot do anything. Probability is simply descriptive of the likelyhood something will occur given certain 'conditions' estimated using a range of values from zero, will not happen, to one if it is certain. Probabulity is always limited by given set of 'conditions.'

I think people who do not believe in evolution seem to always miss is the idea of how many times the dice are rolled. Just because something is improbable doesn't mean it is not going to happen. What makes improbably events occur is how many times an attempt is made. If there trillions of bubbles over billions of years forming in pools with protein chains at some point, even though it is extremely improbably, the right mixture will form and cellular life is born. It's all a matter of how many attempts are made to achieve an improbably event. People who are against evolution never talk about how the process could possibly have occurred. If you buy 30 million lottery tickets your chances of winning increase dramatically.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
I think I agree with that but I don't get your point.o_O

It is entirely possible that life could have used a genetic molecule other than DNA. We shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that DNA is the only way life can work just because that is how life works on one planet out of billions in the galaxy and in one galaxy out of billions.
 

dfnj

Well-Known Member
I was “selfless” for selfish reasons because I was the centre of my world. It’s nice being away from the “me, me, meee’s”.
As a believer I now see that we all have equal value; I serve others and I don’t think about myself.

The essence of being an adult is having the capacity to take care of all your own needs. And then even further, having capacity of taking care of others, but not at the expense of one's own needs, is the highest form of maturity.
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
If the Bible says do A, B and C and you do it and it works (someone is healed, for instance) why would you attribute that to anything other than what you read? It’s specific and not at all vague.

The Bible is testable.

A sugar pill is often used in drug trials as a placebo, and people report feeling better after taking a sugar pill. Do we then conclude that sugar pills are effective against disease the drug trial is testing, or do we recognize that the placebo effect is real? Could we also recognize that some conditions clear up on their own?
 

Libski

Member
The essence of being an adult is having the capacity to take care of all your own needs. And then even further, having capacity of taking care of others, but not at the expense of one's own needs, is the highest form of maturity.

God looks after my needs and I look after others. Christian maturity means never getting offended, being slow to anger and only getting angry with sin - not people. It sees a partner’s betrayal as the partner needing help, as opposed to feeling hurt and being a victim. I love the Bible description of love - love is patient, love is kind... etc. completely different to worldly love which is just need, not love.
 

Libski

Member
A sugar pill is often used in drug trials as a placebo, and people report feeling better after taking a sugar pill. Do we then conclude that sugar pills are effective against disease the drug trial is testing, or do we recognize that the placebo effect is real? Could we also recognize that some conditions clear up on their own?


Like cancer? How would that be possible?
 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Like cancer? How would that be possible?

Cancers naturally go into remission all of the time.

Are you saying that if you follow biblical instructions that a cancer is cured 100% of the time? If so, that would be pretty remarkable. It would also raise some serious moral questions due to the fact that these healers are not opening hospitals and giving people these treatments.
 

Libski

Member
Why? Who says? Always wrong?

God?

"God" did it, a lot, in the stories.

And told people to go do it.


God drowning people to get rid of sin makes no odds to those who died - their fate for eternity after life was set anyway. Before Jesus, they would all remain separated from God. Sin separates man from God.

People generally accept that it’s wrong to kill - although some believe that legal killing of a killer is okay - but that’s a contradiction.
 

Libski

Member
Cancers naturally go into remission all of the time.

Are you saying that if you follow biblical instructions that a cancer is cured 100% of the time? If so, that would be pretty remarkable. It would also raise some serious moral questions due to the fact that these healers are not opening hospitals and giving people these treatments.

Hospitals aren’t welcoming - they ask us to leave. Non-believers can get very angry, and that’s spiritual.

 

Thermos aquaticus

Well-Known Member
Hospitals aren’t welcoming - they ask us to leave. Non-believers can get very angry, and that’s spiritual.

Why aren't you opening your own hospitals? You have this supposed power to heal anyone with cancer, yet you stand by and do nothing?

Do these procedures heal cancers 100% of the time? 10%? 1%?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Are you okay? Is there anything (besides God :)) that could help? Having no peace makes everything difficult.

Thanks for your kind words - it’s really good to be free. I had been on an eating plan for two years but some days I wouldn’t leave the house because I felt like I was drowning in my own head, so self-conscious and anxious. All that is gone now, thank God.

I was raised a Catholic. I stopped believing when I was old enough to see that it’s a business.

Contradictions in my views as an atheist? Equality - based on what? We’re animals but eat other animals, are we all equal? Are sports players equal? On what basis are we to be treated equally? Yet, I was always advocating for equality.

I was “selfless” for selfish reasons because I was the centre of my world. It’s nice being away from the “me, me, meee’s”.

As a believer I now see that we all have equal value; I serve others and I don’t think about myself.

I also couldn’t explain evolution to anyone and found it hard to accept that someone found tissue in dinosaur bones that are suggested as being millions of years old. I believed that a Big Bang created everything and that everything came from nothing. I blindly trusted others’ view.(not suggesting any other atheists had my views).

I know I had more contradictions but I can’t think of them right now.

Cognitive dissonance? No, I just had an eating disorder. I saw it as a kind of self-harm yet it was compulsive. I now know that it was spiritual.

Whenever people mentioned God I would feel annoyed and even angry - yet claim to believe in tolerance.

Finally, seeing peace in believers made me rethink everything. They all had peace.

Are things going badly for you? Is there anything that I can help with? :)


Having no peace makes everything difficult.

Depends on your personality. If things are too peaceful
I stir them up.
At peace with myself, no. I've a long way to go on that.
Thanks for the thoughts, but it is my road, for me alone.


Contradictions in my views as an atheist? Equality - based on what? We’re animals but eat other animals, are we all equal?

Raised as a Catholic, so, you never really were an
atheist. That tells much about your conflicts, right there.

As for "equality", that is a word with many meanings.
One must avoid equivocation. On any physical parameter, none of us are equal. On the basis of
inherent worth, equality as a human being, we hold this belief to be self evident. No need to be a Christian to see that. One neednt say more.

Evolution..I am not at all surprised you could not explain it. Why would you expect yourself to be able to? It is not your field. It is not simple-simple.

I blindly trusted others’ view.(not suggesting any other atheists had my views).

First off, just from your saying that I know you were
taught / learned no science whatever. None.

Blind trust is anathema to science. It is the opposite of science. Trusting authority just because it is authority is not science. Memorizing is not science. Passing every test with an A is not science.

LEARNING science in requires that you UNDERSTAND it.

Explain it to yourself, in your own words. Find examples about you. If you do not understand it, the best you have is cut n paste, depending on how well you memorize.

Doing science,...I could go on in similar vein but you are not going to be doing science.

My point is just that you actually know nothing and never did know anything about evolution, or science of any sort. Sorry-ah, as we say in HK, but that is so.
Same for countless millions who also thought they learned some science.

Science is a culture of doubt. Not blind belief. Not
blind anything. Eyes wide open doubt. No authorities.

Second-
evolution has nothing at all to do with being an atheist or a piano player, or a Catholic or a Zen master. Zero.

No more than auto mechanics does.

If some sect of some religion decides that there are no cars, or that evolution does not suit their beliefs, fine.

That is a lot to take in. Up to you if you wish to.
But if you are going to say things, doubt or believe things, it is well to know the topic. :D

Anyway, the only contradiction you brought up was
that your current faith is in opposition to the theory of evolution. That is a very limited sort of contradiction, and has nothing to do with atheism.

Lemme know when you think of some in atheism!
I am always interested to learn things.











 

Audie

Veteran Member
The essence of being an adult is having the capacity to take care of all your own needs. And then even further, having capacity of taking care of others, but not at the expense of one's own needs, is the highest form of maturity.

Who says it is the highest? You got that on authority?
 

Libski

Member
Why aren't you opening your own hospitals? You have this supposed power to heal anyone with cancer, yet you stand by and do nothing?

Do these procedures heal cancers 100% of the time? 10%? 1%?

You assume that we do nothing but we’re always going out on the streets, asking people if we can lay hands and pray for them. Not everyone lets us, even if they’re in pain.

And some don’t believe afterwards. One woman said to me “it must be the way I’m standing, that’s why my pain left me”.

100% of the time? For me? No. For others, yes. Jesus said that you need two things - belief and no traditions. Then it is successful. God wants people to be healed because that gives them the opportunity to be saved. They see God move. He wants everyone to be saved.
 
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