Can Real Peace Exist between Christianity and Islam?

[arielmessenger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by arielmessenger
Why on earth do I need to quote the Quran to make a point anyone on earth who has access to international news can verify?

"Because it is an authority on what is and is not our religion not what happens on the nightly news, so when you make a statement about islam, as I and many others have said it must be from the Quran and the authentic sunnah in the Messengers context. that is what is Islam."

I told you I am not playing that game. I told you I do not need to quote the Quran in order to make a perfectly valid judgment about Islam and Muslims. The religion inspires killers of Muslims and non-Muslims. It is known throughout the world because each and every day on the news is news of Muslims somewhere in the world killing somebody.

You, my Muslim friend are free to hide you head in the sand and pretend sticking to the Quran statements and who's got the right interpretation, etc. will relieve you of moral responsibility for your fellow Muslim killers we all see on TV every night but I am not about to enter into your cacoon where you try to screen off any reality of what modern Muslims are doing when they read their Qurans.

Have you read Das Kapital or Mein Kampf or Mao's little red book? Do you need to read these and debate a Communist or a Nazi to know by the record of history these ideologies are evil because they inspire believers to commit atrocities? How long are you going to stand back and apologize for a book that obviously continues to inspire bloodshed in the name of its God?

I am trying to get you to think outside Muhammad's box. I am trying to get you not to think like a clone of Muhammad but think for yourself. That's why I don't want to get into debate about interpretations of Muhammad's book. The book and culture has mesmerized you already and only by seeing Muhammad and Islam as non-Muslims see it, see it in all its uglyness on TV every night, so that you understand we non-Muslims find absolutely nothing "noble" about the Quran, certainly nothing in it to justify Muslim illusion that Muhammad gave them a religion of peace.

 

[arielmessenger]

Islam is only valid as a moral authority by its weakest link which is the words of Muhammad that continue to inspire acts of violence against others.

The weakest links have been pointed out many times, e.g. the various verses in the Quran telling Muslims to kill others such as these--

2:10--"As for those who deny Islam...they shall be the faggots for the Fire of Hell."

9:123--"Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you."

9:5--"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

9: 29--"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."


9:29--"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

3: 85--"Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."

5: 11--"And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell"


8:12--"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

3.151--"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"


22: 9--"As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."

47: 4--"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

Now I'm sure Muslims here will go to great lengths to "prove" these verses are not saying what they say which is to urge Muslims to commit acts of violence against others but history proves this is mere subtrafuge. The reality is that Muslim killers do read their Qurans and do take these verses literally as mandates to kill.

An author of such verses has to take responsibility for what his words cause. Muhammad is not here but Muslims are here. It's time they take moral responsibility for Muslims acting out the violence they've been inspired to commit by obeying Muhammad's words. We non-Muslims await that day when Muslims will take moral responsibility for Muslim acts of violence. No more "well, you Christians are worse" crap because no modern Western democracy allows Christian theology to rule society. We've learned that lesson dealing with the RCC attempt at world domination, a lesson of what happens when society lets itself be government by religious tenets of one faith, a lesson which Muslims still have yet to learn.

 

[RCD1950]

Islam is only valid as a moral authority by its weakest link which is the words of Muhammad that continue to inspire acts of violence against others.

The weakest links have been pointed out many times, e.g. the various verses in the Quran telling Muslims to kill others such as these--

2:10--"As for those who deny Islam...they shall be the faggots for the Fire of Hell."

9:123--"Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you."

9:5--"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

9: 29--"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."


9:29--"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

3: 85--"Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."

5: 11--"And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell"


8:12--"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

3.151--"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"


22: 9--"As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."

47: 4--"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

Now I'm sure Muslims here will go to great lengths to "prove" these verses are not saying what they say which is to urge Muslims to commit acts of violence against others but history proves this is mere subtrafuge. The reality is that Muslim killers do read their Qurans and do take these verses literally as mandates to kill.

An author of such verses has to take responsibility for what his words cause. Muhammad is not here but Muslims are here. It's time they take moral responsibility for Muslims acting out the violence they've been inspired to commit by obeying Muhammad's words. We non-Muslims await that day when Muslims will take moral responsibility for Muslim acts of violence. No more "well, you Christians are worse" crap because no modern Western democracy allows Christian theology to rule society. We've learned that lesson dealing with the RCC attempt at world domination, a lesson of what happens when society lets itself be government by religious tenets of one faith, a lesson which Muslims still have yet to learn.

Amen! It would be an atrocity to censure critiques such as this one. In my nation (US), political correctness has almost destroyed the credibility of the public dialouge and the ability for the spoken word (Truth) to have any chance at averting the onminous threats that arise.
Debating on the computer -- of the which I am a novice -- is worthwhile and personally educational, but it is high time that those adherrents to the 'peaceful' religion of Islam (if it is such) began an all out war against those of their faith who choose the bomb over the computer (debate).
My greatest fear (as a Christian) is that radical Islam will force me to either turn my cheek and sacrifice my children and grandchildren (and I do have the ability to make that choice)...or vote and support the leader who will surely arise in our country, after a major terrorist hit, and call out loud for that 'unconsciencable solution' about which a lot of the citizenry already speak of in private circles (thanks to pc). The compassionate war fought in Iraq -- and the results -- has reinforced the idea that there can and will be no peace between Christianity and Islam outside of that which was realized after annihilating the fascist ideaologies of Hitler and Hirohito.
It is imperative that the kind and loving spirits who worship under Islam and bear witness on this forum, do not submit and attempt to defend the indefensible. The plain folk in this nation -- of which I am one -- are not necessarily represented by the 'civil' dialouge of our ego worshiping leaders. In fact, few would sacrifice even the family pet to avert no-holds-barred war upon those who both torment and enable our tormentors by defending the verses above, much less acting upon them. Shame, and know that both your Father and mine will not turn a blind eye to such moral cowardice. Not that we(Christians) are not hippocrites also(that's why we are Christians)...but that's a different subject.
I kneel before those Muslims who, are charged by their prophet to tolerate my legitimate belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and let Allah render my portion in the day of judgment. But I bear witness that the American people are not a strong people. We have become weak and decadent in our 'prosperity'.
About 50 years ago my foster father -- not the wisest or strongest of men -- once told me that it was not a strong man that I should fear...because a strong man has a choice. It is the weak, who have little ability to bear pain, who will blindly strike out with no mercy. I know our people.
I beg of Islam to bridle those who would push our anti-thetical religions to Armageddon, and I pray for your safety in that dangerous (and bloody) enterprise. And most of all I do not doubt the sincerity of the good Muslims on this forum. I look forward -- after the 'fiery trial that shall try our faith' to embracing you in that peaceable kingdom. You would find that I am a really nice guy to be around. Love and best wishes.

ps I'm new here, and I hope my 'redneck' style does not undermine either the sincerity, or the importance of my words. We are who we are.

 

[gnostic]

Can Real Peace Exist between Christianity and Islam?

Well, of course.

Only if they leave their Bible and Qur'an at home.

Oh, and if they don't mention Jesus or Muhammad.

In fact, the only subject they should talk about is the weather. :foot:

:slap:

OW!

 

[maro]

Islam is only valid as a moral authority by its weakest link which is the words of Muhammad that continue to inspire acts of violence against others.

The weakest links have been pointed out many times, e.g. the various verses in the Quran telling Muslims to kill others such as these--

2:10--"As for those who deny Islam...they shall be the faggots for the Fire of Hell."

9:123--"Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you."

9:5--"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

9: 29--"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."


9:29--"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

3: 85--"Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."

5: 11--"And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell"


8:12--"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

3.151--"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"


22: 9--"As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."

47: 4--"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

Now I'm sure Muslims here will go to great lengths to "prove" these verses are not saying what they say which is to urge Muslims to commit acts of violence against others but history proves this is mere subtrafuge. The reality is that Muslim killers do read their Qurans and do take these verses literally as mandates to kill.

An author of such verses has to take responsibility for what his words cause. Muhammad is not here but Muslims are here. It's time they take moral responsibility for Muslims acting out the violence they've been inspired to commit by obeying Muhammad's words. We non-Muslims await that day when Muslims will take moral responsibility for Muslim acts of violence. No more "well, you Christians are worse" crap because no modern Western democracy allows Christian theology to rule society. We've learned that lesson dealing with the RCC attempt at world domination, a lesson of what happens when society lets itself be government by religious tenets of one faith, a lesson which Muslims still have yet to learn.

First , the holy quran are not the words of Muhammed , Mr .Prophet or Messenger or whatever you are
they are the words of god

and when it comes to interpretation of the Holy quran you have to follow the rules followed by the muslim scholars when they write the explanation ( tafseer ) of the quran

and one of these basic rules , is that we should bring all verses talking about one topic (Gihad ,for example ) , Put them side by side , in order to get the right meaning , and the real messege

The concept of gihad in islam , is very well defined ,based on the overall interpretation of the verses

Gihad in islam , has 3 parts , Fighting against one's self to obey God , Fighting to defend our lands against invaders ( like what happened with the mongols , the crusades ,and the jews ,right now ) , and the last gihad is to spread the word

There is no justification in islam to start violence and aggression, towards others , with no reason

and even , if there are some ignorant who understand the quran according to their own wishes , and not in a scientific way , that suits that great holy book , then they are the ones who will have to answer for that in the judgment day

if you have already got how can one deal with the quran( which i doubt ) ,then you will have to see that ,


"Fight in the way of Allāh those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allāh does not like transgressors. (2:90)"

"Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allāh. But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors (2 :93)"

Can peace exist between islam and christianity ?
first i neve thought the problem is islam and christianity ,
there are a lot of christians on the muslim land enjoying all their civil rights , and vice versa
i think the problem is the west and the middle east ,
the problem i s how they keep interfering in the internal affairs of the middle east countries , for their own agenda

but islam never forbidden us from being kind and just to other people,


"Allāh does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allāh loves those who act justly.(8) (chapter 60)

 

[wizanda]

The problem is not Islam (I bow to the way of peace) finding away to work with Christianity, Christianity needs abolishing by all of us, Christ is true, the Quran states this, yet I also find that John, Paul, and Simon are false and all stood against Christ.
The end of revelation and beginning is forged also to imply things as the church wants.
So a true Islamic just wants the truth, Christians believe they have this from following the lies and not Christ.
So unless the world first understands, what it is I am trying to fix, then these stand as opposites.
The Quran wants one God, with true prophets in the Bible and to me I would think everyone does.
Yet so many years have gone by, with nothing changing that now many will argue the case of Christ with Pharisee words entirely.

So when the world sees this that the Pharisee John, Paul and Simon are false testimony, then maybe we might get some where.

As for the case on Muslims, the Quran states that is these are they who ardently fight against faith, not a religion and it is wrong to imply they are the same thing.

 

[TashaN]

Islam is only valid as a moral authority by its weakest link which is the words of Muhammad that continue to inspire acts of violence against others.

That's your wishy silly thoughts only. You just keep going talking nonsense. You don't know who is prophet Mohammed.

The weakest links have been pointed out many times, e.g. the various verses in the Quran telling Muslims to kill others such as these--

Oh, finally you are trying to prove somthing and dare to quote my scriptures. That's a good start.

First of all, why don't we start with cleaning your mess and Your interpretations which I believe are incorrect?

I'll start with providing you with the correct translation for these verses (some verses even are totally different dude).

2:10--"As for those who deny Islam...they shall be the faggots for the Fire of Hell."

In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: and grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves). (Quran 2:10)

Do they match?

I guess you are whether a big liar and deceiver or just an ignorant person who was brain washed.

9:123--"Oh ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers and let them find harshness in you."

O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him. (Quran 9:123)

Murder huh?

9:5--"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

Why didn't you post the whole verse Mr. Prophet?

Ops, i thought those who are willing to be prophets must tell the truth always.

Oh, my bad, it's 2007 and anything can happen, who knows !

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 9:5)

9: 29--"Fight those who do not believe in God and the last day... and fight People of the Book, who do not accept the religion of truth (Islam) until they pay tribute by hand, being inferior."

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Quran 9:29)

inferior? :areyoucra

3: 85--"Whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him; in the next world he shall be among the losers."

If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (Quran 3:85)

5: 11--"And as for those who disbelieve and reject Our Signs, they are the people of Hell"

That's so lame.

O ye who believe! call in remembrance the favour of Allah unto you when certain men formed the design to stretch out their hands against you, but (Allah) held back their hands from you: so fear Allah. And on Allah let Believers put (all) their trust. (Quran 5:11)

8:12--"I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them."

[12] Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them."


[13] This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: if any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (Quran 8:12-13)

3.151--"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve"

[151] Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority; their abode will be the Fire; and evil is the home of the wrong-doers! (Quran 3:151)

22: 9--"As for the unbelievers for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."

My God !! What are you doing man?

[9] (Disdainfully) bending his side, in order to lead (men) astray from the Path of Allah; for him there is disgrace in this life, and on the Day of Judgment We shall make him taste the Penalty of burning (Fire). (Quran 22:9)

47: 4--"When you meet the unbelievers, strike off their heads; then when you have made wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives."

[4] Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; at length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost. (Quran 47:4)

Now I'm sure Muslims here will go to great lengths to "prove" these verses are not saying what they say

No, the REAL VERSES are saying what they say but the FAKE VERSES which you provided are not.

Stop fooling around.

If you were another person, i would explain the verses but with you, i won't even bother myself to explain a thing to you wasting my time.

For those who wants to understand what does some verses mean "in context" they can check this link.

Slay them wherever ye find them "killing the infidel"
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36419

 

[love]

I find the Lord Jesus Christ as the only true example for mankind. He did not come to seek riches, or earthly powers (though He was offered all these things by the evil one). He spent His short time on earth showing us the hardness in our hearts. That we should love our neighbors (as this is pleasing unto God). He did not call for wars or hurting you fellow man. He showed us the importance of the little ones (children), that anyone who instructs them in the ways of war or destruction will have a very bad day on the day of judgement. Through out history so called Christians have drifted from these basic teachings in their greed and ignorance. Even though they had their worldly desires, in the end God will say I did not know you. Any leaders of any religion who teach their young to strap on bombs and kill innocent people for an immediate passage to paradise to advance their cause and their power will surely have their day of reckoning. With advancement in knowledge and history as a gulde, reason should dictate an enlightenment that should allow all of us to live together more peacefuly. But it seems that the old enemy is still alive and well. The hardness in our hearts.

 

[sister M]

Arielmessenger

Why on earth do I need to quote the Quran to make a point anyone on earth who has access to international news can verify?

Why not? Does the news verify the Qur'an? If not, why not?

I can cite a large number of Quranic verses that historically and current inspire Muslims to kill others.

One can find inspiration from whatever, if that is one's goal. The important thing should be on this issue, does theQur'an and ahadith promote it?

It is part and parcel of my general criticism of Muhammad's Islam that he has taught Muslims to be clones of his own mind unable to think rationally about religious matters on their own steam.

Must correct you here. The Prophet Muhammad saws was the messenger of Islam, forwarding what was given to him from Allah SWT.

Clones of his own mind? How come? I can't remember I have read that. But I have read on the other hand that he said for example 'pray as you see me pray'. Nothing to do wiht cloning. Instead just like Islam teaches, as an example for Muslims.

I'm sorry to be one in a long line of iconoclasts but Muhammad must be taken off his pedestol before Muslim minds can be freed to think rationally.

Muslims do not worship Prophet Muhammad saws, and that is what you are implying. It is a very grave sin in Islam, to worship or call upon someone else than Allah SWT.

So how come you think Muslims cannot think?

I can only point to the problem but only Muslims themselves can overcome their religious cult indoctrinations, most of who have receive it cradle to grave in Muslim lands.

How about all that do enter/embrace Islam - how do you explain away us/them? What is our problem?

 

[carlosox]

Thanks people. It was an exhilirating discussion. The man in the street seems to know that the different religions are mere guides to help us fight our real enemies like lust, anger, greed, attachment, pride and envy( called the six crocodiles in the river of life ). Those, who try to claim that theirs is the only true religion, are the ones who are losing the battle with these crocodiles and want to divert their attention elsewhere so its easier to live with their defeat.
Every religion gives its believers the tools for salvation, and I believe salvation can be found through any of the major religions.
The sooner we recognize this and put it into practice the better. Failure to do so will result in a world that you and me do not want to imagine even in our worst nightmares.
Peace to all.

Regards

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

I find the Lord Jesus Christ as the only true example for mankind.

How exactly? From his example how am I to deal with wife and mother in law relations.

He did not come to seek riches, or earthly powers (though He was offered all these things by the evil one). He spent His short time on earth showing us the hardness in our hearts. That we should love our neighbors (as this is pleasing unto God). He did not call for wars or hurting you fellow man. He showed us the importance of the little ones (children), that anyone who instructs them in the ways of war or destruction will have a very bad day on the day of judgement.

So did the Messenger of islam.

Through out history so called Christians have drifted from these basic teachings in their greed and ignorance. Even though they had their worldly desires, in the end God will say I did not know you.

Really, how should they correct this exactly. where is the source of knowledge that will guide the christians from this state they are in.

Any leaders of any religion who teach their young to strap on bombs and kill innocent people for an immediate passage to paradise to advance their cause and their power will surely have their day of reckoning.

who does this exactly?

With advancement in knowledge and history as a gulde, reason should dictate an enlightenment that should allow all of us to live together more peacefuly. But it seems that the old enemy is still alive and well. The hardness in our hearts.

I could not agree more.

that is why people need to discover true Islam, and learn the teachings of the Prophets from Adam to Muhammed.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Amen! It would be an atrocity to censure critiques such as this one. In my nation (US), political correctness has almost destroyed the credibility of the public dialouge and the ability for the spoken word (Truth) to have any chance at averting the onminous threats that arise.
Debating on the computer -- of the which I am a novice -- is worthwhile and personally educational, but it is high time that those adherrents to the 'peaceful' religion of Islam (if it is such) began an all out war against those of their faith who choose the bomb over the computer (debate).

You are just as misinformed as ariel messenger, what is your evidence that Islam began an ll out war against those of their faith who choose the bomb..

My greatest fear (as a Christian) is that radical Islam will force me to either turn my cheek and sacrifice my children and grandchildren (and I do have the ability to make that choice)...or vote and support the leader who will surely arise in our country, after a major terrorist hit, and call out loud for that 'unconsciencable solution' about which a lot of the citizenry already speak of in private circles (thanks to pc). The compassionate war fought in Iraq -- and the results -- has reinforced the idea that there can and will be no peace between Christianity and Islam outside of that which was realized after annihilating the fascist ideaologies of Hitler and Hirohito.

You are deluting the fact that radical Islam is not islam and the true form of Isla is what will rule. everyone will worship only one god.

It is imperative that the kind and loving spirits who worship under Islam and bear witness on this forum, do not submit and attempt to defend the indefensible.

Defend what exactly? when has any of the muslims on this forum defended radical Islam as you call it.

The plain folk in this nation -- of which I am one -- are not necessarily represented by the 'civil' dialouge of our ego worshiping leaders. In fact, few would sacrifice even the family pet to avert no-holds-barred war upon those who both torment and enable our tormentors by defending the verses above,

Defending the verses above? What is there to defend. If your context for the above verses in the Quran are not in the context of how the Messenger and his companions understood it then you will be as lost as ariel messenger.

much less acting upon them. Shame, and know that both your Father and mine will not turn a blind eye to such moral cowardice. Not that we(Christians) are not hippocrites also(that's why we are Christians)...but that's a different subject.

? ?

I kneel before those Muslims who, are charged by their prophet to tolerate my legitimate belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and let Allah render my portion in the day of judgment.

Islam preaches the tolerance of any relgion as long as the non muslim inhabitants pay the jizyah and under the rules of common decencey and judgement of the khalifah, as far as your belief in Jesus being divine that is something that is still debatable amongst even the christians.

I beg of Islam to bridle those who would push our anti-thetical religions to Armageddon, and I pray for your safety in that dangerous (and bloody) enterprise. And most of all I do not doubt the sincerity of the good Muslims on this forum. I look forward -- after the 'fiery trial that shall try our faith' to embracing you in that peaceable kingdom. You would find that I am a really nice guy to be around. Love and best wishes.

And I beg all those to learn the truth about what is true Islam and who the Prophet of Islam really was and what he really taught, and to define our religion according to how he and his righteous followers whom Allah said he is pleased with understood it.

If you think Islam is what is portrayed on T.V. or what people like those who say horrible things about what our religion says or this is what I think the context is, with no evidence from the Quran or Hadith from the context of the messenger. and no knowledge of the history of the religion or the history of the revelation of the Quran.

then you are like the majority, denying the favors of your Lord and Creator by rejecting the one who taught his people to worship only one God, like the first commandment and to believe in Jesus as being a sign and messenger or messiah of God, who was born miraculously by the will of Allah, and Whom has bestowed powers of healing, forgiveness, life to the dead to his servant whom he sent as mentioned in the bible. He taught the jews to only worship one god and to seek his forgiveness for the sins they have committed.

This is what the Messenger taught us about Issa ibn Maryam, Jesus the son of Mary peace be upon him and his blessed mother.

 

[YmirGF]

Islam preaches the tolerance of any relgion as long as the non muslim inhabitants pay the jizyah and under the rules of common decencey and judgement of the khalifah, as far as your belief in Jesus being divine that is something that is still debatable amongst even the christians.

Hiya Mujahid Mohammed, (Yep, it’s that pesky rat talking again), I have a question for you.

Should non-Muslim countries be allowed to tax Muslims simply because they are Muslims, above and beyond normal taxation that occurs in "modern" non-Muslims nations? If not, would that be because it would be blatant discrimination?

PS: I don't think the "Jesus IS God" discussion is as big a deal as you seem to imply with most practicing Christians. As a rule, it is a "given". Personally, I don't think I have ever spoken to a Christian that did NOT think that Jesus was both a man and God, "the word made into flesh and bone". But perhaps we travel in different circles, lol.

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Hiya Mujahid Mohammed, (Yep, it’s that pesky rat talking again), I have a question for you.

Should non-Muslim countries be allowed to tax Muslims simply because they are Muslims, above and beyond normal taxation that occurs in "modern" non-Muslims nations? If not, would that be because it would be blatant discrimination?

That depends on how the tax system is set up. In Islam there are no sales tax, interest, property taxes etc. You have the government paid tax commanded by Allah in the Quran called Zakat. this money is paid to the Islamic state so that as a citizen I am given my rights of protection and other benefits by the state. Non muslims since they do not have to pay Zakat because it is a Islamic order. they must therefore pay the Jizyah.

So it is hard to answer that question for the tax system in many non muslim countries cannot be legally followed in sharia.

Also you have to remember in America for example since there is a seperation of church and state and freedom of religion is practiced then all the different religions in the land would have to pay a tax to the government if it is to be fair. Not just the Muslims in Non muslims countries. If the U.S. was based on a Christian sharia the yes they would have to pay a tax. Because Christians give 10% I believe in tides.

Remember in Islam the religion is the government.

PS: I don't think the "Jesus IS God" discussion is as big a deal as you seem to imply with most practicing Christians. As a rule, it is a "given". Personally, I don't think I have ever spoken to a Christian that did NOT think that Jesus was both a man and God, "the word made into flesh and bone". But perhaps we travel in different circles, lol.

Again you know as well as I do it is all relative to the Christian you are talking to. some feel that saying it breaks certain commandments like the most important one for example the first one. Ask the JW and certain baptists groups how the they feel about it.

Plus many of the relevant issues that are raised are ignored by them and looked at as no big deal. If it was a big deal they would study it and learn it, and seek the knowledge of it. but the Jesus is God issue and many others are overlooked out of sheer laziness in regards to religious knowledge.

P.s. It is not a issue really I just want them to explain the context from all the verses contained in the scripture meaning each verse that gives a description of God or Jesus is making reference to God or himself it should be consistent with the methodology that he is God. But they are unable to do this because of the scriptural errancies.

 

[Apple Pie]

Christians will never budge from the fact that Christ is the only son of God and that salvation is only possible through him. Muslims on the other hand claim there is no God but Allah, and that Mohammad is His only true messenger.

Hi Carlosox,

Reflect for a moment as to why both faiths would so closely align a "Son" or a "Messenger" with deity...

The fact that they both do, should tell us something vitally important.

One of these two faiths has mis-interpreted their scripture set.

The one that has mis-interpreted their scriptures is Islam.

Modern day Muslims have a misconception as to who their "Muhammad" really is, as told to them within the pages of their Koran.

After careful study, there can be no doubt that the "Muhammad" spoken of in the Koran, is actually not a proper name at all...and is actually an attribute (meaning "praised one"), referring contextually to only the Biblical Jesus Christ!

Thus....the "Mohammad" of the Koran is, in fact, referencing the Biblical Jesus Christ...hence, the near-deity status in which they revere Him is in-line with what we would expect.

Muslims are close...but they missed the total-boat picture.

Christians are the only faith to get the full picture of Jesus Christ.

 

[jmaster78]

this involves all religions not just christianity and Islam, why if we the practicers of the faiths can look at each others religions without detest, if we can make peace with each other and enjoy learning from each other, then why can't our religious leaders? It's the leaders that drive a wedge between the faiths in their constant battle for bigger congregations. They want our souls and make us enemies of each other so stop us "changing camps".

 

[Apostle_Yohanan]

I'm much older than most in RF. I've lived many years in a country in which Islam was the main religion. I'm currently residing in a country where Christianity is the main religion. I often ponder if true peace can ever exist between the two largest religions on earth. Unfortunately, time and again I come to the conclusion that peace can never exist between these religions- at least not in their present forms. The crux of both these religions is that their individual religion is the only religion that is the true, and all others lead to hell. Christians will never budge from the fact that Christ is the only son of God and that salvation is only possible through him. Muslims on the other hand claim there is no God but Allah, and that Mohammad is His only true messenger.
Try as one might, these cardinal principles of both religions prevent any movement to reconcile their beliefs. My conclusion on this matter is that there cannot be any peace between these two religions as long as they exist in their present forms. The present forms of these religions call only for world domination- nothing less.
The time will come I believe, that both these religions will be modified to different forms, possibly by Hinduism and Buddhism, to such states that the radicle beliefs of both will be moderated to an extent where peace is possible betweem them.

Shalom....

hey calosox, I am going to be real with you ,holding no punches and i will give it to you raw the same way that i would want from everybody else on this forum.
carlosox you are right when you say that islam and christianity can,t co-exist.you are wrong when you say that the time will come when both"Will" get to a point that they both will exist by some form of modification.Carlos ,there is only one Supreme being, no one can make me believe that the same creator that hates discord among breathren(Proverbs 6:16-19) will allow two religions with Two different systems to co -exist,even if it's a modified version of the two.No 2 religions will ever co-exist , why? because of different veiws.this is not an example of me and you choosing different orders at your nearest burger king, this is a example of eternal life, something that will make you or break,moral standard of living ,this thing is far more complicated than you and i could ever fathom.as long as there is a inkling of different ideas dealing with a way of life there will be problems. this is not a problem dealing with wheather or not you use a nail or a screw,this isa tremendously bigger issue that deals with that path that one takes in order to reach an everlasting goal,this deals with supernatural issues if you want to believe it or not. belief is what leads us to do the things the way we do it , and if someone brings an idea that is contradicting to that and if the contradiction can't be proving as a truth then there will be problems.Carlos i am one that believes that there is only one way especially when it deals with living and serving one master.Fathers know what i am talking about ,especially when it deals with rules of the house. another man can't come in your house and change your rules .We as man kind did not just get this idea out of the sky YHVH says that he made man in his likeness and in his image,our thoughts,ideas innovention were giving to us by the creator ,it's what we do with the knowledge giving to us that gets us in trouble.Remember carlos One G-D ,One Belief,and that one belief is "His Way" and no other

 

[Baerly]

I'm much older than most in RF. I've lived many years in a country in which Islam was the main religion. I'm currently residing in a country where Christianity is the main religion. I often ponder if true peace can ever exist between the two largest religions on earth. Unfortunately, time and again I come to the conclusion that peace can never exist between these religions- at least not in their present forms. The crux of both these religions is that their individual religion is the only religion that is the true, and all others lead to hell. Christians will never budge from the fact that Christ is the only son of God and that salvation is only possible through him. Muslims on the other hand claim there is no God but Allah, and that Mohammad is His only true messenger.
Try as one might, these cardinal principles of both religions prevent any movement to reconcile their beliefs. My conclusion on this matter is that there cannot be any peace between these two religions as long as they exist in their present forms. The present forms of these religions call only for world domination- nothing less.
The time will come I believe, that both these religions will be modified to different forms, possibly by Hinduism and Buddhism, to such states that the radicle beliefs of both will be moderated to an extent where peace is possible betweem them.
Regards

It is good to seek peace, but if it means compromising truth to achieve peace, it will be short lived. Jesus said think not that I come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace but a sword (Mt.10:34). That sword is the bible (Eph.6:17). Truth is found in the bible (John 17:17). It is that truth which sanctifies and cleanses (John 15:3).

The bible says there is no other gospel (Gal.1:6-9). Jesus said "I am the way,THE TRUTH,and the life,and NO MAN cometh unto the father, but by me (John 14:6).

So I guess it depends if one seeks peace at any price, or if one seeks TRUTH regardless if there will be peace or not. One might compromise truth on earth,but lose his soul in the end. In light of (Mt 10:34) I would want to please God (1Thess.4:1-3).

in love Baerly

 

[Mujahid Mohammed]

Muslims and Christian could live at peace with each other, and individualy, many do. Being at peace doesn't mean agreeing with the other's beliefs. It means not doing harm to each other and helping each other in spite of your different beliefs. In fact, that is a fundamental requirment as taught by Jesus. You know, "Love your neighbor as yourself" Just because so many who call themselves Christians doesn't follow this teaching doesn't make Christianty wrong, or evil, or any other negative thing you can say about about it. Christian teaching says to LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR; PERIOD! So if we who are Christians wish to follow our example, Jesus, we will Love our neighbors. Muslims who seriously wish to follow their leader will follow his teachings. One of his teachings is to kill infidels as stated in the Quoran. That is a requirement as taught by Mohammad. Those who are included as infidels are Christians and Jews. As a result, it is difficult to be at peace with this religion in general when you realize that the true followers of this religion are tryiing to kill you.

If we want to kill all the Christians why did not Omar ibn Khattab when he took over Jerusalem kill all the christians living there. why did he say they and their property are protected.

Learn the true teaching of our religion before you make statments like that. Islam teaches tolerance for all people. It is about the rights of people, it does not matter what you believe if you are living under the protection of the Islamic state the government will defend you even though by law you do not have to fight in the army.

You can be in my crew I will fight all your battles for you and defend you. come on now stop rationalizing what muslims are doing today and associating what muslims out there think. Our religion as I and many others have said is not defined by the actions of people today. It is described through the example of Muhammed and his righteous companions, and the two succeeding generations after that The tabi'een, and tabi tabi'een.

That is our religion how did they treat the jews and christians. Not how Sadam or Osama did it. they are not our role models nor representatives of what is Islam. Just like George Bush, The Crusades, Hitler, david Koresh etc. etc. are not representation of christianity.

 

[yuvgotmel]

Learn the true teaching of our religion before you make statments like that. Islam teaches tolerance for all people. It is about the rights of people, it does not matter what you believe if you are living under the protection of the Islamic state the government will defend you even though by law you do not have to fight in the army.

"Tolerance for all people"? But in Post #187 by "The Truth," he quoted a sentence from the Qu'ran that states that Pagans cannot be tolerated and should even be killed until and unless they change over to Islam.

I recommend, if you haven't done so already, to read a thread that I started addressing cultural (i.e. religious) issues. I do believe, that it is the core of the problem.