Catholicism & Christianity

[Renji]

* Continued

Phony Statistics

Many Fundamentalists believe, for instance, that more people died under the Inquisition than in any war or plague; but in this they rely on phony "statistics" generated by one-upmanship among anti-Catholics, each of whom, it seems, tries to come up with the largest number of casualties.
But trying to straighten out such historical confusions can take one only so far. As Ronald Knox put it, we should be cautious, "lest we should wander interminably in a wilderness of comparative atrocity statistics." In fact, no one knows exactly how many people perished through the various Inquisitions. We can determine for certain, though, one thing about numbers given by Fundamentalists: They are far too large. One book popular with Fundamentalists claims that 95 million people died under the Inquisition.
The figure is so grotesquely off that one immediately doubts the writer’s sanity, or at least his g.asp of demographics. Not until modern times did the population of those countries where the Inquisitions existed approach 95 million.
Inquisitions did not exist in Northern Europe, Eastern Europe, Scandinavia, or England, being confined mainly to southern France, Italy, Spain, and a few parts of the Holy Roman Empire. The Inquisition could not have killed that many people because those parts of Europe did not have that many people to kill!
Furthermore, the plague, which killed a third of Europe’s population, is credited by historians with major changes in the social structure. The Inquisition is credited with few—precisely because the number of its victims was comparitively small. In fact, recent studies indicate that at most there were only a few thousand capital sentences carried out for heresy in Spain, and these were over the course of several centuries.

What’s the Point?

Ultimately, it may be a waste of time arguing about statistics. Instead, ask Fundamentalists just what they think the existence of the Inquisition demonstrates. They would not bring it up in the first place unless they thought it proves something about the Catholic Church. And what is that something? That Catholics are sinners? Guilty as charged. That at times people in positions of authority have used poor judgment? Ditto. That otherwise good Catholics, afire with zeal, sometimes lose their balance? All true, but such charges could be made even if the Inquisition had never existed and perhaps could be made of some Fundamentalists.
Fundamentalist writers claim the existence of the Inquisition proves the Catholic Church could not be the Church founded by our Lord. They use the Inquisition as a good—perhaps their best—bad example. They think this shows that the Catholic Church is illegitimate. At first blush it might seem so, but there is only so much mileage in a ploy like that; most people see at once that the argument is weak. One reason Fundamentalists talk about the Inquisition is that they take it as a personal attack, imagining it was established to eliminate (yes, you guessed it) the Fundamentalists themselves.

Not "Bible Christians"

They identify themselves with the Catharists (also known as the Albigensians), or perhaps it is better to say they identify the Catharists with themselves. They think the Catharists were twelfth-century Fundamentalists and that Catholics did to them what they would do to Fundamentalists today if they had the political strength they once had.
This is a fantasy. Fundamentalist writers take one point—that Catharists used a vernacular version of the Bible—and conclude from it that these people were "Bible Christians." In fact, theirs was a curious religion that apparently (no one knows for certain) came to France from what is now Bulgaria. Catharism was a blend of Gnosticism, which claimed to have access to a secret source of religious knowledge, and of Manichaeism, which said matter is evil. The Catharists believed in two gods: the "good" God of the New Testament, who sent Jesus to save our souls from being trapped in matter; and the "evil" God of the Old Testament, who created the material world in the first place. The Catharists’ beliefs entailed serious—truly civilization-destroying—social consequences.
Marriage was scorned because it legitimized sexual relations, which Catharists identified as the Original Sin. But fornication was permitted because it was temporary, secret, and was not generally approved of; while marriage was permanent, open, and publicly sanctioned.
The ramifications of such theories are not hard to imagine. In addition, ritualistic suicide was encouraged (those who would not take their own lives were frequently "helped" along), and Catharists refused to take oaths, which, in a feudal society, meant they opposed all governmental authority. Thus, Catharism was both a moral and a political danger.
Even Lea, so strongly opposed to the Catholic Church, admitted: "The cause of orthodoxy was the cause of progress and civilization. Had Catharism become dominant, or even had it been allowed to exist on equal terms, its influence could not have failed to become disastrous." Whatever else might be said about Catharism, it was certainly not the same as modern Fundamentalism, and Fundamentalist sympathy for this destructive belief system is sadly misplaced.

 

[Renji]

Lastly:

The Real Point

Many discussions about the Inquisition get bogged down in numbers and many Catholics fail to understand what Fundamentalists are really driving at. As a result, Catholics restrict themselves to secondary matters. Instead, they should force the Fundamentalists to say explicitly what they are trying to prove.
However, there is a certain utility—though a decidedly limited one—in demonstrating that the kinds and degrees of punishments inflicted by the Spanish Inquisition were similar to (actually, even lighter than) those meted out by secular courts. It is equally true that, despite what we consider the Spanish Inquisition’s lamentable procedures, many people preferred to have their cases tried by ecclesiastical courts because the secular courts had even fewer safeguards. In fact, historians have found records of people b.aspheming in secular courts of the period so they could have their case transferred to an ecclesiastical court, where they would get a better hearing.
The crucial thing for Catholics, once they have obtained some appreciation of the history of the Inquisition, is to explain how such an institution could have been associated with a divinely established Church and why it is not proper to conclude, from the existence of the Inquisition, that the Catholic Church is not the Church of Christ. This is the real point at issue, and this is where any discussion should focus.
To that end, it is helpful to point out that it is easy to see how those who led the Inquisitions could think their actions were justified. The Bible itself records instances where God commanded that formal, legal inquiries—that is, inquisitions—be carried out to expose secret believers in false religions. In Deuteronomy 17:2–5 God said: "If there is found among you, within any of your towns which the Lord your God gives you, a man or woman who does what is evil in the sight of the Lord your God, in transgressing his covenant, and has gone and served other gods and worshiped them, or the sun or the moon or any of the host of heaven, which I have forbidden, and it is told you and you hear of it; then you shall inquire diligently [note that phrase: "inquire diligently"], and if it is true and certain that such an abominable thing has been done in Israel, then you shall bring forth to your gates that man or woman who has done this evil thing, and you shall stone that man or woman to death with stones."
It is clear that there were some Israelites who posed as believers in and keepers of the covenant with Yahweh, while inwardly they did not believe and secretly practiced false religions, and even tried to spread them (cf. Deut. 13:6–11). To protect the kingdom from such hidden heresy, these secret practitioners of false religions had to be rooted out and expelled from the community. This directive from the Lord applied even to whole cities that turned away from the true religion (Deut. 13:12–18). Like Israel, medieval Europe was a society of Christian kingdoms that were formally consecrated to the Lord Jesus Christ. It is therefore quite understandable that these Catholics would read their Bibles and conclude that for the good of their Christian society they, like the Israelites before them, "must purge the evil from the midst of you" (Deut. 13:5, 17:7, 12). Paul repeats this principle in 1 Corinthians 5:13.
These same texts were interpreted similarly by the first Protestants, who also tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretics. Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religion. In fact, Calvin not only banished from Geneva those who did not share his views, he permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for "heresy" (e.g. Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553). In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Conservative estimates indicate that thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant. An even greater number were forced to flee to the Continent for their safety. We point this out to show that the situation was a two-way street; and both sides easily understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religion from Christian society.
The fact that the Protestant Reformers also created inquisitions to root out Catholics and others who did not fall into line with the doctrines of the local Protestant sect shows that the existence of an inquisition does not prove that a movement is not of God. Protestants cannot make this claim against Catholics without having it backfire on themselves. Neither can Catholics make such a charge against Protestants. The truth of a particular system of belief must be decided on other grounds.

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

 

[doppelganger]

Seriously, Lawrence. I'm not a fundamentalist. I am a historian. And your apologetical cut-and-paste doesn't answer or refute what anyone can read about the Albigensian Crusade on Wikipedia.

Pulling this sort of thing makes you look intellectually dishonest. It's okay to admit things that can't be reasonably denied, and not doing so makes your position far worse, because it undermines your fundamental credibility.

 

[Renji]

Seriously, Lawrence. I'm not a fundamentalist. I am a historian. And your apologetical cut-and-paste doesn't answer or refute what anyone can read about the Albigensian Crusade on Wikipedia.

Pulling this sort of thing makes you look intellectually dishonest. It's okay to admit things that can't be reasonably denied, and not doing so makes your position far worse, because it undermines your fundamental credibility.

Of course I admit the inquisition (just posted those to state the position of the Church since this concerns Catholicism and if you are actually going to read it, it does not seek to deny the inquisition but rather to give the stand of the Church about it). As I stated earlier (if you're asking for my opinion), every institutions has dark side, so and so, the Catholic Church isn't excused. Even in the Bible, there are wars where God himself seemed to act as a general. Even in Ecclesiastes 3:8 it says: a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. And, in terms of why I just copy pasted the stuff about the inquisition is because: 1) to retain its thought without giving the "bias" that might come from my opinion and 2) the articles stand for itself, no need for further explanation. It's general and simple, no need for further additions.

 

[Renji]

Also, I don't want to make it appear that these things are from me (I'm pertaining to the things about the inquisition), while the fact is they're from different sources (and of course, to make it more credible, than just basing something on your own thoughts, which can actually be incorrect since it is just subjective thought and does not really apply to what the Church says or what the history says). I respect intellectual property rights.

 

[Renji]

With 73.8 million members in 2005, it is the predominant religion, making the Philippines the third largest "Catholic" nation in the world after Brazil and Mexico, as well as one of the two predominantly Catholic countries in Asia, the other being East Timor ( Wikipedia ).

There are Korean Catholics in Asia. Their numbers are growing. One of them is Lawrence, my friend & RF member.

I just noticed this krsnaraja. Thanks (for seeing me as someone that you can consider as your friend) , and to clarify that, I am Filipino Korean.

 

[doppelganger]

Also, I don't want to make it appear that these things are from me (I'm pertaining to the things about the inquisition), while the fact is they're from different sources (and of course, to make it more credible, than just basing something on your own thoughts, which can actually be incorrect since it is just subjective thought and does not really apply to what the Church says or what the history says). I respect intellectual property rights.

Well, and let me clarify one thing. While I mentioned the Inquisition, all I said about it is that it grew out of the Albigensian Crusade. There's no reasonable doubt that the RCC called for the killing of at least tens of thousands of Cathars as part of the Albigensian Crusade to stem the tide of what the Church considered a heretical Christian movement.

And for the record, "Protestants" have done plenty of this sort of thing themselves though they've never had quite the scope of power to carry it out like the RCC did from the 4th to the 14th centuries. Also, I have no doubt that either RCC or Protestants would do this sort of thing again any place they get their hands all the way around civil government. Autocratic or authoritarian systems always have and always will, when given the power to do it.

 

[Renji]

Well, and let me clarify one thing. While I mentioned the Inquisition, all I said about it is that it grew out of the Albigensian Crusade. There's no reasonable doubt that the RCC called for the killing of at least tens of thousands of Cathars as part of the Albigensian Crusade to stem the tide of what the Church considered a heretical Christian movement.

And for the record, "Protestants" have done plenty of this sort of thing themselves though they've never had quite the scope of power to carry it out like the RCC did from the 4th to the 14th centuries. Also, I have no doubt that either RCC or Protestants would do this sort of thing again any place they get their hands all the way around civil government. Autocratic or authoritarian systems always have and always will, when given the power to do it.

Then well said. And by far, I have also explained those. And yup, no denials.

 

[Villager]

And for the record, "Protestants" have done plenty of this sort of thing themselves though they've never had quite the scope of power to carry it out like the RCC did from the 4th to the 14th centuries. Also, I have no doubt that either would do this sort of thing again any place they get their hands on civil government. Always have and always will.

'Protestants', yes. One must be aware that Protestantism, as commonly understood, is not at all the same as Christianity. It is quite true that many calling themselves Protestant, and quite often believing themselves good Christians, were drawn into acts of violence and suppression. The reason for this was that the very existence of the RCC, a fundamentally political entity, had made political and military solutions inevitable for secular governments, or governments that desired a religion other than what the Vatican supplied. So the reality is that the RCC has its own crimes to answer for, but also the reactions of others who very justifiably decided that they no longer wanted Catholicism, but Catholicism would not take 'no' for an answer.

It is quite true that the extreme right wing mentality that gave rise to Catholicism and sustained it though the centuries is by no means restricted to the RCC today. There are many 'Protestants' who would leap at the opportunity to have papal rule secured over the whole world. But their motivation is to suppress real Protestantism, that inspired democracy and freedom of the individual in the first place.

 

[Renji]

One thing perhaps that a non Catholic person think is that when a Catholic will be asked about the inquisition, he/she will deny it because he/she might think that is is a "controversy", "embarrassment" or something. This is quite true for some Catholics, but as of me, nope, I will not deny about what happen. Even the apologetics does not actually refute/ deny Albigensian Crusade, an so on, for that isn't actually the purpose (to deny) of the article. There's just nothing to fear of answering about it.

 

[krsnaraja]

I just noticed this krsnaraja. Thanks (for seeing me as someone that you can consider as your friend) , and to clarify that, I am Filipino Korean.

Lawrence, there are so many Koreans here in our place who enroll in English. Others study dentistry, nursing & medicine. There are also lots of Korean cars running our streets. In fact, my 1st car was a 1997 Kia Avella I bought in 2007. It`s still in good condition. It`s my parents who are using it now. After I bought in Aug 2010 a 1997 Toyota Camry. The Japanese are here investing in processing & producing computer parts (Tai Yuden), watches (Timex), auto parts ( Honda ). They like the hospitality we provide to them. Japanese & Korean restaurants have bloomed. There`s the Shabu Shabu, Rai Komen, etc. In return, they just love to eat seafoods, grilled lapulapu , blue marlin, steamed crabs, prawns, oysters, clams, etc. Exotic dishes you name it & we got it. We have also Chinese restaurants.

The Chinese were here a century ago. I have Chinese blood myself. There`s also the Indian community where most of them are engaged in the lending business. We have also the Muslim community. They sell from cellphones to armlets, bracelets, earrings, necklaces, etc. We have here diving spots, white beaches, waterfalls, etc.

See, we all from different religions & races live in harmony respecting each others religion. We have the Church of the Latter Day Saints, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, Bradford. We have a Taoist & Buddhist temples. I wonder why all this hatred against Catholicism when in fact, we accomodate all the different religions in this world.

 

[Renji]

Lawrence, there are so many Koreans here in our place who enroll in English. Others study dentistry, nursing & medicine. There are also lots of Korean cars running our streets. In fact, my 1st car was a 1997 Kia Avella I bought in 2007. It`s still in good condition. It`s my parents who are using it now. After I bought in Aug 2010 a 1997 Toyota Camry. The Japanese are here investing in processing & producing computer parts (Tai Yuden), watches (Timex), auto parts ( Honda ). They like the hospitality we provide to them. Japanese & Korean restaurants have bloomed. There`s the Shabu Shabu, Rai Komen, etc. In return, they just love to eat seafoods, grilled lapulapu , blue marlin, steamed crabs, prawns, oysters, clams, etc. Exotic dishes you name it & we got it. We have also Chinese restaurants.

The Chinese were here a century ago. I have Chinese blood myself. There`s also the Indian community where most of them are engaged in the lending business. We have also the Muslim community. They sell from cellphones to armlets, bracelets, earrings, necklaces, etc. We have here diving spots, white beaches, waterfalls, etc.

.

Yup, I agree. But you know, I was actually raised in the Philippines. That's why my classmates even those that are from mainland Korea (especially those who doesn't know me well or have just met me for the first time) are actually wondering why I can speak fluently in Filipino. They think that I'm a pure Korean (probably because of my looks), but I actually have Filipino blood. And it takes a lot of explanation.

See, we all from different religions & races live in harmony respecting each others religion. We have the Church of the Latter Day Saints, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, Bradford. We have a Taoist & Buddhist temples. I wonder why all this hatred against Catholicism when in fact, we accomodate all the different religions in this world

I think it is sometimes not hatred really, but rather having misunderstandings of what being a Catholic is. And besides, I think it's natural since as a person, we can't please everybody. Same is true with religion. You can't make all people into believing in it.

 

[krsnaraja]

Yup, I agree. But you know, I was actually raised in the Philippines. That's why my classmates even those that are from mainland Korea (especially those who doesn't know me well or have just met me for the first time) are actually wondering why I can speak fluently in Filipino. They think that I'm a pure Korean (probably because of my looks), but I actually have Filipino blood. And it takes a lot of explanation.



I think it is sometimes not hatred really, but rather having misunderstandings of what being a Catholic is. And besides, I think it's natural since as a person, we can't please everybody. Same is true with religion. You can't make all people into believing in it.

You are the 1st Filipino religious forum user I have befriended with. From the time I registered at yahoo.com in Nov 1999. From Indiadivine forum (June 2000 ) to Yoganandaji forum ( December 2008 ). Betcha by golly wow that really makes you special to me.

 

[Random]

Catholics are the only Christians that matter, but we are not a united bunch by any means. Presently Catholics are divided against each other and the Church on so many levels and senses, and that won't change until the rules and controls do.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Catholics are the only Christians that matter, but we are not a united bunch by any means. Presently Catholics are divided against each other and the Church on so many levels and senses, and that won't change until the rules and controls do.

How so?

 

[Random]

How so?

I think its obvious that Catholics are divided, but it may depend on your perceptions outside of your social circle or whatever group you belong to (if any). The sex abuse scandals are just an example, but modernity and tradition are clearly the two main divisions IMO, and so long as tradition continues to prevail the Church will dwindle in social significance no matter what the numbers of adherents are, up or down.

 

[Villager]

Catholics are the only Christians that matter

The Catholic Catechism says that non-Catholics have a right to be called Christians and brothers. How is it that brothers do not matter?

 

[Random]

The Catholic Catechism says that non-Catholics have a right to be called Christians and brothers. How is it that brothers do not matter?

I've not experienced a lot of Christian brotherhood from non-Catholics so I don't feel qualified to comment, but if the catechism says so it must be true. Put it another way, Catholics are the only Christians that matter to me.

 

[Villager]

I've not experienced a lot of Christian brotherhood from non-Catholics so I don't feel qualified to comment, but if the catechism says so it must be true. Put it another way, Catholics are the only Christians that matter to me.

Catholic beats pope, yet again.

 

[Random]

Catholic beats pope, yet again.

I'd guess he's use to it by now.