Can the dead be contacted according to your tradition?

[Unveiled Artist]

I understand Catholic belief. I was more close to St. Mary and Francis, now that I think of it. However, I haven't heard this from a Catholic:

Saints don't bless us, and normally don't help us directly, unless God specifically permits. He permits and enables them to hear prayers that we address to them asking for their prayers on our behalf.

Saints bless because god works through them. Why wouldn't they (god) bless you the same as the priest absolves you (god)? How can you separate their blessing you from god blessing you?

I do believe in souls of the deceased; so, I do remember Mary helping me as Francis as I wish my confirmed saint, but never really looked into all the saints. I would have picked St. Thomas because of his knack of theology but I got St. Gutrude. Anyway...

The saints are not conjured. Asking a saint to pray for us is the same as asking a person on earth to pray for us.

Saints are brought present to many Catholics by god. Just as I conjure or make present my living mother on earth by giving her a phone call and she happens to pop over here because we decided she come. I influenced her or conjured her by our meeting and by my influence, she appeared as planned. That's conjuring.

Nemocracy, conjure, magic, etc aren't bad words. The only reason why I see these are bad is when a person does it without god as a source. Since god is the source of all of these things done, no matter what you call it, it is still done by god and you do.. still talk to spirits of the deceased in heaven, ask god for blessings and receive them, and pray to ask god to help make appear (for lack of better grammar) your intentions for help. It's all in gods hands, but that doesn't change the definition of the word.

Unless I'm missing something?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

According to the Bible demons are fallen angels and they are very powerful. They have had a lot of their power curbed because they can no longer materialize as they did in Noah's day. That resulted in God stepping in to rectify that situation by eradicating the monstrous children born to them through their union with human women, and forcing their errant fathers back to the spirit realm where he dealt with them by confining them to a spiritually debased condition of restraint known as Tartarus. (2 Peter 2:4-6)

So you are correct...any spirit not of God is a demon....a deceptive spirit.



These "spirits" do not care what you use to summon them, they will come as a result of any invitation, be it tarot cards, spirit mediums, divination, magic, incantations, satanically inspired music, looking for omens or any other thing mentioned in Deuteronomy 18:9-12.

Once you invite them, don't ever try to leave them and search for the true God. They will make you pay.



Fortune telling doesn't just depend on one activity. Whatever the means, it is wrong to use anything that predicts the future if it is not from God.



You got it. They don't care what you use.



You think deceivers come dressed in a uniform for identification?

2 Corinthians 11:14-15:
"And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.  It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

Disguise is their MO. Angels of light are seldom questioned, but wait till they remove the mask.....

What is a minister? A servant. We can make ourselves servants of God's enemies by disobeying his clearly stated commands.

Well, you got a very intensive belief system. Mine is pretty simple that to call it a religion, "religion haters" would say I'm lying but it is. I do half of the things that's either against the bible and/or not in the Bible. But it bothers many Christians (no pun-many christians) that non-believers do not take their support as authority of their claim of what's true and false.

For example, if demons are real/true/fact how can you support your claim to where we both can agree on the criteria of judgement of whether it's true or false?

I remember way back in elementary school where we had the debate club. Before the debate, I think each participant had to bring his support to the "judge" or teacher and both had to agree on the foundation of argument before debating. They can bring whatever else they need but they needed a common ground so when they are judged who wins and who doesn't, they both understand why one wined/lost and how.

In RF Religious Debates, I don't see that often. Bugs the mess out of me.

 

[sovietchild]

There is absolutely no basis in Islam for anyone to claim that he or she can get in touch with the souls or spirits of the dead, whether martyrs, saints or even Messengers of high status, including Prophet Muhammad, and get things done through them. Such a claim is not only preposterous, but totally absurd and must be shunned outright.

Furthermore, the Qur’an is also categorical in its denunciation of those who indulge in speculations concerning matters of the unseen world; it is considered a most heinous offense.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

This is why I really have liked Protestantism, its not something iconic to them.
I never liked one thing that people build with dead in them, on the lives they have taken, or have glorified in it's so called martyrdom, while make religion and money off of people passed & want others to pray to them, and build glorious brick and mortar over the earth.

 

[Deeje]

Well, you got a very intensive belief system. Mine is pretty simple that to call it a religion, "religion haters" would say I'm lying but it is. I do half of the things that's either against the bible and/or not in the Bible.

I take into account that your religious history is Catholicism......that is not what I call Christianity by any stretch of anyone's imagination. IMO it is a complete departure from everything Christ taught.

Doing things that are against Bible teachings is a choice....one that is open to all. But as in the case of our first parents, there is a price to pay for disobedience. It may not come immediately, but it will eventually.

But it bothers many Christians (no pun-many christians) that non-believers do not take their support as authority of their claim of what's true and false.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest. All humans are given the choice to serve God or not. The consequences are clearly stated in the scriptures, but no one stands over anyone with a big stick forcing them to do anything. If you choose the course, then you choose either the penalty or the reward that goes with it. That is pretty simple to me. I am not responsible for anyone's salvation....all I can do is point the way.

For example, if demons are real/true/fact how can you support your claim to where we both can agree on the criteria of judgement of whether it's true or false?

We can't. We each have a belief system to which we subscribe. Time will tell who is on the right path and who is on the dead end. At the end of the day we will all be judged on being ourselves.....who God thinks we are, not just who we think we are.

I remember way back in elementary school where we had the debate club. Before the debate, I think each participant had to bring his support to the "judge" or teacher and both had to agree on the foundation of argument before debating. They can bring whatever else they need but they needed a common ground so when they are judged who wins and who doesn't, they both understand why one wined/lost and how

In RF Religious Debates, I don't see that often. Bugs the mess out of me.

This isn't elementary school and its not real debating......is it? Its more about pitting one set of beliefs against another and allowing the readers to take out of it what they want. It still serves a purpose because it exposes people to a variety of points of view. That is not a bad thing.

 

[meghanwaterlillies]

I seen people nip and even attack people when they painted up a statue and walk down an isle, expected you to pay the virgin. I don't think that's funny.
I went to a church that was odd too. They had the saints or sorry apostles lined up, the virgin in the center. To the left of me was judas Iscariot and to the right was jesus. All the apostles where standing up right. Jesus was on the ground in like a glassy tomb. They all had glassy boxes underneath. They had so much money thrown in of all these apostles and pictures and people walking up and down praying to it. Ironically the one that was filled was judas Iscariot which they said yes it's for money. You pray and give it that for money.
Some of those churches (and this doesn't surprise me actually) , but they were sinking.
To anyone's surprise that was a very good example for me observational and inner wise of what not to do.

 

[Witches_Element]

Yes it is a central part of my tradition and is considered a natural beautiful process to be in touch with the dearly departed!

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Haha.

I take into account that your religious history is Catholicism......that is not what I call Christianity by any stretch of anyone's imagination. IMO it is a complete departure from everything Christ taught.

My religion was Catholicism. I just have a heart break for it since taking the sacraments is not a in-and-out marriage.

What I practice isn't a religion and it's totally against scripture. Just to warn' ya ahead of time.

Doing things that are against Bible teachings is a choice....one that is open to all. But as in the case of our first parents, there is a price to pay for disobedience. It may not come immediately, but it will eventually.

Eh. We differ here severely. Not only in beliefs but the way you present them as facts. Bugs the mess out of me with many Christians. I don't see Catholics do it so much over here. A lot of the protestant non liturgical churches do as if they have an ax to grind or something.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest. All humans are given the choice to serve God or not. The consequences are clearly stated in the scriptures, but no one stands over anyone with a big stick forcing them to do anything. If you choose the course, then you choose either the penalty or the reward that goes with it. That is pretty simple to me. I am not responsible for anyone's salvation....all I can do is point the way.

All we can do is respect and support each other, right?

We can't. We each have a belief system to which we subscribe. Time will tell who is on the right path and who is on the dead end. At the end of the day we will all be judged on being ourselves.....who God thinks we are, not just who we think we are.

That's a weird language "time will tell who is on the right path and who is on the dead end." There's no such thing as the wrong path. You have yours and I have mine. It's not political nor is it a power thing when it comes to religion. It's very peaceful and it accepts everyone where they are at their given faith. Christianity (from what I know and maybe Muslim) are the only ones that don't seem to "get it." Not everything is black and white. Sounds also like slavery (no pun intended).

This isn't elementary school and its not real debating......is it? Its more about pitting one set of beliefs against another and allowing the readers to take out of it what they want. It still serves a purpose because it exposes people to a variety of points of view. That is not a bad thing.

Elementary? I said high school. (Depending on your age, of course).

A read debate comes with supporting evidence on credible argument with common foundation of judging right and wrong.

Let's step it up. Court rooms is a better example if you'd like an adult definition. Lawyers can't present evidence unless the judge and both lawyers agree to the evidence and support presented.

That's a debate.

--

Well, I would hope it does help people learn. I mean I learn a lot from you though your delivery doesn't seem you take what I believe into consideration as facts. I don't have a forceful black/white religion that puts people in bad consequences for not believing what I do. That's silly.

Actually, very silly and illogical. Think about it. Would it be logical for me to assume you should be punished for not knowing my grandparents in spirit when you didn't know them when they were on earth? And given you are an atheist to my grandparents spirits, by what logic do I have to punish you for your genuine ignorance of my faith?

 

[Deeje]

My religion was Catholicism. I just have a heart break for it since taking the sacraments is not a in-and-out marriage.

What I practice isn't a religion and it's totally against scripture. Just to warn' ya ahead of time.

I said a history of Catholicism....I am aware of your departure.

All we can do is respect and support each other, right?

Though I am not in agreement with what you believe I will support your right to free speech and freedom of religion as we all should.

That's a weird language "time will tell who is on the right path and who is on the dead end." There's no such thing as the wrong path. You have yours and I have mine. It's not political nor is it a power thing when it comes to religion. It's very peaceful and it accepts everyone where they are at their given faith. Christianity (from what I know and maybe Muslim) are the only ones that don't seem to "get it." Not everything is black and white. Sounds also like slavery (no pun intended).

I am a very black and white person. I hate mediocrity in anything. I can't stand people who are wishy-washy about important issues of life. "I dunno" just annoys me. I have know what I believe and why I believe it.....that is just me. If I don't know the answer to a question, I will research it until I do, to my own satisfaction.

Elementary? I said high school. (Depending on your age, of course).

You said elementary school actually.....but what does it matter?

Let's step it up. Court rooms is a better example if you'd like an adult definition. Lawyers can't present evidence unless the judge and both lawyers agree to the evidence and support presented.

That's a debate.

I don't think people here are interested in boring debates...they want some 'biffo'

and something they can sink their teeth into.....am I wrong?

Well, I would hope it does help people learn. I mean I learn a lot from you though your delivery doesn't seem you take what I believe into consideration as facts. I don't have a forceful black/white religion that puts people in bad consequences for not believing what I do. That's silly.

I am only passing on information that as a former "Christian" I am surprised that you don't seem to understand. There are just two roads according to Jesus....a cramped and narrow one leads to life and a broad and easy road leads to death. (Matthew 7:13-14) There is your dead end.

Actually, very silly and illogical. Think about it. Would it be logical for me to assume you should be punished for not knowing my grandparents in spirit when you didn't know them when they were on earth? And given you are an atheist to my grandparents spirits, by what logic do I have to punish you for your genuine ignorance of my faith?

We are at a stalemate because I cannot accept that the dead are living, and you cannot accept that the dead are actually dead. There is no common ground at all on that issue....nowhere to go.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

I can find no scripture confirming that Jews ever believed in an immaterial part of man that separated from the body at death.
Since Jesus was Jewish, he did not teach such a thing. Later Jews influenced by hellenic teachings adopted the platonic belief in an immortal soul. The "Church" did too. This is not a Bible teaching.

Jews believed that all the dead went to Sheol, which they did. Every human who ever died prior to Christ’s crucifixion went to Sheol. No one could go to heaven because it was closed to mankind due to the disobedience of Adam and Eve. And no one went to hell because God, in his mercy, did not condemn any of them until they had the opportunity to hear the gospel of salvation.

There were two main parts of Sheol, the pleasant part of it for righteous souls (Bosom of Abraham, paradise) and an unpleasant part for the wicked. The Jews believed that there was a purifying fire in Sheol. They believed, and still believe in the purification of souls after death, as do Catholics, according to scripture. (Sheol still exists, but now for the purpose of purification only, which is why we call it “Purgatory.”)

There are many references to Sheol in the Old Testament, but we learn more about it in the New Testament (where they use the Greek word “Hades” for the same place). Jesus gives us a glimpse of Sheol along with some of the properties of the soul in Luke 16:19-31: the Rich Man and Lazarus both died and they are both in Sheol in this parable. Lazarus is in the pleasant part, the Bosom of Abraham, and the rich man is in the place of punishment or possibly in the purifying fire. There is a divide between them, but they can see and recognize each other. The rich man feels pain and thirst even though he has no physical body. In verse 24, He references body parts which no longer exist, but are still represented in the soul: "Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire."

So the soul has a form without material substance, sight, hearing, sensations, etc. without sensory organs, and a conscious mind independent of the physical brain, as we learn here from Jesus’ own words.

Jesus descended into Sheol after dying on the cross and preached to the dead, as he said he would:
John 5:25-29 - "Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live."

And as Saint Peter referenced: 1 Peter 4:6: "For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

The dead "sleep" in their graves awaiting a resurrection. (John 5:28-29) Jesus calls the dead from their graves, not from the spirit realm.

I also referenced John 5:28-29 above. The word "sleep" is not in those verses. And Jesus does not call the dead from their graves. He judges the dead. Hebrews 9:27 "… it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment." This is called the particular judgment, which occurs for each person after death. There is also the general judgment or final judgment which comes at the end of time. Souls will receive new, perfected bodies at that time. The saved will have glorified bodies with special properties as described by Saint Paul.

Can we have scripture for that belief too?

"Saints" are not those appointed by the Catholic Church, they are individually "chosen" by God for the privilege of ruling with Christ as 'kings and priests' in his heavenly kingdom. These ones are raised first, but not until Christ's return, according to the apostle Paul. (Revelation 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)

The Kingdom of God with Christ as King and with the assistance of his "chosen ones", will rule over earthly subjects. (Revelation 21:2-4) God did not create humans to live in heaven...he created them to enjoy everlasting life on earth. God's first purpose will be brought to completion by means of the Kingdom. (Isaiah 55:11) All that Adam lost for his children will be returned to us.

You are right that saints are not appointed by the Catholic Church, and no one ever said they are. Certain saints were chosen by God for specific purposes in their earthly lives and in heaven, but saints are not "chosen ones to rule over earthly subjects."

In early Christianity, Martyrs and especially pious and venerated Christians were called saints by public acclaim. In the 10th century, the Church initiated the canonization process. Canonization is a long and meticulous process of acquiring an assurance that the person in question is in heaven. It requires validated miracles, such as miraculous healings occurring as a result of intercession by that person in response to the prayers of people on earth.

The word "saint" comes from the Latin "Sanctus," which means "holy." And as I said earlier, every angel and human soul in heaven is a saint because they are all holy. If they weren't, they would not be there.

God did not create humans to live in heaven...he created them to enjoy everlasting life on earth.

No, he created them with the intent that they would not experience physical death; that they would be taken to heaven in body and soul when their time on earth was done. That was before union between man and God was broken by Adam and Eve's disobedience. Christ restored that union and made heaven available to us, but physical death remains.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Nemocracy, conjure, magic, etc aren't bad words. The only reason why I see these are bad is when a person does it without god as a source. Since god is the source of all of these things done, no matter what you call it, it is still done by god and you do.. still talk to spirits of the deceased in heaven, ask god for blessings and receive them, and pray to ask god to help make appear (for lack of better grammar) your intentions for help. It's all in gods hands, but that doesn't change the definition of the word.

Unless I'm missing something?

Conjuring, magic, witchcraft, taro cards, and all that stuff are intended to satisfy some desire without God or even in opposition to God's will.
The occult is part of Satan's world, and it is Satan who makes it work.

 

[Forever_Catholic]

Saints bless because god works through them. Why wouldn't they (god) bless you the same as the priest absolves you (god)? How can you separate their blessing you from god blessing you?

Well okay, I guess you could call it a blessing as the term is used in the general or earthly sense, but not as in to sanctify, in the sense that a priest is given Christ's authority to bless a person or house or object, etc. We know from a private revelation given to Saint Faustina that even an angel does not have the authority to hear a confession, ruling out the authority to absolve sins, which a priest does have. Priestly authorities are not given to angels or saints, and there would be no need for them to have those authorities. I've never heard of even Saint Mary blessing anyone (although she does have the authority to dispense graces, which she obtains for us from Jesus). She could ask for a blessing on someone, and then it would come from Jesus directly.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Nope, nothing in my tradition has it. It is just that the closest thing is that the dead while carried to the grave can hear what's going on around them including crying, prayers and footsteps of those around them. I'd feel sad when that happens to me. But I guess this is a different subject.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Polytheism, especially European polytheistic faiths, are rife with necromancy.

Me: It's such hard work raising a family.
Necromancer: Not if they're buried close together.
Me: What?
Necromancer: Huh?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Though I am not in agreement with what you believe I will support your right to free speech and freedom of religion as we all should.

You dont support free speech and freedom of religion if they contradict your beliefs?

With me, one lady struggled with her homoxual attraction which is not LGBT. So we afe talking and she fells me she thinks what she is doing is wrong. I asked and found out she was catholi . This is before I was confirmed. Then I said (supoorted her) maybe its good to talk to god about it. (To god by talking With the priest).

I didnt quote LGBT scripture, lol, and say the difference between identity and attraction. I didnt promote anything nor did I say the church is wrong. I gave her some help and supported her on issues i severely disagree with.

Can you do that, or is support limited?

I am a very black and white person. I hate mediocrity in anything. I can't stand people who are wishy-washy about important issues of life. "I dunno" just annoys me. I have know what I believe and why I believe it.....that is just me. If I don't know the answer to a question, I will research it until I do, to my own satisfaction.

Im more You believe X and I believe Y. Im not going to snuff you from existence because we believe in different letters. Im not like some religions that try to make Xs Ys or visa. However, we are bith letters. Support each other regardless of our disagreements. Its about the other not Just yourself.

I like community among diversity. I live in two minority groups and getting over the oppression is a huge heep because many people do not support freedom of speech on an individual basis. It reminds me of the Church history. (Which I read the bible and some history not for biblical debates, though) But they did a lot of killing. The reactions I get from people I know here, I would not be suprised if my friend's god (christian) told her to kill someone and she does.

Christians

I don't think people here are interested in boring debates...they want some 'biffo'

and something they can sink their teeth into.....am I wrong?

Eh. Maybe have a forum for formal debates? But that depends on whose definition of formal we would use. Black and white def. or community imput.

We are at a stalemate because I cannot accept that the dead are living, and you cannot accept that the dead are actually dead. There is no common ground at all on that issue....nowhere to go.

Eh. Its good to learn nonetheless.

 

[Dean]

It is difficult to place a linear description on something that we cannot understand with our five senses. Speaking only for myself, what dies, it is only the material body; death is a transition to another plane of existence. Just because we can't see them or talked to them in a traditional way, it doesn't mean that there vanished. Whether, another dimension, plane, or universe, there are still somewhere, of course, we will find the answer to that question when it's time for us to move beyond this world. As of contacting those departed, that is a yes, I do have personal experiences.

 

[Blastcat]

I don't consider people dead actually. I think we are eternally living spirits briefly imprisoned in a house of flesh. The spirit-people are more alive than us imho

Do you consider that your belief about "dead" people who aren't actually "dead" people is TRUE?

Or is just some hypothesis you are playing around with?

 

[Blastcat]

It is difficult to place a linear description on something that we cannot understand with our five senses.

That's why the clever scientist now use what is called "instruments".

 

[DragonHawk1959]

Contacting those who have left their bodies behind for the spirit world from which they came is a big part of my practices.

Just curious if it is allowed, forbidden, or impossible for you according to your tradition to contact the dead.

The holiday now called Halloween (All Hallows' Eve) used to be for honoring and communing with the dead. Deceased loved ones were invited to dinner. One of the few days of the year where people ate after dark had set in outside.
Now those who fear Halloween's pagan origin are trying to destroy it.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

How do y'all know that you aren't talking to demons?

Because we invited daemons - NOT demons.