Cheating on someone you're in a dating relationship with?

[blackout]

I've seen and heard of all kinds of marriages put back together after alcoholism or some other form of abusiveness hurt a family. It can be done but it's important not to confuse lack of trust with unforgiveness.

Even if 'it' can be done, who the hell would want to?


Living with someone you can never really trust...
What is the up side?
Living with someone who once abused you?
no.

It's a done deal.


and for forgiveness?
you can only forgive a person who is sorry.
This is no reason to hold onto resentment and anger though.
This will only hurt you.
Even in a case where there has been remorse and forgiveness,
this is still no reason to think that attempts at an intimately loving relationship
should be embarked upon again.
It IS OK to move on.
It's healthy.

As well, It is not healthy or necessary to give up a lifetime of intimate love
because a previous partnership failed.

These are obvious Self evident truths,
that do not reqire any divine revelation.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Jungle if you had to see your dad beat your mom every night for seven years, not only would you understand why a woman could never forgive such a man, but you could understand why a son wouldn't want that marriage to work out.

 

[Draka]

What do we know Vi? We haven't any morals right? I mean, we don't take our morals from "God" and the bible, so we haven't a clue what's moral and what isn't. At least, that's the point I believe was pretty much made by him earlier in the thread.

 

[blackout]

I'm saying that trust isn't necessarily something that once broken it must stay broken forever and ever.

Humpty Dumpty sat on a Wall.
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the Kings horses
and all the Kings men
couldn't put humpty together again.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

How hopeful of you. Now, care to answer any of the rest of my post?

I just answered everthing except the last part of the post As far as the whole thing about going before the judge verses pledging before God, I'm giving it some thought so give me a minute on it.

 

[Amill]

Could somebody explain to me how someone who doesn't consider it a moral issue to have sex before marriage faces some huge moral dillema when he wants to "cheat" with someone he's not in the sacred dating relationship with? When did dating become bound by a sacred covenant as if it's a marriage?

Probably because the person understands how much pain it could cause his partner as well as the consequences it would mean for him or herself if they did cheat and were caught. Simple enough.

 

[blackout]

Jungle if you had to see your dad beat your mom every night for seven years, not only would you understand why a woman could never forgive such a man, but you could understand why a son wouldn't want that marriage to work out.

All the more reason she deserves... and needs a truly loving partner.

If people want to live and die by their own cruel religious doctrines
that is their own choice.
But to try and convince others that they need to... that they should...
do the same,
is a sin.

People should not be 'commanded' to cruel and needless suffering.
How obvious is this?

 

[blackout]

What do we know Vi? We haven't any morals right? I mean, we don't take our morals from "God" and the bible, so we haven't a clue what's moral and what isn't. At least, that's the point I believe was pretty much made by him earlier in the thread.

Well, and our promises are trash as well.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Even if 'it' can be done, who the hell would want to?



These are obvious Self evident truths,
that do not reqire any divine revelation.

It's that whole part about "till death do us part" that raises an issue. That is the definition of marriage, a lifetime commitment. I've never heard someone swear at their wedding to love someone till death separates them or they turn into an abusive jerk. If you don't like the promises of marriage or only plan on keeping them in certain circumstances then don't make them.

 

[blackout]

It's that whole part about "till death do us part" that raises an issue. That is the definition of marriage, a lifetime commitment. I've never heard someone swear at their wedding to love someone till death separates them or they turn into an abusive jerk. If you don't like the promises of marriage or only plan on keeping them in certain circumstances then don't make them.

And yet.... we have divorce.

It truly is a dumb promise to make.

 

[Draka]

It's that whole part about "till death do us part" that raises an issue. That is the definition of marriage, a lifetime commitment. I've never heard someone swear at their wedding to love someone till death separates them or they turn into an abusive jerk. If you don't like the promises of marriage or only plan on keeping them in certain circumstances then don't make them.

Not all forms of marriage are "lifetime commitments". In the Celtic tradition of Handfasting (a form of marriage) couples would agree to a time span to be together. When that time span came around it was time to either renew their vows for another round or part amicably. This acknowledged that things may change and circumstances may arise where a couple are not longer suited to be together. It also was held to be a bit more romantic because they really did marry each other all over again, again and again. Reaffirming that they want to be together. How many "lifetime" marriages do you think have that? Quite honestly, the presumption of "til death do us part" is a bit absurd. It does not take reality into account at all. There are some couples who do, indeed, spend their whole lives together but in the grand scheme of things...they are quite the minority.

 

[Father Heathen]

It's that whole part about "till death do us part" that raises an issue. That is the definition of marriage, a lifetime commitment. I've never heard someone swear at their wedding to love someone till death separates them or they turn into an abusive jerk. If you don't like the promises of marriage or only plan on keeping them in certain circumstances then don't make them.

Then I guess the lesson we take from that is not to write foolish or unrealistic wedding vows. To suffer needlessly just to humor some arbitrary and irrational cultural norm is senseless. To suggest such a thing pleases god makes a mockery of him, because it suggests that he's either a sadistic freak or a brainless oaf.

 

[Alceste]

No you aren't commend to a miserable life. You're simply in a state where the power of God will have to be enough to sustain you through the time of trial. Being sustained by the grace and power of God is a strange concept to those who haven't experience or don't even consider it real. If you've been a Christian long enough it's something that becomes a way of life for a season or two. It's in these times of trials and deliverance however that give people the opportunity to experience miracles to wonderful for words

I don't need an imaginary father to "sustain" me - I am an adult human female. I sustain myself and do what I can to sustain those around me. In all my experience and by all accounts, that has always been more than adequate.

There is nothing your deity can do for me that I can not do or have not already done for myself. I don't claim you are also capable of "sustaining" yourself without your god. Perhaps you aren't. Maybe for you, the idea of a supreme moral arbitor is necessary to keep you from doing evil. If so, please continue to believe as fervently as you can!

 

[Alceste]

Not all forms of marriage are "lifetime commitments". In the Celtic tradition of Handfasting (a form of marriage) couples would agree to a time span to be together. When that time span came around it was time to either renew their vows for another round or part amicably. This acknowledged that things may change and circumstances may arise where a couple are not longer suited to be together. It also was held to be a bit more romantic because they really did marry each other all over again, again and again. Reaffirming that they want to be together. How many "lifetime" marriages do you think have that? Quite honestly, the presumption of "til death do us part" is a bit absurd. It does not take reality into account at all. There are some couples who do, indeed, spend their whole lives together but in the grand scheme of things...they are quite the minority.

That's what Wampus and I are planning for next summer.

I could not make a promise if there were any possibility of my breaking it that I could conceive of at the time. The "for better or worse, til death do us part" aspect of Christian vows is not possible for me - there are lines that simply can not be crossed if a man wants me by his side. Lots of them! Fortunately for me, Wampus is not the type to cross them.

OTOH, I've heard dozens of Christians make these very vows and seen half those unions terminate long before death. That leads me to wonder if Christians in general might be people of questionable integrity.

 

[Starsoul]

I'm really just trying to find out if people's moral standards go beyond loving their friends and people that are nice to them. In my experience that's where people's love usually ends. I'm wondering if people believe in helping people that are down, even if no one else ever finds out about it.

Your moral standards can only go beyond the normal standards, when you seek what is beyond them, some seek a close relationship with God, some seek spirituality, and spirituality has a dark and a light side. When the light side of spirituality isn't being sought, you are just about quite free to brand morality on anything that you do, since it is self-justified by how good you feel towards it, no matter how devious it may be to someone else.

e.g A serial killer might immensely enjoy the experience of murdering people, it is justified to him because thats what he really wants to do as it may give him some sense of power, self worth, pleasure. His spiritual high is met when he is quite in touch with his dark side. Is he wrong in his right to please himself?

What about normal people, who don't get to go kill/do crime to satisfy their souls? Perhaps then comes the cheating, lying ,deceiving and living it out, because for them, that is where their dark side of the soul is being re-juvenated. Obviously, nobody would cheat knowing or acknowledging that 'cheating in dating causes hurt', they do it for the thrill of it; the thrill which leads to nothing but shallowness, but they'd do it as long as it works for them; their arrogant self serving selves which cannot see beyond their own shallow moral standards.

 

[Azekual]

It's that whole part about "till death do us part" that raises an issue. That is the definition of marriage, a lifetime commitment. I've never heard someone swear at their wedding to love someone till death separates them or they turn into an abusive jerk. If you don't like the promises of marriage or only plan on keeping them in certain circumstances then don't make them.

First off, marriage exists independently of the Abrahamic faiths. Wiccans have their own marriage (though I don't recall if it is a "lifetime" marriage), so do Celts, Japanese, Hindus (sp), and any other culture that has an importance on family (let me give you a hint: only a small handful don't view family as important).

Second, until fairly recently in European and American history, most marriages were arranged. It eliminated the choices of the betrothed (more so the bride), however, it had the side effects of keeping the couple together (divorces were either impossible or heavily discouraged) and leading them to form a relationship based on respect and companionship rather lust and love (though the former does lead to love eventually).

Modern couples are not bound by that restriction, and have pretty well turned marriage into a ticking time-bomb version of Celtic marriage. Personal choice is the undoing of marriage.

Third, Marriage isn't always for the lifetime commitment, some people marry so they can gain certain benefits. Aside from the gold diggers, there are the legal immigrants who choose to use marriage as a method to faster naturalization (if someone has found an express lane to becoming a legal citizen, I'm all for it), the homosexuals who want to be married so they can share insurance plans, get tax deductions, and half dozen more rights Civil Unions don't grant you, and the list goes on. Christian marriage has lost all sanctity, it's more a status symbol that you get bored with.

 

[no-body]

What standard do you use to determine if you are a moral person? Your own standards? If that's the case I'm not remotely surprised you measure up to it.

And what standard does your supposed God use? You aren't even allowed to question it because no matter what it's right. What kind of morality is that? To be stuck forever with misogynistic, homophobic, racist morals doesn't sound too appealing to me.

Secular morality is based on empathy and what is best for society. It evolves as people and culture evolves along with standards. It isn't perfect but nothing really is, and it's still better than sticking to the morality of a bunch of ancient desert shepherds and calling them revelations from God.

 

[averageJOE]

It's that whole part about "till death do us part" that raises an issue. That is the definition of marriage, a lifetime commitment. I've never heard someone swear at their wedding to love someone till death separates them or they turn into an abusive jerk. If you don't like the promises of marriage or only plan on keeping them in certain circumstances then don't make them.

The phrase "Till death do us part" was never in the wedding vows of my wife and I. We used the phrase "Death will not part, only lack of love and respect." Till death do us part is a stupid, unrealistic promise.

 

[Alceste]

The phrase "Till death do us part" was never in the wedding vows of my wife and I. We used the phrase "Death will not part, only lack of love and respect." Till death do us part is a stupid, unrealistic promise.

I suppose in a figurative sense, one could interpret that phrase to mean the death of the bond of trust and respect that makes a healthy relationship possible... but why bother saying it if it only needs to be rationalized later?

I haven't thought of any good vows for my handfasting yet. Thinking up promises is not an easy job for an skeptical apophatic psychonaut. lol.

 

[crocusj]

I've never heard someone swear at their wedding to love someone till death separates them or they turn into an abusive jerk.

Then they should have.