Cardinal Pell and Evolution

[SkepticThinker]

And he that steals a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 21:16
You shall not oppress a poor and needy hired servant, of your brothers or of your aliens who are in your land, within your gates. In the same day you shall give him his hire; do not let the sun go down on it. For he is poor, and has lifted up his heart on it; that he not cry against you to Jehovah, and it be sin against you. ... ...You shall not pervert judgment of an alien, or of an orphan; and you shall not take a widow's garment as pledge. But you shall remember that you were a slave in Egypt, and Jehovah your God redeemed you from there. For that reason I command you to do this thing.
Deu. 24:14-18
The word that was to Jeremiah from Jehovah after king Zedekiah had cut a covenant with all the people in Jerusalem, to proclaim liberty to them, that each man should release his male slave, and each man his female slave, if a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, to go free, that not any should enslave a Jew, a man, his brother among them. And all the rulers obeyed, and all the people who had entered into the covenant allowed them to go free, each man his male slave, and each man his female slave; so that not any should enslave among them any more; and they obeyed and let them go. But afterward they turned and caused to return the male slaves and the female slaves whom they sent away. And they subjected them for male slaves and for female slaves. For this reason the word of Jehovah came to Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying, So says Jehovah, the God of Israel: I cut a covenant with your fathers in the day I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, saying, At the end of seven years each man should let go his brother who is a Hebrew, who has been sold to him. When he has served you six years, you shall let him go free from you. But your fathers did not listen to Me nor bow down their ear. And you had turned today, and you did right in My eyes, to call for liberty, each man to his neighbor. And you cut a covenant before Me in the house on which is called My name. But you turned and profaned My name, and each man caused his male slave, and each man his female slave, to return whom you had sent away according to their desire. And you subjected them to be slaves and female slaves to you. So Jehovah says this: You have not listened to Me, to call for liberty, each man to his brother, and each man to his neighbor. Behold, I call for freedom to you, says Jehovah: to the sword, to the plague, and to the famine. And I will cause you to be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth.
Jer. 34:8-17
do not become slaves of men.
1 Cor. 7:23

And I want to remind slave beaters:
And when a man strikes the eye of his male slave, or the eye of his slave-girl and destroys it, he shall send him away free for his eye. And if he causes the tooth of his male slave, or the tooth of his slave-girl, to fall out, he shall send him away free for his tooth.
Ex. 21:26-27

Leviticus 25:44-46​

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44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:20-21​

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20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

Not necessary all. But the disobedient child, as in the scripture may be. And it is interesting that atheist usually implicate it is about a small child who is disobedient. And when we read what the Bible speaks, it is about a person who is a glutton and a drunkard. This leads to question, what kind of children atheists have and, and is a glutton and a drunkard actually that evil.

I don't think being a glutton or a drunkard makes a person evil or deserving of death. Do you?
In fact, I think taking another person's life is immoral.

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, and they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

What if the mother and father are absolute jerks who don't deserve to be obeyed?

So, do you think it's moral to kill (a supposedly immoral act, according to you) someone for being a glutton and a drunkard?

Deu. 21:18-21


Jesus told that only God is good. So, probably no human is really good. I don't think

Well, there's a terrible view of humanity right there.

that necessary means person is evil. But, obviously this depends on what is the standard for good. I thin good means one doesn't do anything wrong or badly.

So it only takes one bad action to make someone evil? Yikes!

I think evil person is a person who wants bad things. Non evil person may do bad things, but he doesn't want bad to happen and is sorry, when he understands he has done something bad.

Okay so an evil person is like, a psychopath, or something along those lines? Someone who doesn't have any remorse or empathy?

What is there to reconcile. For us it is said:

Do not judge, that you may not be judged; for with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured again to you.
Matt. 7:1-2

What's to reconcile? You said "I think people should not kill anyone," and here we are discussing a Bible verse where God commands us to kill disobedient children. That's what there is to reconcile.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And when your brother becomes poor with you, and he has been sold to you, you shall not lay on him the service of a slave. He shall be with you as a hireling, as a tenant he shall be with you; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee; then he shall go out from you, he and his sons with him, and shall return to his family; he shall even return to the possession of his father. For they are My servants, whom I have brought out from the land of Egypt; they shall not be sold with the sale of a slave.
3 Moos. 25:39-42
And he that steals a man and sells him, or if he is found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex. 21:16

Now the question is, what about the people who were from other nations? And this leads to question, who is a Jew. Is person a Jew, if he lives by Jewish rules and is circumcised as also slaves form other countries should have been?

And a son of eight days shall be circumcised among you, every male in your generation, he that is born in the house, or bought with silver from any son of a foreigner who is not of your seed. Surely the child of your house and the purchase of your money must be circumcised. And My covenant shall be in your flesh for a perpetual covenant.
Gen. 17:12-13


Yes.

I think world governments are immoral and corrupt.

Yes, we know that. Fellow Hebrews were to be treated differently. So what? That does not negate the verses that tell you who you can buy. Who is a slave and who is not. It also tells a person how to trick a fellow Hebrew into being a slave for life.

 

[1213]

Yes, we know that. Fellow Hebrews were to be treated differently. So what? That does not negate the verses that tell you who you can buy. Who is a slave and who is not. It also tells a person how to trick a fellow Hebrew into being a slave for life.

I think, if the whole Bible is obeyed, one can be slave for life, only if he agrees to be. It would not be possible against person's own will to be a slave for life.

 

[1213]

I don't think being a glutton or a drunkard makes a person evil or deserving of death. Do you?
In fact, I think taking another person's life is immoral.

Good, I think it is best, if people don't kill others.

Being glutton and drunkard can tell that person is evil, but they don't make anyone evil. If person is evil, he does evil and bad actions.

What if the mother and father are absolute jerks who don't deserve to be obeyed?

In Biblical point of view God is the highest. If parents would want one to do bad things, then he should rather obey God than parents.

So, do you think it's moral to kill (a supposedly immoral act, according to you) someone for being a glutton and a drunkard?

Those actions are really not the reason. The reason is unrighteousness and evilness, that may come visible in those actions. And I don't think those actions always show that person is really evil.

Well, there's a terrible view of humanity right there.

Why, if it is just truth?

So it only takes one bad action to make someone evil? Yikes!

Actions don't make person good or evil, they only tell what kind of person one is.

Okay so an evil person is like, a psychopath, or something along those lines? Someone who doesn't have any remorse or empathy?

Evil person is someone who does evil actions.

What's to reconcile? You said "I think people should not kill anyone," and here we are discussing a Bible verse where God commands us to kill disobedient children. That's what there is to reconcile.

Why do you think it commands you to kill? Bible doesn't give the right to judge for everyone.

 

[1213]

But tell you what, you can be my slave for life, and all of your children, and their children's children. I own all of you. What do you say? Do you want to volunteer?

No thanks.

do not become slaves of men.
1 Cor. 7:23

 

[1213]

And then there are the non-Hebrew slaves ...

Now the question is, can there really be non-Hebrew slaves, if they all would have to live by Hebrew rules?

 

[1213]

Hominid fossils demonstrate we did in fact evolve from chimp-like creatures. Some Europeans even have DNA of older hominids in their blood.

That is like saying, humans have two eyes, fish also have two eyes, humans must be fishes. I think rather idiotic it is to think that way.

No everyone, secular, religious, apologists, evangelists, all say it's pi.

But, Bible is not speaking of pi in any way. It is just a poor interpretation.

 

[1213]

There was no Bible when the first 5 books were being written so that is a bizarre statement. And yes other nations had very similar books.

Please give one example of similar book as the Bible.

One of Proverbs is literally an Egyptian book:

Probably from Jews.

15:35

Ain Dara temple - footprints of Yahweh walking in to the holy of holies. Gods lived in temples.

Interestingly Bible says:
The God who made the world and all things in it, this One being Lord of Heaven and of earth, does not dwell in handmade temples,
Acts 17:24

18:15
Jacob wrestled with God, forced him to bless him and God renamed him Israel.

If you read the whole text, you can notice it was a man, who was also called a god. Not the God.

Similar to Mesopotamian deities.

To me that shows person doesn't really know God.

By John 1:18 the theology has changed and “no one has seen God”.

Genesis 18:16-17, 20-22 God appears to Abraham as a normal man with 2 other men who are also divine beings. God is also mulling over if he should tell Abraham what he is about to do.

Exodus 24:9-11 Moses, Arron etc, saw God

This depends on, in what way they saw Him.

And he said, You are not able to see My face; for no man can see Me and live.
Ex. 33:20

 

[1213]

Fossils disprove a literal readon of genesis

How?

 

[1213]

And other people then muslims have nothing like the quran.
And other people then hindu's have nothing like the bagavad ghita.
Etc

What makes them good?

Quran seems to be inaccurate copy of Bible.

 

[1213]

The bible goes out of its way to make distinct rules on what should happen when slaves are beaten in a specific way. This implies that there are beatings that are ok.
There's no way around it.

I disagree with that, for example because of the general rule, love your neighbor as yourself.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

How?

Homo sapiens had ancestors.
Fossils further demonstrate a progression of life over millions of years.
The fossil record does not fit the magical story of Eden.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What makes them good?

I'm the wrong person to ask that. I'm not a muslim or a hindu.
I'm sure muslims and hindu's will be happy to tell you what is so great about their scripture, just like you are happy to tell others what in your opinion is so great about the bible.

I can appreciate them all from an anthropological / cultural standpoint.
As accurate depictions of human history / the human condition... not so much.

Quran seems to be inaccurate copy of Bible.

The bible seems to be inaccurate copies of Gilgamesh and other things that came before it.

Also, a muslim would tell you that the quran is actually the "correct" version of the bible while the bible has been corrupted and altered over the centuries.

Every theist thinks his religion is the end all, be all.
You are not any different then the others in that regard.
And why would you? Why would they?

If a hundu thought the bible was so great as opposed to his own scripture, he'ld be a christian instead of a hindu, would he not?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I disagree with that, for example because of the general rule, love your neighbor as yourself.

I've already dealt with that. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by simply repeating it.
My response will be the same.

 

[Audie]

How?

You know, that's a level of ignorance
unusual even for creationists.
You have no concept of deep time / evolution/
fossils at all.
You just know it's all wrong. Somehow.
Cause you know better.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think, if the whole Bible is obeyed, one can be slave for life, only if he agrees to be.

Your personal view is at odds with the Bible.

It would not be possible against person's own will to be a slave for life.

It certainly is possible. Read some history of the United States, for starters.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Good, I think it is best, if people don't kill others.

Being glutton and drunkard can tell that person is evil, but they don't make anyone evil. If person is evil, he does evil and bad actions.

I don't think either of those things necessarily make a person evil.

In Biblical point of view God is the highest. If parents would want one to do bad things, then he should rather obey God than parents.

This avoids the point.

Those actions are really not the reason. The reason is unrighteousness and evilness, that may come visible in those actions. And I don't think those actions always show that person is really evil.

I think actions can be evil or wrong or immoral. I don't see evil as some kind of entity or anything.

Why, if it is just truth?

I don't think it's the truth.

Actions don't make person good or evil, they only tell what kind of person one is.

Evil person is someone who does evil actions.

Actions don't make people good or evil but an evil person is someone who does evil actions?

Why do you think it commands you to kill? Bible doesn't give the right to judge for everyone.

Because that's what it says.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No thanks.

do not become slaves of men.
1 Cor. 7:23

1 Corinthians 7:22-23

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22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord’s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.

This doesn't address what we're talking about.
How come you don't want to be my slave?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Now the question is, can there really be non-Hebrew slaves, if they all would have to live by Hebrew rules?

And then there are the non-Hebrew slaves ...

Leviticus 25:44-46​

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

No. The question is, why do you keep avoiding this?

 

[Audie]

Your personal view is at odds with the Bible.

It certainly is possible. Read some history of the United States, for starters.

Or the sugar plantations of Jamaica and Haiti.
Life expectancy of about two years.

Or King Leopold and his ivory trade.
"Heart of Darkness" hardly touched it.

Tho he describes blacks emaciated, sick, and dying.

Of course! If you fed them they could have the
strength to rebel against carrying ivory out of the bush