Photonic
Ad astra!
that sounds awesome. It would probably take me years until I understand it though
This bit isn't that hard to understand.
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Children in Heaven
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
This bit isn't that hard to understand.
Nucleosynthesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Photonic
Ad astra!
We'll just have to agree to disagree
God created me knowing absolutely my entire future for eternity (he is all knowing isn't he?)
So yes, it is completely his fault. There is no agreeing to disagree, you just don't like it when you know your stance makes no sense.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
This comment flies in the face of rational thought. Clearly if you come from a family that is Christian, and the majority of Christians today come from a Christian family. You have an advantage in going to Heaven. It takes almost no hardship for you. You just go to church (many are forced to go any way) at some point they just walk up at the alter call and receive Jesus. They must make the choice not to be a Christian. Their whole envorment is pushing them to become a Christian. It takes very energy or choice. Many people only have bad experiences with both Christians and Christianity. If they hear that gospel they have little reason to except it. It is just philosophical back ground noise. The idea that all can freely make that choice is what I call thinking in a vacuum tube. It might be true in your belief system but it has almost no bases in the real world.
I know a Hindu woman (she was a professor at UC California) She went to a Christian Missionary school in India. Every morning her father would put the ritual marks on her forehead. Her christian teacher would not allow her into class because of it. (He would allow no signs of Hinduism in his class) She had to stand outside even if it was raining, take her tests outside no matter what the weather was like. She endured this humiliation at the hands of Christians because she and her family was poor. It was the only way to get a good education. You telling me her rejection of CHristianity is moot she has an equal chance as a girl who was raised in a church. It is self evident that your views are wrong. All do not have an equal chance.
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I suspect Christians will have a harder time then most others getting into heaven. They try to make Jesus accountable for their sins. Do they really think God is going to let people in who are not willing to be accountable for their actions?
The basic idea of letting someone else be accountable for your sins is immoral. I'd prefer not to accept the concept of a God who lets heaven be filled with immoral people.
Neptune0461
New Member
Hello, I am new to this site and have been reading the comments in amazement! It seems noone really reads the bible of what it actually says. It does not promise heaven at death and it certainly does not promise everlasting hell. The word hell defined in the bible refers to a burning garbage dump at the time. Eternal death is death. You can not feal anything. However in the finality of it all means seperation from God and it will be as if you were never more than dirt. You will not remember, you will feel no pain. The modern Church-anity is severly flawed. The bible speaks directly about heaven as well. Heaven will be brought down to earth and God and his son will reign forever. Have you ever heard the term " born again "? Christ himself was very clear with his message. You must be first born again in incorruption. The modern church does not get it. It is not just spiritual it is also physical. I do not like to call it reincarnation but you and I as well as babies, people who have heard the gospel, people who have not heard the gospel, people from other religions, babies who died at birth, etc. Will be given a new life. However we all have been born in corruption of this world. We will all be given the opportunity to be born in the light as babies once again. Only this time we will know what it is like without the dark forces of evil satin and the demons or fallen angels that rage havic on this earth. Then all in their appointed time will be tested. If you then, after seeing the truth, turn away from the truth you will then in mercy see the second death which is permanent and forever. Not in pain and suffering but forever cut off from God. You will be as dirt, nothing more. There will be however, people who overcome in this lifetime and they are the 144,000 who are the elect of all humanity ever born during this time. Dont worry most of us do not fit into this catagory. You will have an opportunity. There are only a few people that are the false profits, preachers, lucifer and the fallen angels that will not have an opportunity for salvation. There is no such thing as once saved, always saved. Gods son died to give us all an opportunity of salvation. This is a very compact explanation but I tried.
ForeverFaithful
Son Worshiper
Okay so reading over this forum I've come to the conclusion most people who believe in the immortality of the soul believe there is some value to this life
Why? Why is there value you here? The way I look at it, I've been dumped in this strange place without a clue which way is up, Every time I think I have God it doesn't last
What if I follow the wrong prophet or if I commit the unpardonable sin?
Why is it better that I live this life if it's just 80 years of fear of damnation?
It would have been better for me to be aborted no?
Why? Why is there value you here? The way I look at it, I've been dumped in this strange place without a clue which way is up, Every time I think I have God it doesn't last
What if I follow the wrong prophet or if I commit the unpardonable sin?
Why is it better that I live this life if it's just 80 years of fear of damnation?
It would have been better for me to be aborted no?
especially as most think you'd end up in heaven after an abortion. My view is that if God doesn't let you in despite you're willingness to enter and your effort to live a good life then he's not worth following.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
As an outsider looking in, that seems to be the ideal of Christianity. We are pilgrims in a strange land going to our true home in the presence of God.
I rarely bother these days to debate the theological positions of exclusive, hellfire religions. I find them to usually be demonstrably irrational to the point where debate isn't relevant.
But I'm currently discussing a hellfire variant of Islam, so I guess why not do it for Christianity.
I think the thread demonstrates accurately the various types of rocks and hard places that Abrahamic hellfire theology finds itself stuck between. It would probably be best depicted with a humorous flowchart rather than a wall of text.
You start with the position of having a religious person preach that only people who believe certain things, go to heaven, and that others suffer endlessly. Theologies that instead propose reincarnation, universalism, or even to some extent annihilationism, don't run into the problems as presented in this thread, and neither do atheist/agnostic/irreligious positions.
The next immediate question from a skeptical person would be, "What of children? Or what of people who never heard that belief?"
This is the first rock/hard place fork in the road, because if you answer a) Children can indeed suffer endlessly in this theology and people who never heard of this belief are still accountable and can suffer endlessly, then the response should be to tell this person to look up the word malevolent in the dictionary and ask why they'd worship such a thing. If, instead, they answer b) Children are excused and go to heaven, and people who never heard of such beliefs aren't held accountable to them, then they avoid that first pitfall but bring on a second one.
Answering with b) leads to the next rock/hard place fork in the road, because the next question is, "Then why tell anyone? If your religion is true, the best thing you could do is not tell anyone, ever. And/or kill infants."
If the answer is that this is a valid argument, then a religion would die out quickly, either due to death or due to a lack of proselytism. Survivor bias indicates that any extant religion doesn't do this. Otherwise, the receiver of the question has to come up with an answer for why mortal life is worthwhile in the face of such an extremist theological position.
They could, for instance, point out that people learn in life, that heaven can't be fully enjoyed by children, and so on and so forth. But then the skeptical person could argue that children who die young get the short end of the stick then, since an optimal eternity has been denied to them through no fault of their own, and that reincarnation would be a better system.
Ultimately, this is why I view such theologies as inherently less rational than some other religious frameworks. Proposing eternal outcomes for finite and impermanent situations opens up all sorts of problems.
But I'm currently discussing a hellfire variant of Islam, so I guess why not do it for Christianity.
I think the thread demonstrates accurately the various types of rocks and hard places that Abrahamic hellfire theology finds itself stuck between. It would probably be best depicted with a humorous flowchart rather than a wall of text.
You start with the position of having a religious person preach that only people who believe certain things, go to heaven, and that others suffer endlessly. Theologies that instead propose reincarnation, universalism, or even to some extent annihilationism, don't run into the problems as presented in this thread, and neither do atheist/agnostic/irreligious positions.
The next immediate question from a skeptical person would be, "What of children? Or what of people who never heard that belief?"
This is the first rock/hard place fork in the road, because if you answer a) Children can indeed suffer endlessly in this theology and people who never heard of this belief are still accountable and can suffer endlessly, then the response should be to tell this person to look up the word malevolent in the dictionary and ask why they'd worship such a thing. If, instead, they answer b) Children are excused and go to heaven, and people who never heard of such beliefs aren't held accountable to them, then they avoid that first pitfall but bring on a second one.
Answering with b) leads to the next rock/hard place fork in the road, because the next question is, "Then why tell anyone? If your religion is true, the best thing you could do is not tell anyone, ever. And/or kill infants."
If the answer is that this is a valid argument, then a religion would die out quickly, either due to death or due to a lack of proselytism. Survivor bias indicates that any extant religion doesn't do this. Otherwise, the receiver of the question has to come up with an answer for why mortal life is worthwhile in the face of such an extremist theological position.
They could, for instance, point out that people learn in life, that heaven can't be fully enjoyed by children, and so on and so forth. But then the skeptical person could argue that children who die young get the short end of the stick then, since an optimal eternity has been denied to them through no fault of their own, and that reincarnation would be a better system.
Ultimately, this is why I view such theologies as inherently less rational than some other religious frameworks. Proposing eternal outcomes for finite and impermanent situations opens up all sorts of problems.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Not hearing the Gospel as an excuse to not go to damnation is not a Biblical position.
Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
So you disagree with the majority of the old testament, that is to say what God commanded for 98 to 99% of our species time on this planet???
Do you also disagree with Jesus' death If the outcome was salvation for a select few?
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Blackdog22
Well-Known Member
You say that as if it was okay to torture angels "forever". Whether he set up hell for the angels he supposedly "loved" or people he supposedly "loves" is irrelevant. The problem is he set up a torture chamber and that is evil.
No the choice isn't ours because you haven't proven God exists. We know speed limits exist, we know cops exist, we know tickets exist and have good reason for following the speed limit because we know accidents happen. You nor anyone else can show me God so your analogy makes no sense. It is like comparing fairies to bowls, its nonsense and completely irrational.
Again, your comparing reality and physical being to something nonphysical. It is complete nonsense. Your children can see you, hear you, talk to you, touch you. Your husband can also hear you, talk to you etc. while you are talking to your kids to confirm that you actually do exist. God is an invisible being that is beyond space and time which has no comparison to what your saying. Also, are you really comparing getting wet to burning in hell forever? Really? You think that is fair comparison?
By action I am assuming you mean being honest with oneself by admitting they don't know whether God exists. Faith is an excuse to believe in something that you can't possibly know about. It is not an "action" it is a state of mind that leads to no sort of truth. Unless you have seen Jesus and touched his hands you are just engaging in wishful thinking and if you think that being honest and saying "I don't know" deserves eternal torture then I don't consider your position moral.
Having said this I do respect your right to believe what you want.
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What do you mean?
Can't you do those things in Heaven?I suppose, if the only goal in life was to reach heaven. For most Christians, receiving salvation isn't the only goal in life
Yes - that's what makes the act selfless: you give up infinite reward for yourself, but secure it for someone else. You give up everything while giving them everything.
How is that selfless? It only sounds self-serving to me; all you talked about here was the reward for yourself.IMO the most selfless/humble act possible is to give ones life to Jesus Christ as soon as one comes to the understanding that they sin (do wrong things) and ask God's forgiveness for doing wrong. You get to live life AND obtain eternity with God
Even if you can't figure out the exact age, couldn't you establish some sort of lower limit? I mean, even if we debate whether the age is 18 or 13 or 6, we could probably agree that an infant that hasn't even learned to talk yet isn't accountable for his actions.
... so given the idea of Heaven and Hell, aren't you playing Russian Roulette with your child's eternal life by allowing him to grow up beyond this point?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
My desire is to last and follow God's second commandment given to man.
pwfaith
Active Member
As I asked earlier, how does the world continue? Or is it a way of "weeding out" religious people from the world? Obviously atheists wouldn't care or other religions where hell is not part of their belief system, right? How would our family line continue, as well as our call to share our faith and teach it to our children, if we simply kill off all our children as infants? It's a big atheist plot isn't it :lol *atheists rub hands together* "Let's get the Christians to kill off all their infants, preying on their desire for heaven, and that will end them all" *evil laughs*
Just kidding! (I hope )No, I don't feel I am, every day I get to teach them about God and the world around them. I pray for them, for God to speak to their hearts and show himself to them. Thankfully 3 of out 5 children have already made a decision to accept Christ.
Me Myself
Back to my username
As I asked earlier, how does the world continue? Or is it a way of "weeding out" religious people from the world? Obviously atheists wouldn't care or other religions where hell is not part of their belief system, right? How would our family line continue, as well as our call to share our faith and teach it to our children, if we simply kill off all our children as infants? It's a big atheist plot isn't it :lol *atheists rub hands together* "Let's get the Christians to kill off all their infants, preying on their desire for heaven, and that will end them all" *evil laughs*
If God wants more souls he can create them.
I hope
p )
ForeverFaithful
Son Worshiper
What's the point of continuing this world?As I asked earlier, how does the world continue? Or is it a way of "weeding out" religious people from the world? Obviously atheists wouldn't care or other religions where hell is not part of their belief system, right? How would our family line continue, as well as our call to share our faith and teach it to our children, if we simply kill off all our children as infants? It's a big atheist plot isn't it :lol *atheists rub hands together* "Let's get the Christians to kill off all their infants, preying on their desire for heaven, and that will end them all" *evil laughs*
No, I don't feel I am, every day I get to teach them about God and the world around them. I pray for them, for God to speak to their hearts and show himself to them. Thankfully 3 of out 5 children have already made a decision to accept Christ.
pwfaith
Active Member
Besides being a wife and mother, daughter and sister, and friend - imo it's also to live for God, sharing the gospel message with others - through word and life. As is being discussed in another thread - Matthew 28, the great commission.
ForeverFaithful
Son Worshiper
Seems like the risks out way the benefits