Cartoons Under Fire

[jamaesi]

And I did say before, the situation didn't happen solely through the actions of the Middle East.

Am I to look at Fred Phelps or Pat Robertson or groups that kill people or the conflict between Catholics and Protestants and draw the conclusion that Christianity is violent and needs to be stopped?

The situation in Europe is getting more and more violent- look at the riots in France. People tried to pass it off as "Muslim violence" when not all the rioters were Muslim. They were all poor and immigrants and felt shut-out from the rest of society.


Here are two articles that talk about the situation.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/focus/story/0,,1702538,00.html
http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topi...o=71520&version=1&template_id=43&parent_id=19



I'm not saying this excuses the violent reaction- never ever will. But this wasn't a random act done out of boredom.

 

[jamaesi]

I believe what Jamaesi is trying to say is that: this is not CAUSED by Islamic teaching?

Exactly.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Are they fighting for peace? I can't see any of them? What have they done? Where are their troops? Are they effective? If so, how?

Okay, Michel provided the news on another thread:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4682262.stm

However, you have to search between lines to find how peaceful Muslim have been doing their work:

On Saturday, Asghar Bukhari, chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee, said the demonstration in London on Friday should have been stopped by police because the group had been advocating violence. He said the protesters "did not represent British Muslims".
Mr Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, Muslims do not feel that way.
"I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."


He said that Muslims were angry over satirical cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers but it was "outrageous" for anyone to advocate extreme action or violence.

"We believe it [the protest] should have been banned and the march stopped. "It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible."
The Walsall North MP added that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Britain "have the same distaste as the rest of us about these thugs".
"I hope it will be the last time we ever see such a demonstration, totally unacceptable to the Muslim community," he said.

 

[mr.guy]

Are they fighting for peace? I can't see any of them? What have they done? Where are their troops? Are they effective? If so, how?

The problem, is the extreme civility with which they've denied terrorism. Personally, I think iraquis standing in line to join their governments police force despite the very obvious peril of such an act is momentously brave; it's not their fault that western media outlets (and you) have ignored the significance of such statements telling of their own determinism.

 

[Darkdale]

The proble, jamaesi, is that we do not seem to see "the actions of a few extremists." What we seem to see is a barbaric and reactionary culture that increasingly presents itself as a threat to civilization.

...and a defensive Muslim middle. Instead of going out and making a statement, instead of fighting for peace with the West, the are sitting, silent, as if waiting to see who comes out on top. Just another reason for the West to come out on top.

 

[linwood]

...and a defensive Muslim middle. Instead of going out and making a statement, instead of fighting for peace with the West, the are sitting, silent, as if waiting to see who comes out on top. Just another reason for the West to come out on top.

Maybe because when they do speak out they are arrested under religious law.

Mr Momani's arrest came earlier on Saturday, a day after Jordanian King Abdullah condemned the cartoons as an unnecessary abuse of freedom of speech.

Mr Momani's paper, Shihan, had printed three of the cartoons, alongside an editorial questioning whether the angry reaction to them in the Muslim world was justified.

"Muslims of the world be reasonable," wrote Mr Momani.

"What brings more prejudice against Islam, these caricatures or pictures of a hostage-taker slashing the throat of his victim in front of the cameras or a suicide bomber who blows himself up during a wedding ceremony in Amman?"

Mr Khalidi, whose al-Mehwar newspaper had also reprinted the cartoons, was detained late on Saturday. Al-Mehwar had reproduced the cartoons over a week ago to accompany an article on the condemnation they had sparked.


BBC

Personally I think the European Governments and press are being more than a bit hypocritical using free speech as a defense.
There is not free speech in these countries as their hate speech laws evidence.

 

[Darkdale]

Maybe because when they do speak out they are arrested under religious law.

Personally I think the European Governments and press are being more than a bit hypocritical using free speech as a defense.
There is not free speech in these countries as their hate speech laws evidence.

well, I disagree with you. I don't think that is why. But you bring up important points. That should be a part of the debate as well.

 

[linwood]

well, I disagree with you. I don't think that is why. But you bring up important points. That should be a part of the debate as well.

I`m not insinuating this is the only reason.
I agree with most of what you`ve said here Darkdale.
I`m just trying to show how the culture itself is responsible for much of the lack of peace.

 

[maggie2]

People here keep asking where are the 'middle-of-the-road' Muslims; why aren't they speaking out. I hear this and I agree that it would help if they did so. However, how many of you who feel this way have spoken out against Jerry Falwell and/or Pat Robertson or others like them when they say ridiculous things, as is their habit? If you haven't done anything to quell their mouths I don't think it is appropriate to expect that same action from someone else.

That doesn't mean I believe that what the protesters are doing is right. I don't. However, I know that SOMEONE has to be reasonable enough to say enough, already. How can we resolve this problem and get on with some things that are far more important...like feeding the hungry and helping the lame and loving others? We won't find any resolution when we keep looking to the other person to do something. We are the ones who need to take action to move beyond this situation. Could any of us do that? If so what could we do to create a better situation? Just some thoughts that I hope will lead to a more compassionate stance.

 

[Buttercup]

However, how many of you who feel this way have spoken out against Jerry Falwell and/or Pat Robertson or others like them when they say ridiculous things, as is their habit? If you haven't done anything to quell their mouths I don't think it is appropriate to expect that same action from someone else.

I use my mouth in the voting booths as often as possible. I did my part in trying to get GW out of the white house...and I'm a Christian. Not all Christians are Republicans.

If I could vote Pat Robertson off of TV I would. I lodged a complaint about him on their website after his last snafu about Ariel Sharon. I think quite a few Christians have had enough of him....he embarrasses the rational Christians out there.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

To equate Pat Robertson with widespread and barbaric Muslim violence is simply ludicrous.

 

[maggie2]

I use my mouth in the voting booths as often as possible. I did my part in trying to get GW out of the white house...and I'm a Christian. Not all Christians are Republicans.

If I could vote Pat Robertson off of TV I would. I lodged a complaint about him on their website after his last snafu about Ariel Sharon. I think quite a few Christians have had enough of him....he embarrasses the rational Christians out there.

I agree that you have done some things to deal with Robertson. However, people here are asking mainstream Muslims to get out and protest in the streets against the fundamentalist Muslims. So my question was and is: Have you gone out in the streets in protest against Robertson et al? If so great then ask away that they do the same. If you haven't done what you are asking someone else to do then maybe you need to do so if you expect the others to do it. I'm not sure if you were one of those asking that Muslims demonstrate or not. However, my point stll stands. Don't ask another to do something you wouldn't do yourself or wouldn't do first.

We can argue this point all day but the truth is if we want a peaceful world we are the ones who have to be willing to do what it takes to create peace. And I want peace, so I will try to live in such a way as to create that. I don't always succeed bacause I'm nowhere near perfect but I will continue to strive for peace.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

However, my point stll stands. Don't ask another to do something you wouldn't do yourself or wouldn't do first.

People have every right to insist that Muslims vociferously reject the ugly and incessant violence of its minority, if it is indeed a minority. To suggest otherwise is dispicable nonsense.

 

[Buttercup]

However, how many of you who feel this way have spoken out against Jerry Falwell and/or Pat Robertson or others like them when they say ridiculous things, as is their habit? If you haven't done anything to quell their mouths I don't think it is appropriate to expect that same action from someone else.

Jayhawker,

I believe Jamaesi, Maggie and I are implying that Pat Robertson says ridiculous things...not that his actions are on par with violent extremeists.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

And I believe that raising Pat Robertson at all is a pathetic diversion.

 

[Buttercup]

Jayhawker,

People should be able to talk about whatever they want on this forum without you constantly inserting intimidating comments. Leave us be. There are PLENTY of threads at the moment discussing the current Muslim cartoon situation. It's not like interjecting a few random thoughts is going to dilute the major points of this thread. Give us a break!

 

[maggie2]

And I believe that raising Pat Robertson at all is a pathetic diversion.

Unfortunately, Jayhawker, I totally disagree with you. Pat Robertson may not be violent himself, but he does incite violence against all kinds of people. He preaches that Ariel Sharon is being punished because he gave back some land to the Palestinians. He said that the tsunami was caused by God being agianst the 'infidels', he said 9/11 was a judgement of God on America. Whether you agree or not, I believe he is just as wrong as the violent Muslims. He incites hatred of other human beings. Oh yes, and let's not forget the homosexuals he hates as well. He does not attempt to create a peaceful world but a divided one. He does not preach tolerance for other human beings but judgement. I never said he was violent. But I do say he is not doing one thing constructive to help resolve many of the world problems and he is a religious leader.

I again repeat, nothing excuses the Muslim fundamentalists. However, nothing excuses the Christian fundamentalists either. Both are wrong, in my opinion. You have a right to your opinion but I also have a right to mine and my opinion is that we need to try to create peace, not incite negative feelings.

 

[jamaesi]

I wasn't aware things were judged on the old "Scale O' Evil."

Terror and hate and death and glory in those things are all to be pushed away and despised no matter what form they are in or whose mouth they come out of.


I'm also getting the feeling that no matter that Muslims say or do to try to stop and protest the violence and spread peace, it's just never going to be enough for some of you...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm also getting the feeling that no matter that Muslims say or do to try to stop and protest the violence and spread peace, it's just never going to be enough for some of you...

Is it enough for you?

 

[jamaesi]

It will never be enough until all terrorism and hate and violence is gone from this world.

But to have our efforts belittled and diminished and pushed aside and ignored in the meantime? That's harsh.