Challenge for atheists, worship Satan.

[Desert Snake]

Satan isnt a name any more than 'Christ' is. It's a descriptor. one with very different meanings form the Torah to the Christian texts.

If you are "blaming things on God", that may or may not be 'punishment', if that is your idea of who God is, then no wonder why you are an atheist. There can be 'punishment', however this is determined by the person themself, and isn't 'bad things happening', in general.
Many christians seem to have the same flawed idea, and they are wrong, too.

 

[Desert Snake]

Satan isnt a name any more than 'Christ' is. It's a descriptor. one with very different meanings form the Torah to the Christian texts.

That is your interpretation, probably from other interpretations, that I have no reason to presume, you researched enough, to be making that statement.

There are different ideas of what the name Satan infers, and whether it is a name, or not. I believe it to be a name, it is used as a name, and there really is no indication that it isn't the name or, even, the descriptor name, if you don't believe it to be a name, of the Fallen Angel.

A title used as a sole name, is a name, anyway.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

If you are "blaming things on God", that may or may not be 'punishment', if that is your idea of who God is, then no wonder why you are an atheist. There can be 'punishment', however this is determined by the person themself, and isn't 'bad things happening', in general.
Many christians seem to have the same flawed idea, and they are wrong, too.

Not sure how you got from my reply to this.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That is your interoretation, probably from other interpretations, that I have no reason to presume, you researched enough, to be making that statement.

There are different ideas of what the name Satan infers, and whether it is a name, or not. I believe it to be a name, it is used as a name, and there really is no indication that it isn't the name or, evrn, the descdiptor, of the Fallen Angel.

A title used as a sole name, is a name, anyway.

I've researched quite a lot actually. I just don't only research from the Christian POV. And I definitely research in original Hebrew where it deserves to be. And it isnt a name in Hebrew and every indication that it is used both for an adversarial person and adversarial force.

 

[Desert Snake]

Not sure how you got from my reply to this.

That is a generally inferred from how you interpreted the premise, and a general theme in this debate.
Saying, 'God is punishing me, or we're being punished by God", is a personal statement, and determination, and is fine.

However

Saying, "Everything bad that happens, is caused by God", is a wrong belief, and an incorrect statement.

The fact that some churches actually teach that wrong idea, no wonder why people become atheists.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

That is a generally inferred from how you interpreted the premise, and a general theme in this debate.
Saying, 'God is punishing me, or we're being punished by God", is a personal statement, and determination, and is fine.

However

Saying, "Everything bad that happens, is caused by God", is a wrong belief, and an incorrect statement.

The fact that some churches actually teach that wrong idea, no wonder why people become atheists.

Where did I ever say 'god is punishing me or we are being punished by god'?

I never inferred that I blame god. I dont believe in gods so there's no more for me to blame than blaming the Star Wars Sith for so much darkness.

If you're talking about Judaism and rejection of demi-gods and fallen angels and testing humans..you need only look to Job. The only time the accuser ever killed anyone in the Torah was expressly with God's permission, as a literal test of faith. This is no surprise to anyone who has read Isaiah.
"Forming 'Light' and creating 'Darkness', making 'Peace' and creating 'Evil' - I am HaShem and I do ALL these things" Isaiah 45:7.

 

[Desert Snake]

I've researched quite a lot actually. I just don't only research from the Christian POV. And I definitely research in original Hebrew where it deserves to be. And it isnt a name in Hebrew and every indication that it is used both for an adversarial person and adversarial force.

I don't know how you determined that it isn't a name, in Hebrew. It's used as a name, because it is used without descriptor. Title names without descriptors, tend to be names, that may or may not be titles, as well. The idea follows for other name/titles, in the text.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I don't know how you determined that it isn't a name, in Hebrew. It's used as a name, because it is used without descriptor. Title names without descriptors, tend to be names, that may or may not be titles, as well. The idea follows for other name/titles, in the text.

Because it isn't used as a proper name. It isnt even used as a title in most Hebrew scripture, but just the word 'adversary.' (שָׂטָן) There are more humans called satan in scripture than any angelic being. The way I might call someone my opposition in a debate.
The few times it calls an angel satan it's not even the same angel:
"But G-d became angry because he was going, so [one] of HaShem's angels (messengers) stationed itself in his way as an opponent (satan) to him." (B'midbar / Numbers 22:22);

 

[Mock Turtle]

Nothing to do with the premise. Theistic Satanism is generally give reward type of scenario. That's why you sign your soul over to Satan.
Note that for real theistic Satanists, there is no pretense that they aren't paying for what they get, or what they think they will get, in one of the Hells.

If a satanist thinks they are getting something for free, that's just there mistake.

Well I would have to start believing in a soul then - which I don't. So I see a problem straight off. Apart from not believing in the existence of satan/Satan either of course.

 

[blü 2]

The idea that Satan is the fallen angel, is easily interpreted from the texts, overall.

Well, nothing in the Garden story links the snake to Satan. There the snake tells no lies, and is instrumental in having humanity come into possession of the knowledge of good and evil, which is an extremely good thing for humans to know, even in a story. Nor does the story mention disobedience, sin, original sin, death entering the world, spiritual death, or the need for a redeemer ─ all those have been wished on on the tale later by people with other agendas.

There's nothing in Isaiah to link the 'Day Star' to Satan, or to any other official at the Court of Heaven, not least because 14:4 specifies that it's a taunt addressed to the King of Babylon.

In the Job tale, it's Yahweh who torments his own loyal follower, murders his family, strips him of his wealth and living. The morality in the tale is grossly repulsive, but it's all at Yahweh's hand ─ Satan is simply the associate of Yahweh who's on the other side of the bet.

Incidentally, what 'fallen angel' story are you referring to? If it's in the Tanakh, it's not on my radar.

 

[viole]

How could one possibly worship a being they do not believe exists? How sincerely could one fake it?

What he actually asked was not to worship Satan sincerely. But to worship Satan as sincerely as you can. The former was impossible for me. The latter quite easy,

Ciao

- viole

 

[Twilight Hue]

What if satan wants atheists to stay who they are so he does nothing? After all, it's said that the worst thing the devil did was deceive the world that he doesn't exist.

I like the reverse psychology part here. To get people to believe in something that clearly is on par with The Emperor's New Clothes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since atheists don't believe in Satan, here is a challenge, that is simple.

Worship Satan as sincerely as you can. Then note if anything happens. If atheism is real, nothing should happen. If Satan is real, you might get an indication of that, via Spiritual awareness, etc, of such.

Shalom

So because we don’t worship any gods, you want us to worship one of the gods in your pantheon?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Satan isn't a god in my pantheon

Semantics.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The premise is theoretical.

What premise?

If atheists don't want to have any gods, then the premise is philosophical as to how approach theism.

It’s not a question of “want.”

There have been times in my life when I wanted nothing more than to believe in God. My intellectual honesty still got in the way.

It's a given that not many people are going to worship Satan.

But there are still quite a few, including a fair number of atheists.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It seems rather pointless, but what the heck:

Hail Stan!!

Anything?

 

[YmirGF]

What he actually asked was not to worship Satan sincerely. But to worship Satan as sincerely as you can. The former was impossible for me. The latter quite easy,

Ciao

- viole

You are correct. My difficulty is that I contemptuously reject the notion of worship itself, regardless of the target, so it would be quite impossible to pretend on any level.

 

[Audie]

The premise of worshipping Satan, as a challenge in contrast to atheism.

Intellectual honesty? There actually is no reason for intellectual honesty to get in the way of that.

Satanism is very broad in meaning. So, sort of. The premise is theistic Satanism, anyway.

It's just a random example of theism, many others could be used.

Your failure to recognize the
role of intellectual dishonesty
in this is pretty telling.

To believe because you want to
is intellectual dishonesty-but you
see no reason to acknowledge that!


To worship 'satan" would be
nothing but play-acting.

We suspect that your "real" worship
of whatever you "worship" is likewise
nothing but play acting continued long
enough to be internalized, you talked
yourself into a convincing pseudo-
belief.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The premise of worshipping Satan, as a challenge in contrast to atheism.

So it’s just a thought experiment?

Intellectual honesty? There actually is no reason for intellectual honesty to get in the way of that.

It did for me.

Satanism is very broad in meaning. So, sort of. The premise is theistic Satanism, anyway.

Psst: theistic Satanists aren’t atheists.

Your OP suggested to me that you wanted atheists to sort of play around with the trappings of Satan in a way that would provoke a reaction from God; so you had something else in mind?

It's just a random example of theism, many others could be used.

So your OP really just boils down to “why aren’t atheists theists?”

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They're also practicing a different religion, it isn't semantics.

I know. That wasn’t my point earlier. My point was that the only reason why I wouldn’t consider Christians polytheists is their insistence that they aren’t. If not for that, I would probably consider the Trinity to be three gods, Satan another god, and a the various angels and demons as lesser gods.

In my mind, Christians (and Muslims) may as well be polytheists.