can you proove there isn't a deity?

[Sees]

Please study the Old Testament, which by the way was written in Hebrew.
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
The word (’ĕ-lō-hîm) is the English transliteration for the Hebrew word אֱלֹהִ֑ים which is translated, in English, as God.

You surely have not proven that there was no term for deities or a deity in ancient times. But I have shown that there was indeed.

El or Elohim?

When I was younger I asked a local preacher if Elohim was a Hebrew version similar to the Germanic Aesir as a tribe or family of Gods, worshipped by the early, polytheist ancestors of the Israelites. Since then I've seen a few different books and articles discussing similar ideas - some even suggesting it was a group of aliens who visited the Babylonians and Israelites.

Anyway... Does seem strange for Elohim to be seen as a true translation for God and not The Gods.

 

[psychoslice]

Then prove them to me.

Well there is a lot of scientific evidence to prove them, but nothing for the prof of god, surely you must realize that ???.

 

[outhouse]

Well, considering that I've never been to a Sunday school, I find your assertion concerning me to be somewhat lacking.

While it is true that the Israel culture meshed with the Canaanite culture, there is no evidence to suggest that belief in YHWH did not exist among the Hebrew people prior to the two cultures coming together.

Well your in error.

Israelites factually evolved from displaced Canaanites per Israel Finklestein and it stands uncorrected to this date.

Your also wrong about El and Yahweh and Asherah and Baal, they ALL existed in the Canaanite religion previous to Israelites even existing.

Israelites factually did not exist as a culture before 1200 BC and after 1200 BC they were proto Israelites. The highlands of Israel were not FACTUALLY populated until after 1200 BC to 1000BC we see sudden growth during this period. The houses and pottery were all identical to Canaanite houses and pottery.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity)

Yahweh, prior to becoming Yahweh, the national god of Israel, and taking on monotheistic attributes in the 6th century BCE, was a part of the Canaanite pantheon in the period before the Babylonian captivity. Archeological evidence reveals that during this time period the Israelites were a group of Canaanite people. Yahweh was seen as a war god, and equated with El. Asherah, who was often seen as El's consort, has been described as a consort of Yahweh in numerous inscriptions

IBSS - The Bible - The Bible Unearthed


Finkelstein and Silberman believe that the Israelites were actually the Canaanites. Surveys of Israel reveal that there was no conquest, nor infiltration, but a revolution in lifestyle (107). There is a shift from earlier tent camps to villages to rectangular pillared houses. There was a shift from pastoral nomads to a permanent agricultural life (112-13).
Finkelstein and Silberman state, “The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan—they emerged from within it” (p.118).

 

[Sonofason]

Couple of quick points I want to make...

1) My view is that there is no way to disprove God. Religions might be disproved due to internal inconsistencies, etc, but it is not possible to disprove God.

2) I considered the question of 'how do I tag myself' in light of this. Am I an agnostic, or am I an atheist? In simple terms, this 'tagging' makes absolutely no difference to my belief, or lack thereof. It is simply a shorthand way of communicating what I believe in relation to theism.

3) Having considered this, and actually not much caring what label I used (since it doesn't effect my belief at all) I decided I was an atheist. It's an umbrella term (think of the diversity inherent in 'theist'!) but it was a more accurate representation of me than 'agnostic'. I have a lack of belief in the existence of Gods. This is atheism. Many would argue that this is in fact agnostic atheism, and I'm fine with that descriptor, agnostic being an admission to no absolute knowledge.

Agreed. You can label yourself however you wish. And I can of course label you however I wish. Of course this understanding does not advance the debate. But don't get me wrong. It doesn't have to. I respect your belief, or lack of belief as you call it.

 

[Sonofason]

Well your in error.

Israelites factually evolved from displaced Canaanites per Israel Finklestein and it stands uncorrected to this date.

Your also wrong about El and Yahweh and Asherah and Baal, they ALL existed in the Canaanite religion previous to Israelites even existing.

Israelites factually did not exist as a culture before 1200 BC and after 1200 BC they were proto Israelites. The highlands of Israel were not FACTUALLY populated until after 1200 BC to 1000BC we see sudden growth during this period. The houses and pottery were all identical to Canaanite houses and pottery.

History of ancient Israel and Judah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The religion of the Israelites of Iron Age I, like the Canaanite faith from which it evolved

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh_(Canaanite_deity)

Yahweh, prior to becoming Yahweh, the national god of Israel, and taking on monotheistic attributes in the 6th century BCE, was a part of the Canaanite pantheon in the period before the Babylonian captivity. Archeological evidence reveals that during this time period the Israelites were a group of Canaanite people. Yahweh was seen as a war god, and equated with El. Asherah, who was often seen as El's consort, has been described as a consort of Yahweh in numerous inscriptions

IBSS - The Bible - The Bible Unearthed


Finkelstein and Silberman believe that the Israelites were actually the Canaanites. Surveys of Israel reveal that there was no conquest, nor infiltration, but a revolution in lifestyle (107). There is a shift from earlier tent camps to villages to rectangular pillared houses. There was a shift from pastoral nomads to a permanent agricultural life (112-13).
Finkelstein and Silberman state, “The process that we describe here is, in fact, the opposite of what we have in the Bible: the emergence of early Israel was an outcome of the collapse of the Canaanite culture, not its cause. And most of the Israelites did not come from outside Canaan—they emerged from within it” (p.118).

Am I to accept your bible (wikipedia) as truth? Sorry, I don't accept Wikipedia as certain truth. But I do accept the Bible as historical truth.

 

[Sonofason]

Well there is a lot of scientific evidence to prove them, but nothing for the prof of god, surely you must realize that ???.

I realize that there are claims of evidence that suggests that electrons exist. I accept the claims as convincing. I have never seen an electron. I do not know that they exist. I have never experienced an electron to my knowledge. And apparently, because you have not provided any evidence for the existence of electrons, you understand clearly the point I am trying to make.

 

[outhouse]

Then prove them to me.

Each round spot is a atom, the outside round part you see is factually electrons :clap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Atomic_resolution_Au100.JPG

 

[outhouse]

Am I to accept your bible (wikipedia) as truth? Sorry, I don't accept Wikipedia as certain truth. But I do accept the Bible as historical truth.

I posted facts.

YOU cannot come in here and dismiss them as "I don't like it because it goes against my personal faith"


Facts are facts, that is why you cannot refute them, so you transparently ignore knowledge and education.

Everything I posted has sources. what do you have besides mythology?

 

[Sonofason]

El or Elohim?

When I was younger I asked a local preacher if Elohim was a Hebrew version similar to the Germanic Aesir as a tribe or family of Gods, worshipped by the early, polytheist ancestors of the Israelites. Since then I've seen a few different books and articles discussing similar ideas - some even suggesting it was a group of aliens who visited the Babylonians and Israelites.

Anyway... Does seem strange for Elohim to be seen as a true translation for God and not The Gods.

I in no way claim to know what God is. That is to say, that I have no idea the extent of God. I only know of Him what I experience of Him, and I am certain that leaves me nowhere with regard to my understanding of Him. But I have come to trust the authors of the Bible, and I have come to trust in God. It is not that I believe that the authors of the Bible had a far greater understanding of God than I have, but I believe they experienced God as I do, and they wrote it down, as I do.

 

[psychoslice]

I realize that there are claims of evidence that suggests that electrons exist. I accept the claims as convincing. I have never seen an electron. I do not know that they exist. I have never experienced an electron to my knowledge. And apparently, because you have not provided any evidence for the existence of electrons, you understand clearly the point I am trying to make.

Have you ever seen a cell within your body, have you seen every country on this earth, and how do you know they exist, because there is so much evidence that they do. You can look through a powerful microscope and see the cells in your body, you can travel all over the planet and see all the countries that exist, but god, well he's just ones imagination, unless of course you can prove to not just me but everyone on this planet, if you can do that you will be the first, good luck.

 

[Sonofason]

EXACTLY!

Faith means belief with no evidence at all! :sarcastic


But we have more then faith too describe electrons. WE have pictures of atoms

That's like me saying, we have more than faith to describe God, we have words of apostles.

 

[Sonofason]

Each round spot is a atom, the outside round part you see is factually electrons :clap

File:Atomic resolution Au100.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's a very pretty picture, now please prove that each little round spot is an atom, and that the outside part I see is factually electrons.

 

[outhouse]

But I have come to trust the authors of the Bible

Yet you don't understand the first thing about ancient Israelites who evolved from Canaanites and wrote about their polytheistic beliefs.

So you don't know the culture, you don't know the people, you don't know the authors, the redactors, the many different collectors that collected and compiled multiple copies to create one book that took hundreds and hundreds of years to complete.

You don't have a clue about the unknown authors of the OT.

You factually are denouncing education and knowledge to even make that statement.

 

[Sonofason]

I posted facts.

YOU cannot come in here and dismiss them as "I don't like it because it goes against my personal faith"


Facts are facts, that is why you cannot refute them, so you transparently ignore knowledge and education.

Everything I posted has sources. what do you have besides mythology?

I have sources too. You cannot come in here and dismiss them as "I don't like it because it goes against my personal faith".

The Bible contains more truth than all the pages of wikipedia.

 

[McBell]

Am I to accept your bible (wikipedia) as truth? Sorry, I don't accept Wikipedia as certain truth. But I do accept the Bible as historical truth.

You actively pick and choose what you want to be true and not true?
How is this anything but dishonesty?

 

[McBell]

The Bible contains more truth than all the pages of wikipedia.

This is nothing more than opinion at best and wishful thinking at worse.

 

[Sonofason]

Have you ever seen a cell within your body, have you seen every country on this earth, and how do you know they exist, because there is so much evidence that they do. You can look through a powerful microscope and see the cells in your body, you can travel all over the planet and see all the countries that exist, but god, well he's just ones imagination, unless of course you can prove to not just me but everyone on this planet, if you can do that you will be the first, good luck.

What you do not understand is that the physical world, God's creation, was created to be seen. God is not created to be seen. He is not even created. He exists apart from the physical world of which you are a part. You are not a part of God, and so you are incapable of seeing Him, that is, unless he reveals Himself to you.

 

[outhouse]

That's a very pretty picture, now please prove that each little round spot is an atom, and that the outside part I see is factually electrons.

File:Atomic resolution Au100.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The individual atoms composing the material are visible

Do all religious people like you denounce education and knowledge and facts presented to them?

Those are factually electrons.

If you denounce what your eyes see, you have lost all credibility to debate and should go to the "same faith" section of this forum where REASON is not required.

 

[Sonofason]

Yet you don't understand the first thing about ancient Israelites who evolved from Canaanites and wrote about their polytheistic beliefs.

So you don't know the culture, you don't know the people, you don't know the authors, the redactors, the many different collectors that collected and compiled multiple copies to create one book that took hundreds and hundreds of years to complete.

You don't have a clue about the unknown authors of the OT.

You factually are denouncing education and knowledge to even make that statement.

Yet you do not understand the ancient Hebrew culture who wrote about their monotheistic beliefs as well as the perversion of those beliefs when they mingled with corrupt cultures.

I do not worship education as you do. I worship God.

 

[Sonofason]

You actively pick and choose what you want to be true and not true?
How is this anything but dishonesty?

But, you pick and choose what you want to be true as well.