Capitalism: why eternal growth is self-destructive

[Heyo]

By that question, I was thinking more in terms of change consciously guided and driven by society as a whole, as opposed to allowing things to operate in a more laissez-faire manner expecting change to happen by means of the "unseen hand."

The "unseen hand" is a myth. (I think I made an OP about it some time ago.)
It only functions under the assumption that businesses compete. But competition is bad for business. You can make a much bigger profit when you cooperate, fix prices or partition markets.
So, the theory of capitalism is already built on a big lie. You need regulation to keep the promise, the theory makes. And when the capitalists can buy the regulators, you get the "late stage" capitalism, you have now.

 

[Estro Felino]

The "unseen hand" is a myth. (I think I made an OP about it some time ago.)
It only functions under the assumption that businesses compete. But competition is bad for business. You can make a much bigger profit when you cooperate, fix prices or partition markets.
So, the theory of capitalism is already built on a big lie. You need regulation to keep the promise, the theory makes. And when the capitalists can buy the regulators, you get the "late stage" capitalism, you have now.

Do you know what happened in 2010? The disaster of MPS Bank, Amro Bank, Bank of Scotland?

It seems to me that privates mess up things because they are greedy and unfit, and then they demand that the State rescues bankrupted banks, that went bankrupt because of their mismanagement and their whims.

So the invisible hand thing is the most idiotic thing I can think of, right now.

 

[Estro Felino]

The "unseen hand" is a myth. (I think I made an OP about it some time ago.)
It only functions under the assumption that businesses compete. But competition is bad for business. You can make a much bigger profit when you cooperate, fix prices or partition markets.
So, the theory of capitalism is already built on a big lie. You need regulation to keep the promise, the theory makes. And when the capitalists can buy the regulators, you get the "late stage" capitalism, you have now.

One more thing.
I hope the Germans understand that Von der Leyen would be a much better solution in the future EU elections.
Much better than certain dragons and similar medieval creatures.

I am a serious person. I have never believed in dragons.

 

[Heyo]

One more thing.
I hope the Germans understand that Von der Leyen would be a much better solution in the future EU elections.
Much better than certain dragons and similar medieval creatures.

I am a serious person. I have never believed in dragons.

I'm not a fan of Zensursula. She is undemocratic and corrupt. And she only is where she is because being undemocratic and corrupt is not a disqualification in the CDU. I haven't decided who to vote for, yet. Last time, my vote got Niko Semsrott into the EP. But I know who doesn't get my Vote, the CDU, the FDP or the SPD.

 

[Watchmen]

Fixed it.
Capitalism in the US had that function until the 80s. Since then, it has degenerated into a scheme to push people into poverty or at least keep them where they are. Almost all wealth created from then on has been gobbled up by the 1%.

You think my comment is limited to the US? You think capitalism no longer uplifts the poor?

 

[Heyo]

You think my comment is limited to the US? You think capitalism no longer uplifts the poor?

It does in China and, to an extent, in other parts of the world. But it has stopped working in the US, and it will stop working everywhere, as that is the way capitalism evolves. It is an unsustainable ideology. Greed always leads to a downfall.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not a fan of Zensursula. She is undemocratic and corrupt. And she only is where she is because being undemocratic and corrupt is not a disqualification in the CDU. I haven't decided who to vote for, yet. Last time, my vote got Niko Semsrott into the EP. But I know who doesn't get my Vote, the CDU, the FDP or the SPD.

Vote for whoever you like.
I just hope that you don't vote for someone who will take dragons in the lead of the European Commission.
Dragons are not something one should appreciate: they are just mythological creatures.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

As for your car example, cars will be fully automated in the relatively near future and traffic will be a thing of the past. Think Minority Report.

Personally, I really wouldn't bank on that.

 

[Revoltingest]

Fixed it.
Capitalism in the US had that function until the 80s. Since then, it has degenerated into a scheme to push people into poverty or at least keep them where they are. Almost all wealth created from then on has been gobbled up by the 1%.

Socialist fanboys were saying such things long before the 80s.
It's what they do....complain about capitalism, & refuse to see
the evil wrought by socialism.
If voters refuse to provide adequate social services to the poor,
this is their choice. They could choose otherwise.

 

[Stevicus]

The "unseen hand" is a myth. (I think I made an OP about it some time ago.)
It only functions under the assumption that businesses compete. But competition is bad for business. You can make a much bigger profit when you cooperate, fix prices or partition markets.
So, the theory of capitalism is already built on a big lie. You need regulation to keep the promise, the theory makes. And when the capitalists can buy the regulators, you get the "late stage" capitalism, you have now.

I agree the "unseen hand" is a myth, although a lot of people seem to believe it exists and favor a laissez-faire system with minimal government involvement. My comment was in the context of the argument that "new businesses arise" and that "other businesses shrink and die," and the only limitation is one's own imagination and the ability to see new opportunities.

It's a somewhat Darwinian idea that if you're good at what you do, customers will see this and buy your product. But if your product is bad, then customers won't buy it, and you go out of business - a kind of "natural selection" at work and a consequence for not being able to compete. The "unseen hand" could be seen as a euphemism for natural consequences.

In that sense, any revolution or political upheaval would also be an example of the "unseen hand" at work. Those are the things that capitalists tend not to like, and it's at that point that they start to go against the laissez-faire and freedom-loving philosophy and start pushing towards more law-and-order, authoritarian type of system. That seems to be the direction many people are taking, particularly those who are afraid of losing what they've already gained. This is their test of faith in the "unseen hand," since one wonders how far some will go to keep their wealth and power.

There is still a political process that works, regardless of whatever system we have. There's a certain bit of compromise, give-and-take, quid pro quo - that sort of thing. Capitalists may be able to buy the regulators and even the government itself, but if they're too intransigent and/or don't know what they're doing, then they're just like the Romanovs in 1917.

 

[Revoltingest]

Do you know what happened in 2010? The disaster of MPS Bank, Amro Bank, Bank of Scotland?

It seems to me that privates mess up things because they are greedy and unfit, and then they demand that the State rescues bankrupted banks, that went bankrupt because of their mismanagement and their whims.

So the invisible hand thing is the most idiotic thing I can think of, right now.

If you're really willing to look at things messed up,
take a gander at ever socialist / communist country
to ever exist. Mass starvation, violent oppression,
& economic woe are the standard.
N Korea,
China (during Mao's reign)
USSR
Khmer Rouge
Cuba

Capitalism offers the possibility of good results.
Even socialists like the Scandinavian (capitalist)
model.

 

[Revoltingest]

I agree the "unseen hand" is a myth.....

Think of the "unseen hand" not as God reaching down
to guide the slobbering masses, but as a stochastic
process with emergent properties. This is what
capitalism means to us....not a meddling sky fairy.
The demand curve is one such emergent property.

 

[Estro Felino]

If you're really willing to look at things messed up,
take a gander at ever socialist / communist country
to ever exist.

In Socialist Iceland they are rich. And they jailed most bankers.

Capitalism offers the possibility of good results.

Of course. But the control from the State is indispensable.

Even socialists like the Scandinavian (capitalist)
model.

Exactly.

 

[Stevicus]

If you're really willing to look at things messed up,
take a gander at ever socialist / communist country
to ever exist. Mass starvation, violent oppression,
& economic woe are the standard.
N Korea,
China (during Mao's reign)
USSR
Khmer Rouge
Cuba

Capitalism offers the possibility of good results.
Even socialists like the Scandinavian (capitalist)
model.

Just as a point of order, I've always found this method of argumentation to be illogical and flawed. It's far too superficial, and it glosses over centuries of history just to reach some strange conclusion about the state of the world.

 

[Kfox]

Eternal growth is impossible: yet it's what unbridled Capitalism and the profit maximization advocate for.
They want a country to grow every year, and what does that imply?

That more cars are produced, more cars are sold: but spaces are limited and at some point, we will need to stop producing thousands and thousands of car because there will be not even one inch free.
All garages, all parking lots will be taken.
Eternal growth is suicidal and self-destructive: capitalists want more and more people on Earth, because they want more and more customers.

The problem I find with your argument is it is in reference to "unbridled capitalism" which doesn't exist in the real world. Unbridled capitalism is like saying unbridled freedom; where anyone can do whatever they want. EVERTYHING is subject to the rule of law, even capitalism. People in free countries are free to do as they please so long as it isn't illegal, and people in countries with an economy based on capitalism are free to be capitalists so long as what they do isn't illegal.

 

[PureX]

Just as a point of order, I've always found this method of argumentation to be illogical and flawed. It's far too superficial, and it glosses over centuries of history just to reach some strange conclusion about the state of the world.

Not to mention that it completely ignores the fact that when despotic dictators claim their countries are socialist or communist they are just flat out lying. A forced labor camp is not a "commune". And a totalitarian dictatorship is not "socialism". But these lies serve the bias of the capitalists, so they tell them and re-tell them over and over and over, hoping that people are so stupid they will believe them out of habit.

And sadly, many do.

 

[Kfox]

Well...the situation is much serious than that.
I personally know people that in order to go to a place which is just 500 or 700 meters away, they take the car.
Despite there is:
- subway
- bus
- tram
- or you can go by foot or by bycicle, right?

And yet....I wish everyone was like people of Amsterdam:

What about people physically unable to ride a bike; like older people? Should they be forced to stay home?

 

[Kfox]

You're good at math, right?

This is my question.
A businessman produces ham in his firm.
He spends 100,000 euros on meat every year. And thanks to the work of his employees, he gains 4 million euros a year.
How much money (of those 4 million) should he use to pay his employees?

The least amount the employees will agree to work for.

 

[PureX]

The problem I find with your argument is it is in reference to "unbridled capitalism" which doesn't exist in the real world.

Unbridled capitalism is just flat out criminality. It would become the feudal dictatorship that the capitalists accuse every other system of being if laws were not enacted to stop it. And even then, it will fight those laws and try to get around them in every way possible. So it's not like capitalism has some innate governor that "bridles" it. The truth is that it is so socially toxic that laws have to be imposed on it to try and limit it's damage.

Unbridled capitalism is like saying unbridled freedom; where anyone can do whatever they want. EVERTYHING is subject to the rule of law, even capitalism. People in free countries are free to do as they please so long as it isn't illegal, and people in countries with an economy based on capitalism are free to be capitalists so long as what they do isn't illegal.

Unfortunately, that drives the capitalists to circumvent the laws whenever and however possible. Because those laws are interfering with the capitalist's unremitting self-serving agenda.

 

[Stevicus]

Not to mention that it completely ignores the fact that when despotic dictators claim their countries are socialist or communist they are just flat out lying. A forced labor camp is not a "commune". And a totalitarian dictatorship is not "socialism". But these lies serve the bias of the capitalists, so they tell them and re-tell them over and over and over, hoping that people are so stupid they will believe them out of habit.

And sadly, many do.

It also ignores the reasons and historical background of how the Western capitalist countries turned out so much better and with a higher standard of living than the so-called "socialist" countries. It also ignores the fact that the vast majority of capitalist countries are just as bad or even worse than socialist countries.