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Catholics Blame Gays for their Pedophile Problem

Alceste

Vagabond
You honestly think it's normal for rape victims to feel sympathy and compassion for their attackers? I have some close friends who have been raped, and they certainly harbor no warm fuzzy feelings for those who've hurt them so greatly. In case you weren't aware, rape is slightly more severe than giving someone a wedgy.

What I mean is IF a rape survivor discovers her rapist has been raped himself, it may muddy the clarity of her anger because she can empathize with his awful experience, having been there herself. I don't know any survivors who would be happy to hear their attacker had been raped. Not least because it perpetuates the cycle of violence, while the victims I know would prefer to have the rapist removed from society to prevent the perpetuation of violence. Also the vast majority of rapists are our husbands, boyfriends and acquaintances, FYI. So the feelings of rape victims are complicated enough already.

The point is, the guilty party owes a debt to their innocent victim(s).

It wouldn't be a endless cycle because the only one in the wrong is the one who has violated the rights of an innocent person. But like I said I wasn't advocating rape as some sort of state mandated punishment. I'm just saying it wouldn't bother me if it happened, because they got their comeuppance. Why shouldn't they come to understand first hand the damage they've done to others? I just don't understand why people are trying to portray the most heinous of filth as some sort of wayward puppies who just need a hug. Why should I feel obliged to care? My sympathy and compassion are exclusively for the innocent victims, I wouldn't want to cheapen it by extending it to the very ones who've so selfishly hurt and harmed them. If people behave as sub-humans, then I regard them as sub-humans.

I don't know. I can't relate. Either rape bothers you and you consider it morally wrong, or it doesn't. I can't see how someone who rapes a rapist is less culpable than someone who rapes a non-rapist. This is the same reason I'm against capital punishment and war - either murder is wrong or it isn't. If it's wrong, decent people don't do it. If it isn't always wrong, well then who cares who does it, and to whom?

That said, on a purely emotional level I have no problem with the fact pedophiles might be abused in prison. On an intellectual level, I realize that the majority of them already have been, when they were children, so as a strategy for advancing public safety, raping rapists is bollox.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
My opinion is only ever more valid than yours in medical circles, academia or a court of law, otherwise all opinions are the same. If enough of the public made such an outcry as you are making, any intelligent government would throw all credible knowledge out of the window and change the laws accordingly. It is how democracy works and governments know what it takes to be elected, votes.
So you are now arguing that your education should trump the democratic process, placing you in power (by virtue of your vast knowledge)? I'll pass on your form of utopia.


Let us follow your logic down the line a bit. A paedophile molests a child. They are caught and held accountable for that crime. You come along and decide to rape the peadophile or have somebody else do it in your place, so now you and possibly another person get charged with rape and are held responsible for your crime.
For the fourth or fifth time in this thread - I am not advocating that the pedophile be raped - by myself or anyone else. I am saying that while the pedophile is in prison, if another inmate decides to do so, I have no qualms about that, nor do I care. With that very impressive education of yours, try to follow along. Try to keep up, so that I don't have to put five more posts up, explaining that I do not advocate raping the pedophile. I also don't care if another inmate kills the pedophile. That does NOT mean that I am advocating the death penalty, but I'm sure you'll be able to misconstrue that position as well.


At some stage, sanity must prevail ...
Hell, I'd be tickled to death if that PhD in psychoanalysis that you hold would prevail long enough for you to quit mischaracterizing my position.


and it does, this is why we have a legal system run by professional people. When you have a law which breaks the law, you may as well have no law at all. The main reason why decent countries abolished the death penalty, for they understood, this just made them a murderer and broke their own laws.
... and yet, we still have the death penalty. I know this tears at the very fiber of your soul, but there are other people out there that disagree with you. That doesn't automatically make them "wrong", and it probably isn't going to change any time soon.


Yes, I get that. Don't you get it, every decent person on the face of the planet would think like you, even if it were for a fleeting second or a thought held in the back of their mind. They would know, though they would not act upon this thought. They would get over the position of temporary insantity and resume more rational thought.
Ah, now we get down to it. If someone agrees with your position, then they are "decent" and "sane". If someone disagrees with you, then they are (by definition) "barbaric", "insane", and "indecent".


So we should just shoot everbody who breaks the law? The speeding driver who has no thought or respect for the law who puts childrens lives at danger everytime they break the law, the people who leave little children near brain dead, crippled and paralysed? These people are no better than paedophiles.
A fine strawman, and excellent use of hyperbole. Totally pointless, and a waste of bandwidth, but a fine rant either way.


What about the parent who would raise a hand or more to children. Scum of the earth, their abuse leaves children just as mentally and physically damaged as the act of paedophilla, so we should just shoot every abusive parent.
You are off on a tangent, and debating very irrationally. Calm down, take a deep breath, read the fine print on the sheepskin you have hanging on your wall, and reflect on your quieter times. Go to your happy place. Touch yourself, if it will help. Do whatever it takes, but try to come back to the issue at hand.


Personally I don't think you do appreciate the efforts of mental health.
... and I don't think you appreciate the pain that is suffered at the hands of these people. If you wish to speak for me, then I'm sure you won't mind my speaking for you.


In order to understand why, something is happening in society, paedophiles must be treated and our knowledge of them increased. By doing this, hopefully we will be able to abolish this hiddeous crime from society. Failure to find the cause of this problem, will just see the problem repeated, time and time again, as the same elements in society (environment) create the next paedophile.
Excellent. When you get a confirmed cure, and you can prove that it will prevent pedophilia, let me know. We can use it to eradicate the condition. Until then, I have no intention of giving these scumbags a "timeout" as punishment for one of the top three or four most heinous crimes a person can commit.


Many paedophiles are victims of sexual abuse themselves. So when and how exactly do you determine when the sexually abused victim, should loose your sympathy, compassion and your support, where instead of receiving your empathy they receive your abuse?
Sweet. I like the way you took a person that is doing monstrously bad things to kids, and in two short sentences, turned them into a victim. Smooth.


Then you must also hold the same view, to every crime which leaves a child in the same traumatised state, or those even worse? Like speeding and drink driving?
Are we going to go through the legal punishments for every crime you can think of, or are we going to stay on the topic at hand? I realize that since you are in denial about the severity of the crime, you want to change the topic. Unfortunately for you, that isn't going to happen.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
So it's not a personal attack to equate me with a Pope who hides pedophiles, gotcha.
YOU chose to argue that a "timeout" is fair punishment (or is it "justice" or "revenge"?). That is, effectively, the same thing the Catholic church (and the Pope) have done. They have simply shuffled these people off to another precinct, as if that is an acceptable answer. You want to sit them in a cell, the Pope wants to sit them in another town. Either way, that is essentially the same treatment of the criminal. If you don't want to be equated to the pope, then don't argue in defense of his position.

I'm still waiting for the second ad hominem (and I reject that the first example you cited is an ad hominem). You are also short three (or more) strawmen.

Keep typing.

I'll take that quote of my own words. In this instance, I was saying that the cellmates of these people could mistreat and abuse them, not specifically intending that to mean rape. That said, I wouldn't raise a hand to stop it, if it occurred.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
What I mean is IF a rape survivor discovers her rapist has been raped himself, it may muddy the clarity of her anger because she can empathize with his awful experience, having been there herself. I don't know any survivors who would be happy to hear their attacker had been raped. Not least because it perpetuates the cycle of violence, while the victims I know would prefer to have the rapist removed from society to prevent the perpetuation of violence. Also the vast majority of rapists are our husbands, boyfriends and acquaintances, FYI. So the feelings of rape victims are complicated enough already.

But being the person who hurt them very deeply and profoundly, how could they have any sort of empathy for them? It doesn't make any sense to me. If those who hurt me in the past had happen to them the very same things they did to me, I would get some sense of satisfaction out of it. You understand the concept and idea of karma, don't you? Why shouldn't anyone, no matter who they are or what they do, have an firsthand understanding and awareness of the very things they do to others?


I don't know. I can't relate. Either rape bothers you and you consider it morally wrong, or it doesn't. I can't see how someone who rapes a rapist is less culpable than someone who rapes a non-rapist. This is the same reason I'm against capital punishment and war - either murder is wrong or it isn't. If it's wrong, decent people don't do it. If it isn't always wrong, well then who cares who does it, and to whom?

It's what makes rape and murder wrong that bothers me; it's the violating the rights of or victimizing an innocent person. That is what makes it wrong. But if the person is NOT innocent, then my empathy is vastly diminished. THAT is the important difference.

That said, on a purely emotional level I have no problem with the fact pedophiles might be abused in prison. On an intellectual level, I realize that the majority of them already have been, when they were children, so as a strategy for advancing public safety, raping rapists is bollox.

Like I've already said, so wasn't advocating rape as a punishment. I was just saying people who prey on women and children, causing life long psychological/emotional scars, perhaps deserve a dose of their own medicine. I mean really, why not?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Like I've already said, so wasn't advocating rape as a punishment. I was just saying people who prey on women and children, causing life long psychological/emotional scars, perhaps deserve a dose of their own medicine. I mean really, why not?
Because people have intrinsic value, and when you treat anyone - even someone as reprehensible as a child rapist - as if they don't, then you do damage to this principle for all people.

A rapist may need to be separated from society for the protection of society, and he almost certainly abdicates any claim to any special value we should place on him for his own merits. However, nothing he can do can erase that basic, minimum value we place on a person, because that's derived from the merits of humanity as a whole, not the merits of the rapist.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
Because people have intrinsic value, and when you treat anyone - even someone as reprehensible as a child rapist - as if they don't, then you do damage to this principle for all people.

A rapist may need to be separated from society for the protection of society, and he almost certainly abdicates any claim to any special value we should place on him for his own merits. However, nothing he can do can erase that basic, minimum value we place on a person, because that's derived from the merits of humanity as a whole, not the merits of the rapist.

This is where I disagree. I don't believe that every human life is sacred or of equal value. People like to make such mawkish, wishy washy claims, but how do they demonstrate it to be an indisputable truth?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is where I disagree. I don't believe that every human life is sacred or of equal value. People like to make such mawkish, wishy washy claims, but how do they demonstrate it to be an indisputable truth?
At the end of the day, I probably can't give you a good, logical argument for why this should be, but I wonder: if people don't have intrinsic value, then why are you so worked up about rape? What makes rape a crime, except for its fundamental offense to the intrinsic value of the human victim?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
At the end of the day, I probably can't give you a good, logical argument for why this should be, but I wonder: if people don't have intrinsic value, then why are you so worked up about rape? What makes rape a crime, except for its fundamental offense to the intrinsic value of the human victim?

Where the hell did I say that no one had value? I'm just saying those guilty of preying upon innocent people have far, far less value to me than the innocent people themselves. To answer your question; what makes rape a crime is that it violates the rights of and victimizes an innocent person, just like I've said before.
I believe that people should get what they give. If a person is kind, they should be rewarded with kindness in return. If a person is cruel, they should be rewarded with cruelty in return. Instead in this world we reward cruelty and punish kindness.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Where the hell did I say that no one had value?
You didn't, and I didn't say you said this.

I'm just saying those guilty of preying upon innocent people have far, far less value to me than the innocent people themselves.
And my point is that their value is still non-zero, which means that it's not justified to rape them back.

To answer your question; what makes rape a crime is that it violates the rights of and victimizes an innocent person, just like I've said before.
And why is that bad? It's because of the intrinsic value of the victim. When a rapist is sentenced, the judge doesn't generally make the harshness of the sentence proportional to the goodness of the victim. The law recognizes that rape - all rape, regardless of who is being raped - is an affront to the inherent value and dignity of humanity, regardless of who is being raped. For this same reason, it's wrong to rape anyone... even a rapist.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
A prison sentence will never make up for rape.

Such carelessness in the respect for anothers well-being should not be so easily dealt with. Their arrogance should be met with a wooden box and a 6ft deep hole.

Sorry, but I will not support such an agenda for two reasons.

1. It is pushed by the religious right (sic), and is used as a benchmark to out those who are actively part of the theodemocratic agenda currently active in this Nation.

2. The main reason is, while we have one fo the best judicial sstems in the world, it is still inherently flawed. Innocent men have been put in jail due to either mistaken identity, over-zelious prosecuters who convince the young person they had been molested when they had not, or plain revenge sought by young people.

It is rather difficult to reverse a death sentance after it is carried out.

I will go with my personal experiences counseling people, thank you.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
YOU chose to argue that a "timeout" is fair punishment (or is it "justice" or "revenge"?). That is, effectively, the same thing the Catholic church (and the Pope) have done. They have simply shuffled these people off to another precinct, as if that is an acceptable answer. You want to sit them in a cell, the Pope wants to sit them in another town. Either way, that is essentially the same treatment of the criminal. If you don't want to be equated to the pope, then don't argue in defense of his position.

Wow, the intellectual dishonesty can probrably be seen from space, it is so bright.

You are attempting to equate prison with being "shuffled to another town"?

I'm still waiting for the second ad hominem (and I reject that the first example you cited is an ad hominem). You are also short three (or more) strawmen.

Why bother, you won't admit to them anyways.

Keep typing.

Indeed, I enjoy watching you bury your crediility further.

I'll take that quote of my own words. In this instance, I was saying that the cellmates of these people could mistreat and abuse them, not specifically intending that to mean rape. That said, I wouldn't raise a hand to stop it, if it occurred.

Then you support anal rape, because everyone knows that's what occurs in male prison populations.

As I noted earlier, a rather barbaric response.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
But being the person who hurt them very deeply and profoundly, how could they have any sort of empathy for them? It doesn't make any sense to me. If those who hurt me in the past had happen to them the very same things they did to me, I would get some sense of satisfaction out of it. You understand the concept and idea of karma, don't you? Why shouldn't anyone, no matter who they are or what they do, have an firsthand understanding and awareness of the very things they do to others?

Stockholm Syndrom.

It's what makes rape and murder wrong that bothers me; it's the violating the rights of or victimizing an innocent person. That is what makes it wrong. But if the person is NOT innocent, then my empathy is vastly diminished. THAT is the important difference.

As is my empathy. However, a torch bearing, pitchfork waving lynchmob mentality isn't called for.

Like I've already said, so wasn't advocating rape as a punishment. I was just saying people who prey on women and children, causing life long psychological/emotional scars, perhaps deserve a dose of their own medicine. I mean really, why not?

Why not?

Why validate such a reprehensible action as rape by advocating it's use?
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
Sweet. I like the way you took a person that is doing monstrously bad things to kids, and in two short sentences, turned them into a victim. Smooth.
This was in response to footprints saying that many rapists/molesters were likley raped or molested themselves as children. That's hardly a controversal statement. If they had been raped then they certainly are a victim. While this doesn't negate their own horrific actions, it certainly should induce some compassion and understanding for why they did what they did, and give insights as to how we may rehabilitate these people. Or if not these people, then those that come after-- nip the process in the bud.

Basically, if you fail to have compassion for these people, then your outrage on the behalf of the children who were molested can't be all that great, since afterall, they were molested children once too.
 

McBell

Unbound
Why bother, you won't admit to them anyways.
Because merely claiming strawman and then refusing to point them out especially when flat out asked to does more to hurt your credibility than it does to hurt the credibility of one who made the alleged strawmen.

Indeed, I enjoy watching you bury your crediility further.
Seems you do not care much for your own credibility either....
 
Why does it seem that boys were molested far more often than girls?
Good question. Anyone?

One possibility is that devout Catholics who are gay have more motivation to become priests than devout Catholics who are straight. If you're straight, and you like sex, the Catholic Church has no problem with that -- just don't become a priest. But if you're gay, you have to keep it all bottled up inside, according to the Church, and becoming a priest might seem like a solution. Becoming a priest also gives cover for their lack of interest in getting a wife and raising a "good Catholic family". As a result, a higher proportion of priests are not only gay, but people who would otherwise be sexually active. And perhaps a higher proportion of devout Catholic post-pubescent boys who would go and confide in a priest are gay .... so, a higher proportion of the molestations are boys .... Finally, maybe for decades it was always considered suspicious for a priest to be spending a lot of time with a young girl, so that was frowned upon, but priests spending time with young boys was thought of as good and proper mentoring and guidance, that was allowed.

These are just guesses, I could be wrong.
 

AxisMundi

E Pluribus Unum!!!
Good question. Anyone?

One possibility is that devout Catholics who are gay have more motivation to become priests than devout Catholics who are straight. If you're straight, and you like sex, the Catholic Church has no problem with that -- just don't become a priest. But if you're gay, you have to keep it all bottled up inside, according to the Church, and becoming a priest might seem like a solution. Becoming a priest also gives cover for their lack of interest in getting a wife and raising a "good Catholic family". As a result, a higher proportion of priests are not only gay, but people who would otherwise be sexually active. And perhaps a higher proportion of devout Catholic post-pubescent boys who would go and confide in a priest are gay .... so, a higher proportion of the molestations are boys .... Finally, maybe for decades it was always considered suspicious for a priest to be spending a lot of time with a young girl, so that was frowned upon, but priests spending time with young boys was thought of as good and proper mentoring and guidance, that was allowed.

These are just guesses, I could be wrong.

Very wrong.

Pedophilia and homosexuality are two distinctly different, and totally unrelated, subjects.

A pedophile is fixated on the AGE of their victims, not the gender.

A homosexual differs only in the target gender of their affections, otherwise they are identical to any hetero. Gays seek meaningful relationships with other adults of the same gender, where pedophiles are all but incapable of having a meaningful intimate relationship with another adult.

Your comments also refuse the simple fact that, by far, more girls are the victims of men.

We see more boys attacked by priests merely because not even a second thought is generally given about a male priest being in the company of a young boy, and the system is almost set up to cater to pedophiles, with choir and alter boys.

There is also a simple matter that I never see brought up. None of these pedophile priests have a prior history of pediphilia. This would appear to support the notion that enforced celebacy forces a certain psychosis in these men, and they turn to the pool of people readily accessable, and readily controlled, ie the boys in their care.

This of course makes no effort to excuse their irresponsible actions and they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

However, to call these men "gay" is just another cheap shot the Church can take at the homosexual community, a cheap shot unfounded in anything approaching reality.
 

Revasser

Terrible Dancer
Why does it seem that boys were molested far more often than girls?

If my limited knowledge of Catholic procedures is correct (anyone feel free to correct me), it could be that the boys are simply more likely to be in a position where they would be alone with a priest.

If memory serves, you don't have altar girls, you have altar boys. And aren't the choirs typically made up of mostly, if not all, young boys as well?

Perhaps it's just a matter of availability and opportunity.
 

McBell

Unbound
I'm not the one trying to compare jail to being transfered to another town.
Nope.
You are the one who has made accusations and then refuses to present anything to support said accusations.

I do not know about in your little world, but here in the really real world, that does nothing to help your credibility and loads to diminishing it.
 
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