can you remember being born?? i do

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Or it's because they had a very different 'type' of experience than you did.

There are people that have had both types of experiences and they definitely see them as not the same at all.

What is your opinion of reports from serious scientific researchers that people sometimes remember verifiable real-world details during these experiences that they could not have learned through normal channels (i.e. seeing events at which they were not present and knowing even odd details)?

Such as?

I'm not quick to call these events scientific.

They lack a good solid foundation on how to investigate them. They also usually involve peoples memories which can range from being either amazing, to downright **** poor.

That being said I do not doubt that these people have had an "experience" what I of course question is the validity of the truth behind those experiences. Meaning that the interpretations that we give for the "experiences" this does not mean that I acknowledge mine to be the truth, just that given what we are learning about the brain and even what we are learning about animals (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/25/false-memory-implanted-mouse-brain)-->I don't actually trust the full validity of this article either until I can read the actual study itself...but I digress, as I was saying given what we are learning about the brain I remain open to that new school of thought rather than the old metaphyscial one.

 

[George-ananda]

Such as?

Such as the body of stories researched by people of science that include verifiable details. And also the untold mountain of stories provided by individuals from all walks of life which will never get rigorous study but can’t be dismissed for that reason.

I'm not quick to call these events scientific.

Who ever called the events scientific? The events are spontaneous and not subject to controlled experiments. What is scientific is the attempts by researchers to study spontaneous phenomena in the best way possible; through interviews with principals and witnesses and psychological evaluations. They take pains to do this. What other methods are available to study spontaneous phenomena?

I can understand how ‘hard science’ can not do anything with these phenomena at this time and that agnosticism on the subject is the best position when speaking as a ‘scientist’. However I, as an individual, am concerned with ‘what is most reasonable to believe’ not just ‘what does hard science know’. So I will consider the reasonability of all evidence and possible explanations.

They lack a good solid foundation on how to investigate them. They also usually involve peoples memories which can range from being either amazing, to downright **** poor.

That being said I do not doubt that these people have had an "experience" what I of course question is the validity of the truth behind those experiences. Meaning that the interpretations that we give for the "experiences" this does not mean that I acknowledge mine to be the truth, just that given what we are learning about the brain and even what we are learning about animals (http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/jul/25/false-memory-implanted-mouse-brain)-->I don't actually trust the full validity of this article either until I can read the actual study itself...but I digress, as I was saying given what we are learning about the brain I remain open to that new school of thought rather than the old metaphysical one.

Certainly all researchers and myself are aware of the possibility of false memories. This possibility was considered when I came to the belief that something is going on that cannot be explained away as false memories.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Such as the body of stories researched by people of science that include verifiable details. And also the untold mountain of stories provided by individuals from all walks of life which will never get rigorous study but can’t be dismissed for that reason.



Who ever called the events scientific? The events are spontaneous and not subject to controlled experiments. What is scientific is the attempts by researchers to study spontaneous phenomena in the best way possible; through interviews with principals and witnesses and psychological evaluations. They take pains to do this. What other methods are available to study spontaneous phenomena?

I can understand how ‘hard science’ can not do anything with these phenomena at this time and that agnosticism on the subject is the best position when speaking as a ‘scientist’. However I, as an individual, am concerned with ‘what is most reasonable to believe’ not just ‘what does hard science know’. So I will consider the reasonability of all evidence and possible explanations.



Certainly all researchers and myself are aware of the possibility of false memories. This possibility was considered when I came to the belief that something is going on that cannot be explained away as false memories.

Except there is no standard to measure these events. There is no particular way to remove bias, to screen for false memories, or even incorrect recall.

That's why I remain skeptical about these particular topics. You have nothing to really rule these against except whether or not you want to believe them or not.

 

[George-ananda]

Except there is no standard to measure these events. There is no particular way to remove bias, to screen for false memories, or even incorrect recall.

Researchers do their best to do produce quality work. Spontaneous events involving human beings can never be perfectly studied like a chemistry experiment in a laboratory. In parapsychology evidence is gathered, all possible theories are considered before one adopts the theory (or none of the theories) he finds most reasonable.

That's why I remain skeptical about these particular topics. You have nothing to really rule these against except whether or not you want to believe them or not.

I can't agree with the last sentence. I say your individual 'common sense' rules for you. For example, if multiple independent hotel guests reported to the manager what appears to be a very similar ghost like figure of a man in a old-fashioned blue military uniform then I think the manager is reasonable to consider the 'coincidence theory' an unlikely explanation. So, it is not just a matter of 'whether or not you want to believe' as you say, but a matter of logic and common sense.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Researchers do their best to do produce quality work. Spontaneous events involving human beings can never be perfectly studied like a chemistry experiment in a laboratory. In parapsychology evidence is gathered, all possible theories are considered before one adopts the theory (or none of the theories) he finds most reasonable.




I can't agree with the last sentence. I say your individual 'common sense' rules for you. For example, if multiple independent hotel guests reported to the manager what appears to be a very similar ghost like figure of a man in a old-fashioned blue military uniform then I think the manager is reasonable to consider the 'coincidence theory' an unlikely explanation. So, it is not just a matter of 'whether or not you want to believe' as you say, but a matter of logic and common sense.

That isn't logic or common sense. Because you cannot rule out

How do you qualify them as independent? Is it strictly through "them not knowing each other" or them having no knowledge of the hotel?

As well as again you have no control.

As you mentioned it's not like chemistry, then is it studied like psychology. What exactly are the standards that are put into place. Hearsay is not enough.

 

[Awoon]

Its the first memory i can remember...except...i was only a spirit. I remember all the sudden being consciously aware of my being...and didnt know where i was. I immediately looked down at my 'hands'...and when i realized i didnt have a body...and i just simply WAS...i thought...o boy...im on earth...this outta be interesting. So i observed the room...to this day i can describe it in detail to my mother...who initially was dumbfounded the first time i mentioned my memory...its very accurate...and very real. I told myself it was a good idea to look out the window...and memorize something...sketch it in my mind...so i would have conformation later or something...so i memorized the opposing windows architecture. Lol. The design of the bricks...i then thought i should search for a clock on the wall....i wanted to make sure i remembered what time i was there apparently...2:45pm. (I was born at 3:12 pm i later found out) I finally was 100% sure i was witnessing my mother in a hospital room when i hovered to the ceiling to get a full-on view. And then.....blackness....followed by what seemed to be a fast moving tunnel of light....and i was calmly inside for the ride....moving at what seemed very high speeds...hard to describe it really...but i passed a few images towards the end of the tunnle...like it slowed down just enough for me to make out a man turning the knob on a 50s style tv console...(i have no idea about that one to this day...but. lol.) That was it...thats all i remember...my next memory wasnt until 1 1/2 or so...so im wondering if anyone can relate? And please...if your going to be rude...take it somewhere else...i seriously experienced this...i believe its 100% true so my 'religion' was formed by the fact that i am a spirit...i dont classify my beliefs into one 'religion'...but ive cut and pasted what fit the facts i new...and what branched out of those facts. Im im happy with it so far...so dont bring me down. thank you...and sorry if that was long winded. Input please and thank you.

Can you remember not being alive?

 

[George-ananda]

That isn't logic or common sense. Because you cannot rule out

I never said you can 'rule out'. Just that the likelihood becomes very small. That's where 'judgement' comes in. We use 'judgement' all the time in non-paranormal ways too. Example, I walk outside and see an apple laying on the ground under my apple tree. One theory is that it fell naturally off a branch. Another theory is a person climbed the tree, picked the apple and dropped it on the ground. Now, I can't rule out the second theory, but my judgement tells me it's highly unlikely.

As well as again you have no control.

I agree with that. But I'm not going to ignore everything that happens outside of a laboratory in forming my views on the universe.

As you mentioned it's not like chemistry, then is it studied like psychology. What exactly are the standards that are put into place. Hearsay is not enough.

As I said, researchers have to employ different techniques when studying things that can't be controlled. Such research by serious scientists cannot be called just 'hearsay'.

 

[George-ananda]

Can you remember not being alive?

I say she never was 'not alive'. We emerge from the Oneness, experience separateness for awhile, and return to the Oneness. Like a wave emerging from the ocean, exists as a wave for a time, and returns to the ocean.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I never said you can 'rule out'. Just that the likelihood becomes very small. That's where 'judgement' comes in. We use 'judgement' all the time in non-paranormal ways too. Example, I walk outside and see an apple laying on the ground under my apple tree. One theory is that it fell naturally off a branch. Another theory is a person climbed the tree, picked the apple and dropped it on the ground. Now, I can't rule out the second theory, but my judgement tells me it's highly unlikely.



I agree with that. But I'm not going to ignore everything that happens outside of a laboratory in forming my views on the universe.



As I said, researchers have to employ different techniques when studying things that can't be controlled. Such research by serious scientists cannot be called just 'hearsay'.

I don't say ignore it.

But there still needs to be a developed standard across the board. I am just not quick to rule these out as paranormal when their may be "normal or natural" reasonings behind them.

 

[George-ananda]

I don't say ignore it.

But there still needs to be a developed standard across the board. I am just not quick to rule these out as paranormal when their may be "normal or natural" reasonings behind them.

But can't one always cobble together some explanation consisting of only 'natural' things for any spontaneous fleeting seemingly paranormal event?

So, in effect, aren't you really saying we should ignore them?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

But can't one always cobble together some explanation consisting of only 'natural' things for any spontaneous fleeting seemingly paranormal event?

So, in effect, aren't you really saying we should ignore them?

No I mean expend the natural explanations...

 

[Enai de a lukal]

The more likely explanation to me is she was in a disembodied state much like the NDE people.

Hah!

 

[George-ananda]

Hah!

Care to elaborate?

 

[George-ananda]

No I mean expend the natural explanations...

Not exactly sure what you mean. But in my worldview the natural includes non-physical conscious entities already.

I get my worldview from eastern (Indian) teachings and I am not restricted to only western materialist science.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Care to elaborate?

If you can't appreciate the humor in (and problems with) that particular statement, I don't know that me explaining it to you would help. How about this; on what basis are you saying it is more probable that she "was in a disembodied state"? Care to share your calculations with us?

 

[George-ananda]

If you can't appreciate the humor in (and problems with) that particular statement, I don't know that me explaining it to you would help. How about this; on what basis are you saying it is more probable that she "was in a disembodied state"? Care to share your calculations with us?

Such things are always a judgement; an opinion; an educated guess. Mine is based on whether such things fits into my worldview, my perception of the sincerity of the claimant, similar claims, the veridical details (unverifiable by me), the likelihood of a lie/imagination etc..

Well, duh, my answer implied it could be a lie, imagination, etc.. and it can also be a real spiritual experience.

And could you share your calculation that shows me wrong. No, you can't. It's just an educated best guess.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

Such things are always a judgement; an opinion; an educated guess. Mine is based on whether such things fits into my worldview, my perception of the sincerity of the claimant, similar claims, the veridical details (unverifiable by me), the likelihood of a lie/imagination etc..

Well, duh, my answer implied it could be a lie, imagination, etc.. and it can also be a real spiritual experience.

And could you share your calculation that shows me wrong. No, you can't. It's just an educated best guess.

I never made any claims about the relative probabilities of various explanations; you did. And, as it turns out, without any adequate basis to do so. This should sort of explain the humor in your statement, because this is precisely what I thought you were doing in the first place.

 

[George-ananda]

And, as it turns out, without any adequate basis to do so.

I do feel adequate to make an educated guess on this issue as well as many other issues.

For even normal phenomena we make educated guesses as to likelihood. I find an apple under my apple tree. There are multiple possible explanations; it fell naturally from the tree; someone climbed the tree and knocked it off; a squirrel blah blah blah; blah blah blah. I think the most likely explanation is it fell naturally from the tree. I can't calculate the likelihood. We do this all the time.

 

[ladybug77]

I believe in Mayan Astrology which is very helpful for future prediction.Mayan astrology has started regaining its popularity, obviously following the much rumored ‘End of World’. Nothing happened but that didn’t drown their interest in Mayan sun signs. The Mayan calender system is a finite one covering a particular time which allows the users determine the actual start and completing duration of a month, year, century or even a millennium. This ancient calendar appears like the popular modern day calendar used globally. This calendar deliberates on three periods of time. It should be better imagined as three different dials on a watch, each of which features a particular time range.

***staff edit***

One wonders why this was edited....

 

[Gjallarhorn]

One wonders why this was edited....

He had an advertising link at the end.