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Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.
One miracle that has mathematical proof is the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus feeds 5000 people with just couple of fish and a couple of loaves of bread. All Jesus had to do was divide the 2 loaves and 2 fish by 1/2500 to feed 5000 people, one fish and one loaf of break each. Division by a fraction has a multiplier effect in math. That math process is a science miracle and is part of the miracles of many theories and technology.

2/(1/2500)=5000. QED

QED is an initialism of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum, meaning "that which was to be demonstrated"
 

Balthazzar

Christian Evolutionist
Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.
I can't. I'd rather you stick to your own understanding of true. I reflect on what I understand and what I view to be something I need to understand. Yes, I came from somewhere and that somewhere helped shape my mentality. I don't care if you convert. Why would I ask you to reject your own upbringing and dishonor your mother and father?

Why not be afraid? There's much to fear in life.
 

alf

Member
Thanks for the thoughtful response but my mind is certainly not blind to a miracle. And there is no evidence of immaculate conception, just a story written 2000 years a go
Spiritual books and mythologies do not lose their content, they are written outside of time.

Let me clarify.
Try to create a story in which characters or objects will be justice, truth, love, hate, time, seasons, changes from baby to old man, soul, death and others.

Those terms are not dependent on time, whether you read them now or after 2000 years, they have the same meaning.


I'll give you an example..
In Greek mythology there is a character named Medusa, a terrifying figure who petrified anyone who looked into her eyes.

Only one man who had a shield as a mirror and through the reflection of the shield saw Medusa cutting off her head.

Medusa is the truth, she is so terrible that no human mind can look her in the eye without turning to stone.

Only if you make the heart (shield) like a mirror, through the heart you can see the truth and with it you can turn your enemies (lies) into stone.

So is the story of Jesus, who is a pure human soul as it is in the womb.
And the time or aeon is a virgin mother woman giving birth to her firstborn son.
Jesus is a harbinger of changes in humanity that will enter the new eon, and the old eon is falling apart. Alpha and Omega.

Everything is symbolism.
 

IbnUmmah

Member
Pliny's letter to Emperor Trajan, being adversaries of Christianity, constitutes authentic evidence that there was a Jesus venerated/worshiped as god (Elohim)/God.
Historical facts and significant statistics which can reproduce are different types of 'evidence'. My question was an attempt to ask the OP what he considers evidence to advance his challenge. It always best to establish the parameters of what is being asked before you rattle off, as otherwise threads deviate...
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.
The miracles have a place. There is a guide (13:7) who can perform such miracles, and the access to receive such proof is to turn to God often (13:27).

If you pray to God turning to him often with humble request, and this doesn't happen, you will have proven Quran to be a false book of a false promise at least to yourself.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Of an impressive miracle you personally witnessed? Yes, clearly.
This photo may appear ordinary, as it could be a low-probability coincidence for the rose to appear in the hand. However, the photo could also be framed in such a way that the rose appears exactly as it does in the hand. In your eyes, there may be no miracle in seeing this photo, considering the entire history surrounding this family, do you agree? But for others, this is considered a miracle.


That's how things happen.
 

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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This photo may appear ordinary, as it could be a low-probability coincidence for the rose to appear in the hand. However, the photo could also be framed in such a way that the rose appears exactly as it does in the hand. In your eyes, there may be no miracle in seeing this photo, considering the entire history surrounding this family, do you agree? But for others, this is considered a miracle.


That's how things happen.
Unfortunately while I can see the words "Attachments / 1.jpg", I can't see any photo.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
It is my opinion that you are trying to hard and are actually making it much more difficult than it needs to be.

Hence my "Shrek's is easier to understand".

So is your opinion that you can't even understand what I am saying? Besides Shrek and I both saying the same word "layers", where is your comparison?

The narrative suggests Shrek is not easy to understand.


Lets take a look at Shreks explanation.
  • Shrek: For your information, there's a lot more to ogres than people think.
  • Donkey: Example?
  • Shrek: Example... uh... ogres are like onions!
  • [holds up an onion, which Donkey sniffs]
  • Donkey: They stink?
  • Shrek: Yes... No!
  • Donkey: Oh, they make you cry?
  • Shrek: No!
  • Donkey: Oh, you leave 'em out in the sun, they get all brown, start sproutin' little white hairs...
  • Shrek: [peels an onion] NO! Layers. Onions have layers. Ogres have layers... You get it? We both have layers.
  • [walks off]
  • Donkey: Oh, you both have LAYERS. Oh. You know, not everybody like onions. CAKE! Everybody loves cake! Cakes have layers!
  • Shrek: I don't care what everyone likes! Ogres are not like cakes.
  • Donkey: You know what ELSE everybody likes? Parfaits! Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait."? Parfaits are delicious!
  • Shrek: NO! You dense, irritating, miniature beast of burden! Ogres are like onions! End of story! Bye-bye! See ya later.

So Ogres are like onions as both have layers. But Ogres are not like cakes which also have layers, end of story.

Shrek doesn't seem to explain in a way that is easy to understand. Yet you say it is easier than what I am saying. Which suggests that you can't understand/follow what I am saying.

But this other comment of yours doesn't seem to fit that angle:
I did not say I did not follow it.
I said that Shrek's is easier to follow.

Are you suggesting that you were actually able to follow what I was saying? But Shreks was easier? You are not making sense.

Are you trying to twist afterthought into your Shrek comment? I can't understand what you are saying.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
So is your opinion that you can't even understand what I am saying? Besides Shrek and I both saying the same word "layers", where is your comparison?

The narrative suggests Shrek is not easy to understand.


Lets take a look at Shreks explanation.
  • Shrek: For your information, there's a lot more to ogres than people think.
  • Donkey: Example?
  • Shrek: Example... uh... ogres are like onions!
  • [holds up an onion, which Donkey sniffs]
  • Donkey: They stink?
  • Shrek: Yes... No!
  • Donkey: Oh, they make you cry?
  • Shrek: No!
  • Donkey: Oh, you leave 'em out in the sun, they get all brown, start sproutin' little white hairs...
  • Shrek: [peels an onion] NO! Layers. Onions have layers. Ogres have layers... You get it? We both have layers.
  • [walks off]
  • Donkey: Oh, you both have LAYERS. Oh. You know, not everybody like onions. CAKE! Everybody loves cake! Cakes have layers!
  • Shrek: I don't care what everyone likes! Ogres are not like cakes.
  • Donkey: You know what ELSE everybody likes? Parfaits! Have you ever met a person, you say, "Let's get some parfait," they say, "Hell no, I don't like no parfait."? Parfaits are delicious!
  • Shrek: NO! You dense, irritating, miniature beast of burden! Ogres are like onions! End of story! Bye-bye! See ya later.

So Ogres are like onions as both have layers. But Ogres are not like cakes which also have layers, end of story.

Shrek doesn't seem to explain in a way that is easy to understand. Yet you say it is easier than what I am saying. Which suggests that you can't understand/follow what I am saying.

But this other comment of yours doesn't seem to fit that angle:


Are you suggesting that you were actually able to follow what I was saying? But Shreks was easier? You are not making sense.

Are you trying to twist afterthought into your Shrek comment? I can't understand what you are saying.
It is my opinion that you are trying to hard and are actually making it much more difficult than it needs to be.

Hence my "Shrek's is easier to understand".
 

Madsaac

Active Member
I don't believe the time period in which words are written has anything to do with their validity.

Are you serious?

Not only a very different time, a different place, a different culture and can you imagine the various motivations to write such a book and the motivations for marketing the bible, like Constantine.

And because of these reasons, there is way too many variables and it looses plenty of validity.
 

Madsaac

Active Member
You have two dominions that are abominable to God.
You cannot ask for eyes from the blind.

Ezekiel 8

He said, “Mortal man, break through the wall here.” I broke through it and found a door.
9 He told me, “Go in and look at the evil, disgusting things they are doing there.” 10 So I went in and looked. The walls were covered with drawings of snakes and other unclean animals, and of the other things which the Israelites were worshiping.
11 Seventy Israelite leaders were there, including Jaazaniah son of Shaphan. Each one was holding an incense burner, and smoke was rising from the incense.
12 God asked me, “Mortal man, do you see what the Israelite leaders are doing in secret? They are all worshiping in a room full of images. Their excuse is: ‘The Lord doesn't see us! He has abandoned the country.’”
13 Then the Lord said to me, “You are going to see them do even more disgusting things than that.”
14 So he took me to the north gate of the Temple and showed me women weeping over the death of the god Tammuz.

15 He asked, “Mortal man, do you see that? You will see even more disgusting things.”
16 So he took me to the inner courtyard of the Temple. There near the entrance of the sanctuary, between the altar and the porch, were about twenty-five men. They had turned their backs to the sanctuary and were bowing low toward the east, worshiping the rising sun.
17 The Lord said to me, “Mortal man, do you see that? These people of Judah are not satisfied with merely doing all the disgusting things you have seen here and with spreading violence throughout the country. No, they must come and do them right here in the Temple and make me even more angry. Look how they insult me in the most offensive way possible!

18 They will feel all the force of my anger. I will not spare them or show them any mercy. They will shout prayers to me as loud as they can, but I will not listen to them.”

How can you believe this? Its just a leap of FAITH. Just something written in a book.

If you believe this, you believe in Hobbits to be real.
 

Madsaac

Active Member
Do you accept that Jesus existed at all? Given he doesn't feature in the fossil record, scientifically, thus empirically, given we don't have his bones he is in effect a 'missing link'?

Yes I do, just a human, like us. He probably did some really cool stuff but in a human capacity only, no miracles.

And that's the point of the thread, prove he wasn't just another human who could perform miracles.
 
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Madsaac

Active Member
One miracle that has mathematical proof is the Sermon on the Mount, where Jesus feeds 5000 people with just couple of fish and a couple of loaves of bread. All Jesus had to do was divide the 2 loaves and 2 fish by 1/2500 to feed 5000 people, one fish and one loaf of break each. Division by a fraction has a multiplier effect in math. That math process is a science miracle and is part of the miracles of many theories and technology.

2/(1/2500)=5000. QED

QED is an initialism of the Latin phrase quod erat demonstrandum, meaning "that which was to be demonstrated"

Just a story, how do you know this happened? You can't, apart from your faith, you believe what you have been told or read in a book written 2000 years a go.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
It is my opinion that you are trying to hard and are actually making it much more difficult than it needs to be.

Hence my "Shrek's is easier to understand".
You repeating exactly the same thing can't make it any clearer, unless it changes perception.

So is your angle that onion was a simple enough answer that didn't require further explanation like talking about layers? Forget the layers. It is not cake. Then that would be some real deep Shrek that you are talking about.

This comment is why I couldn't understand your angle:
I did not say I did not follow it.
I said that Shrek's is easier to follow.

So are you saying that you can actually understand what I say, but I could explain it in a less difficult way?

Then lets talk onion. I can try to clearly explain exactly how the Biblical speech of miracles and prophecies work in a single word:

Zodiac.

Is that easier to understand?
 

Madsaac

Active Member
The miracles have a place. There is a guide (13:7) who can perform such miracles, and the access to receive such proof is to turn to God often (13:27).

If you pray to God turning to him often with humble request, and this doesn't happen, you will have proven Quran to be a false book of a false promise at least to yourself.

Yes mate, it's all about faith, not fact. If you believe in something then it's true.

I just think it would be better for the world, if humanity based more of there time on facts, rather then faith, less division for starters
 

IbnUmmah

Member
Yes I do, just a human, like us. He probably did some really cool stuff but in a human capacity only, no miracles.

And that's the point of the thread, prove he wasn't just another human who could perform miracles.
Well ok, thanks for clearing that up as it'll assist. I tend to agree I also agree he was 'just a human' tho I'd contest humans have a range of capabilities; not every human has the insight to reveal the double helix, the insight, technical knowhow, and one might venture bravado to split the building block of matter etc. To those without the same insights science can seem as miraculous...

It is for precisely this reason I chose the immaculate conception, the virgin birth. Absolutely NO human involvement in this miracle, Isa/Jesus was/is the miracle, not the performer of said miracle.
 
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