Capitalism is Killing the Planet

[RestlessSoul]

That always struck me as a dumb thing to say.

Who should be compelled to hire & pay the worker no one wants?

What struck you as a dumb thing to say, strikes me as evidence of the most admirable aspirations on which your country was founded. But there you go.

Governments have obligations to the communities they are elected to serve. One such obligation ought to involve regulating economies at least to the extent of ensuring they serve the many not the few.

 

[RestlessSoul]

How did you manage to access the Internet as a stone age hunter-gatherer?

Telepathy

 

[Revoltingest]

What struck you as a dumb thing to say, strikes me as evidence of the most admirable aspirations on which your country was founded. But there you go.

To believe so strongly that one's values & opinions
are The Truth is an illusion. They're widely agreed
upon, but hardly universal.

Governments have obligations to the communities they are elected to serve. One such obligation ought to involve regulating economies at least to the extent of ensuring they serve the many not the few.

And they all do....some too much....some
too little...some well...some wrongly.

 

[Wildswanderer]

- Capitalism is killing the planet – it’s time to stop buying into our own destruction | George Monbiot

"In consenting to the continued destruction of our life-support systems, we accommodate the desires of the ultra-rich and the powerful corporations they control.

We will endure only if we cease to consent. The 19th-century democracy campaigners knew this, the suffragettes knew it, Gandhi knew it, Martin Luther King knew it. The environmental protesters who demand systemic change have also grasped this fundamental truth .... we see people, mostly young people, refusing to consent. What they understand is history’s most important lesson. Our survival depends on disobedience."

Thoughts?

How does this make any sense when the worst polluters are not capitalistic countries?

 

[Lyndon]

Actually per capita USA and Australia are the world's worst polluters, china just pollutes a bit more because it has 3 times as many people

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually per capita USA and Australia are the world's worst polluters, china just pollutes a bit more because it has 3 times as many people

Give'm time.

 

[Mock Turtle]

How does this make any sense when the worst polluters are not capitalistic countries?

Are you going to quote the top five or top ten?

Which countries are the world’s biggest carbon polluters? - Climate Trade

 

[Revoltingest]

Instead of blaming private ownership of the means
of production, how about actually doing something
about....
- Pollution
- Overpoulation
- Global warming
- Mass extinctions

 

[Stevicus]

how about actually doing something
about....
- Pollution
- Overpoulation
- Global warming
- Mass extinctions

Sounds like a great idea. I wonder why our government isn't doing anything about it. Who is standing in the way of sound environmental policy?

Fossil Fuel Interests Have Outspent Environmental Advocates 10:1 on Climate Lobbying - Yale E360

Lobbying against key US climate regulation ‘cost society $60bn’, study finds - Carbon Brief

How a powerful US lobby group helps big oil to block climate action | Oil | The Guardian

Anti-Environmentalism - ECPS (populismstudies.org)

Revealed: BP and Shell back anti-climate lobby groups despite pledges - Unearthed (greenpeace.org)

 

[Revoltingest]

Sounds like a great idea. I wonder why our government isn't doing anything about it. Who is standing in the way of sound environmental policy?

Fossil Fuel Interests Have Outspent Environmental Advocates 10:1 on Climate Lobbying - Yale E360

Lobbying against key US climate regulation ‘cost society $60bn’, study finds - Carbon Brief

How a powerful US lobby group helps big oil to block climate action | Oil | The Guardian

Anti-Environmentalism - ECPS (populismstudies.org)

Revealed: BP and Shell back anti-climate lobby groups despite pledges - Unearthed (greenpeace.org)

Or....
Doesn't really matter to voters.

 

[Secret Chief]

How does this make any sense when the worst polluters are not capitalistic countries?

Most, if not all countries, are capitalist. Perhaps the capitalist countries should do nothing until the non-capitalist countries do something.

 

[RestlessSoul]

To believe so strongly that one's values & opinions
are The Truth is an illusion. They're widely agreed
upon, but hardly universal.

And they all do....some too much....some
too little...some well...some wrongly.

They were idealists, those early Americans. They thought that Fate, or God, or Providence had provided them with an opportunity to build a society from scratch, a brave new world founded on the noblest elements of the human spirit; so they had better establish some common principles, beginning with the acknowledgement that man was created equal in the eyes of God.

The thing with ideals is, no one ever quite manages to live up to them, but without such statements of common interest, no civilisation can ever hope to thrive. Government of the people, for the people, by the people may be a pipe dream; but as dreams go, it’s not a bad one.

 

[Revoltingest]

They were idealists, those early Americans. They thought that Fate, or God, or Providence had provided them with an opportunity to build a society from scratch, a brave new world founded on the noblest elements of the human spirit; so they had better establish some common principles, beginning with the acknowledgement that man was created equal in the eyes of God.

The Brits thought God was on their side too.

The thing with ideals is, no one ever quite manages to live up to them, but without such statements of common interest, no civilisation can ever hope to thrive. Government of the people, for the people, by the people may be a pipe dream; but as dreams go, it’s not a bad one.

I agree it's a decent dream.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Are you going to quote the top five or top ten?

Which countries are the world’s biggest carbon polluters? - Climate Trade

China is supposed to be the worst.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Most, if not all countries, are capitalist. Perhaps the capitalist countries should do nothing until the non-capitalist countries do something.

China isn't capitalist, it's Communist.

 

[Kooky]

Give'm time.

Australia and the US are actually providing a perfect framework to convince China to stop engaging with the climate accords altogether. They're being so effective in this idiotic foreign policy that a casual observer could be fooled into thinking it's intentional on their part.

 

[Kooky]

Or....
Doesn't really matter to voters.

Like libertarianism?

 

[Revoltingest]

Like libertarianism?

Exactly.

 

[Mock Turtle]

China is supposed to be the worst.

That might have something to do with the larger population though - but the USA with 5% or so of the world population consumes between 20% - 25% of the energy. Figure that one out - as to why many Americans might not be keen on doing anything.

 

[exchemist]

No, because capitalism is all about profit and shareholder dividends.
Without regulation you have polluted rivers and land, exploited workers, tax avoidance, etc.

Those are the goals that drive it, but it is not what is "all about". It is also "about" making and selling goods and services to consumers that they want, and it is "about" providing jobs (and wages) for people, and providing pensions for them when they are old. Amazing, when you think of it, what profit and dividends can achieve.

I'm not sure why you mention absence of regulation. Just about everyone knows capitalism needs regulation. Most people, at least those of us who have experience of working in a business, are aware that it is heavily regulated (competition law, employment law, environmental regulations, health and safety at work, the myriad rules about financial conduct, intellectual property law, advertising standards, data protection, and so on.) All this is as it should be. I don't think I have seen anyone here question the need for any of this.

Government now needs to add some more rules, to guide businesses far more strongly towards minimising greenhouse gas emissions. (Apart from the obvious help for sustainable technologies and so forth, a carbon tax is one way of applying incentives to all business activities.)

Regulation is crucial because it enables a business to say to consumers, "Sorry, we can't sell you that product any more" without the consumer simply going off to buy it from a less climate-aware supplier. That makes it a level playing field for all businesses, which overcomes the problem of competition and customer choice driving the continuation of bad habits.

Businesses will moan about a carbon tax, due to the extra accounting they will have to do to calculate the carbon (and methane?) footprint of their activities, the cost of which will mean higher prices for us all, but if government is firm they will knuckle down and do it.