Children in Heaven

[PolyHedral]

People were never intended to go to hell when they were created.

God is all-knowing, isn't he?

People were created perfect and good.

There are many engineers who'd disagree.

The fault solely lies with the person who made the choice to do wrong instead of right. Period. It is they who deserve whatever penalty comes from their bad choice.

Assuming the rules themselves are just. This isn't necessarily the case.

 

[pwfaith]

I just wanted to put a couple cents for what its worth. One big issue is the fact that we are put into a world that will bound us to sin. There seems to be some ambiguity as to whether God wants us to even go on let alone bring another sinner into the world.

One problem with your theology, we were not originally put into a world of sin. We were originally put into a world that was perfect and sin-free. We brought sin into the world. So the real question is why were we created in the first place and why didn't God just wipe out the entire world with the flood, instead of saving Noah and his family? You'd have to read the story of the flood to know the answer to that though There would be no world if we simply killed every infant. Murdering innocent human beings isn't the way God wants or designed salvation. God wants it to be a choice. He wants people to love and accept Him b/c they want to, not b/c they are forced to. God wants praise and honor and glory given to Him for all the good He does, not just a heaven full of people. He cares about earth as much as He does Heaven. He created both. Heaven is just the final end of the journey, there is more to being a Christian and being saved than just a "free ride" to heaven. Which seems to be the biggest thing people are missing by advocating killing infants. Which btw God hates. Proverbs talks about 7 things God hates - one of them being the shedding of innocent blood. What has the child done to deserve death? Are they not innocent? If so then why would God want people to "mercy kill" children if He says he hates it?

 

[pwfaith]

What free will? If your born in a muslim family the odds are very small you will become a Christian. Born in to a Christian family much better chance to receive Jesus as your personal savour. Some definitely have advantages.

Not necessarily. I know plenty of Christian families where one or more of their children have rejected the Christian faith. People have a choice, no matter what the faith of their parents are. They have the choice to accept or reject the faith of their parents, accept or reject God and his gift of salvation. There are very few people on this earth who have not heard the gospel message, at that point they have free will to accept it or reject it - their reasons for rejecting are moot. They have still rejected. Everyone has the same chance once they have heard they are a sinner, God loves them and Jesus died for their sins. Every person who hears that has the same chance to receive it as true or reject it. It's an individual choice, regardless of your family background.

 

[pwfaith]

God has accepted the dead of incontable babies. If free will was so invaluable, why did god alloed them to die without making a choice?

This is a tough question, esp as a Christian who has lost 2 children to miscarriages. While God works the supernatural into our nature world sometimes, living in the natural world also comes with consequences of the Fall. And part of that is the death of those who die before their time Free will is not just the freedom to do right things, it is also the freedom to do wrong things, which can sometimes end in the result of the death of an innocent child. We all suffer these consequences in the natural world due to the Fall, times when we should have free will over something but we don't due to the effects of the Fall or choices of someone else. God's desire was a sin-free world, perfect where we did not have to suffer this way but we brought sin into the world and created this problem. Free will was intended as a good thing but now b/c of sin it can sometimes be a bad thing, due to our own weakness and giving in to temptation and sin. God allows them into heaven b/c were never given a chance to accept or reject him and God is fair and just, good and loving. It is not that free will is some grand thing, it's simply how things are, but God will also bring good from everything.

robots cannot feel emotions and won´t be blissful in paradise (but got nothing against robot servants ). Saving someone from a finite stupidity that would cost him INFINITE punishment is just the compassionate thing to do if you believe in such things.

Again, I remove their choice though. What if they want that finite stupidity and don't care what the eternal cost is?

Of course given that I believe God actually loves every one of his children, I know he would never have created a human that he knows would go to hell. If he knows he will go to hell if he creates him, why create him? He is not trashing anyone´s free will, becvause the person hasn´t existed yet.

As I asked above, what of those who don't want God's love and don't want to go to heaven? Does God just make them? I've heard people say they wanted to go to hell b/c they think it's going to be a party. Or do they just not exist really? I agree God loves everyone he has created. But I disagree that everyone is automatically going to heaven. What of these people who don't want to go to heaven, where is their free will? You seem to think that only people who are going to heaven have a purpose in this life. I disagree with that. I believe everyone has a purpose, no matter what their belief about God and heaven. I believe everyone is made in the image of God. There are many brilliant non-Christians who have helped advance our world through those characteristics and abilities from God, yet they still reject him and Scripture says "they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20)

There is a logical problem with not creating people who go to hell. It would mean that no one would go to heaven. You see, without the crucifixion no one could be saved. But, in order for Jesus to be crucified, evil people had to lie about Him and murder Him. His crucifixion is the means by which we are saved. So, if God doesn't create people He knows will go to hell, then there would have been no crucifixion by which people could be saved. In that case, all people would go to hell. Therefore, if God was to not make anyone who would go to hell, then He would not make anyone at all and you and I would not be having this conversation

So if God has a hell that is eternal, and knows who is going to sin, he could simply not create people that will go there, and only create those who he knows will take the smart choice all by themselves.

He could, but that's not reality. Reality is, there are evil, sinful people. We are ALL sinners. God knows we are ALL going to sin. God will try to reach every person before their death (assuming they are of an age of accountability and can understand - which only He knows that age for each individual). If everyone is automatically on their way to heaven, what was the purpose of Christ's death and resurrection? Why have people died throughout history for preaching this message of love, sacrifice and salvation. People DO make stupid choices, we see it every day. So I'm sorry I just don't see how anyone can think God only creates good, smart people who will all chose to accept Him. We have plenty of people here who have not. To me that's evidence enough that this view is incorrect.

I mean if hell leaves up to it´s name, people are better off not existing that going there.

People are better off accepting God's gift of salvation They don't have to go to hell, nobody does. Each individual makes that choice though, of their own free will.

 

[9Westy9]

No it means they chose not to accept God's grace through faith in Jesus. There is no trying. You either accept Christ or you reject Him. Those who accept Christ will travel the narrow path, those who don't will follow the broad path.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14

Nobody "misses out". It's a choice every individual makes, an intentional choice. People only "miss out" if they chose to by rejecting Christ.

No it means they rejected a religion that they didn't see any truth to and are then punished for this. It's like condemning Christians to hell for not following Allah. It's not just to condemn on belief or a lack of belief.

 

[9Westy9]

Anyone who accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior will be saved. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Romans 10:13 "For, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Anyone who rejects Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior will not be saved. Those who accept will live eternally with God. Those who reject Christ (atheist or otherwise - atheists are not the only ones who reject Christ, many religious people do as well) will live eternally separated from God.

God knows the heart of every man, woman and child. God knows if one has accepted or denied His gift of salvation in their heart. Each individual will be judged accordingly. It is not my job to judge the heart of each individual, it is only God's. I only know what will happen to those who do and those who don't. It is between the individual and God to know which applies to them personally.

As for apostates, I found this a while ago and thought it was interesting What is apostasy and how can I recognize it?
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So what is the place where non-Christians go like? I used to subscribe to the eternal hell full of suffering and wondered if you do too? Also I'm part of the second form of apostasy

 

[pwfaith]

No it means they rejected a religion that they didn't see any truth to and are then punished for this. It's like condemning Christians to hell for not following Allah. It's not just to condemn on belief or a lack of belief.

And this leads to a whole nother debate I don't believe Christianity is just another religion like any other. Being a Christian is having a personal relationship with God. It's not condemning for lack of random belief, it's consequence for rejecting the only way, truth and life - Jesus Christ. As I said though, that's a whole nother debate and I'm sure if you look around there are plenty already on that subject so I don't derail this thread by going further into that.

 

[Photonic]

This is a tough question, esp as a Christian who has lost 2 children to miscarriages. While God works the supernatural into our nature world sometimes, living in the natural world also comes with consequences of the Fall. And part of that is the death of those who die before their time Free will is not just the freedom to do right things, it is also the freedom to do wrong things, which can sometimes end in the result of the death of an innocent child. We all suffer these consequences in the natural world due to the Fall, times when we should have free will over something but we don't due to the effects of the Fall or choices of someone else. God's desire was a sin-free world, perfect where we did not have to suffer this way but we brought sin into the world and created this problem. Free will was intended as a good thing but now b/c of sin it can sometimes be a bad thing, due to our own weakness and giving in to temptation and sin. God allows them into heaven b/c were never given a chance to accept or reject him and God is fair and just, good and loving. It is not that free will is some grand thing, it's simply how things are, but God will also bring good from everything.



Again, I remove their choice though. What if they want that finite stupidity and don't care what the eternal cost is?



As I asked above, what of those who don't want God's love and don't want to go to heaven? Does God just make them? I've heard people say they wanted to go to hell b/c they think it's going to be a party. Or do they just not exist really? I agree God loves everyone he has created. But I disagree that everyone is automatically going to heaven. What of these people who don't want to go to heaven, where is their free will? You seem to think that only people who are going to heaven have a purpose in this life. I disagree with that. I believe everyone has a purpose, no matter what their belief about God and heaven. I believe everyone is made in the image of God. There are many brilliant non-Christians who have helped advance our world through those characteristics and abilities from God, yet they still reject him and Scripture says "they are without excuse" (Romans 1:20)

There is a logical problem with not creating people who go to hell. It would mean that no one would go to heaven. You see, without the crucifixion no one could be saved. But, in order for Jesus to be crucified, evil people had to lie about Him and murder Him. His crucifixion is the means by which we are saved. So, if God doesn't create people He knows will go to hell, then there would have been no crucifixion by which people could be saved. In that case, all people would go to hell. Therefore, if God was to not make anyone who would go to hell, then He would not make anyone at all and you and I would not be having this conversation


He could, but that's not reality. Reality is, there are evil, sinful people. We are ALL sinners. God knows we are ALL going to sin. God will try to reach every person before their death (assuming they are of an age of accountability and can understand - which only He knows that age for each individual). If everyone is automatically on their way to heaven, what was the purpose of Christ's death and resurrection? Why have people died throughout history for preaching this message of love, sacrifice and salvation. People DO make stupid choices, we see it every day. So I'm sorry I just don't see how anyone can think God only creates good, smart people who will all chose to accept Him. We have plenty of people here who have not. To me that's evidence enough that this view is incorrect.



People are better off accepting God's gift of salvation They don't have to go to hell, nobody does. Each individual makes that choice though, of their own free will.

There is no free will in your belief system, you are made by a deity that knows exactly what he is creating before he creates it. Including it's entire future and the effects it will have for eternity.

In other words, he is cruel at the very VERY least.

 

[pwfaith]

So what is the place where non-Christians go like? I used to subscribe to the eternal hell full of suffering and wondered if you do too? Also I'm part of the second form of apostasy

As I said in the quote you provided, anyone who rejects Christ will be eternally separated from God. If you are asking do I believe in hell? Yes. What hell will be like? I don't think I even fully know. I just know it is a place completely and totally without God. Without his blessings, supernatural works, no good at all, no beauty, no joy, no happiness, etc. What that will look like, I just don't know, I can hardly imagine it. I see all the good around me, all the things that make me happy, bring me joy, make my life better - even the warm sun shining down on my face, light breeze and smell of the ocean, sleep and how it makes me feel refreshed in the morning (or afternoon if it's a nap lol), laughter of my children, hug from one of them, caress of my husband, food and how it soothes my body, comfort food that seems to sooth the soul on a rough day, peace that I feel in my heart, light when it comes on in a dark room when I'm scared, etc. All these things and many many more will not exist. All those things are gifts from God, all good in the world is from God (whether one believes in God or not), and hell is separation from all of it

 

[9Westy9]

And this leads to a whole nother debate I don't believe Christianity is just another religion like any other. Being a Christian is having a personal relationship with God. It's not condemning for lack of random belief, it's consequence for rejecting the only way, truth and life - Jesus Christ. As I said though, that's a whole nother debate and I'm sure if you look around there are plenty already on that subject so I don't derail this thread by going further into that.

I started one myself http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/theological-concepts/125977-just-god-condemns-belief.html

 

[9Westy9]

As I said in the quote you provided, anyone who rejects Christ will be eternally separated from God. If you are asking do I believe in hell? Yes. What hell will be like? I don't think I even fully know. I just know it is a place completely and totally without God. Without his blessings, supernatural works, no good at all, no beauty, no joy, no happiness, etc. What that will look like, I just don't know, I can hardly imagine it. I see all the good around me, all the things that make me happy, bring me joy, make my life better - even the warm sun shining down on my face, light breeze and smell of the ocean, sleep and how it makes me feel refreshed in the morning (or afternoon if it's a nap lol), laughter of my children, hug from one of them, caress of my husband, food and how it soothes my body, comfort food that seems to sooth the soul on a rough day, peace that I feel in my heart, light when it comes on in a dark room when I'm scared, etc. All these things and many many more will not exist. All those things are gifts from God, all good in the world is from God (whether one believes in God or not), and hell is separation from all of it

and this is why I'm no longer a Christian

 

[Photonic]

and this is why I'm no longer a Christian

It's all a tad horrifying isn't it? It's the same reason I didn't buy into it when I was in elementary school, after having it shoved down my throat from birth. I'm so happy little me was smart enough to teach himself about ancient egyptian theology and physics.

 

[pwfaith]

There is no free will in your belief system, you are made by a deity that knows exactly what he is creating before he creates it. Including it's entire future and the effects it will have for eternity.

In other words, he is cruel at the very VERY least.

Knowing doesn't mean no free will. Let's say I make a batch of cookies. I'm not all knowing but as a mom I have a pretty good knowledge of my children, esp each one I can pretty much guarantee the little one will try to sneak one. I know her Let's say I warn her they are hot and not to touch them. And in knowing her I will even move the cookies out of reach and offer her another snack until they are cooled enough for her to have one. She still has the freedom of choice to listen to me or do her own thing - she has the choice to walk out of the kitchen and enjoy her little snack and wait or she has the choice to move the chair over to the counter, climb up the chair, climb the counter and still get to the cookies. She still has free will to obey or disobey me, even though I can pretty much guarantee she will do the later, but I hope and encourage her to do the former.

Even though God may know what choices we will make before we make them, He will always allow them to make them on our own. He doesn't make them for us, even though he already knows what choice we will make. Knowing doesn't mean making the choice for us. I do believe God will try to encourage us to do the right thing and will always provide a way out of temptation but it's our decision on how we handle it, if we listen to God and obey Him, or disobey.

 

[pwfaith]

and this is why I'm no longer a Christian

And that is your freedom of choice God gave you

 

[Photonic]

:lol knowing doesn't mean no free will. Let's say I make a batch of cookies. I'm not all knowing but as a mom I have a pretty good knowledge of my children, esp each one I can pretty much guarantee the little one will try to sneak one. I know her Let's say I warn her they are hot and not to touch them. And in knowing her I will even move the cookies out of reach and offer her another snack until they are cooled enough for her to have one. She still has the freedom of choice to listen to me or do her own thing - she has the choice to walk out of the kitchen and enjoy her little snack and wait or she has the choice to move the chair over to the counter, climb up the chair, climb the counter and still get to the cookies. She still has free will to obey or disobey me, even though I can pretty much guarantee she will do the later, but I hope and encourage her to do the former.

Even though God may know what choices we will make before we make them, He will always allow them to make them on our own. He doesn't make them for us, even though he already knows what choice we will make. Knowing doesn't mean making the choice for us. I do believe God will try to encourage us to do the right thing and will always provide a way out of temptation but it's our decision on how we handle it, if we listen to God and obey Him, or disobey.

If he knows everything you do absolutely before anything is ever done to create you, your future is set. You are created with the full knowledge you will go to hell.

 

[9Westy9]

It's all a tad horrifying isn't it? It's the same reason I didn't buy into it when I was in elementary school, after having it shoved down my throat from birth. I'm so happy little me was smart enough to teach himself about ancient egyptian theology and physics.

I wasn't so lucky. I believed this till I went to uni. Surprised it took me that long to find these sort of problems

edit: I also didn't find this problem until after I left the faith

 

[Photonic]

I wasn't so lucky. I believed this till I went t uni. Surprised it took me that long to find these sort of problems

I was one of the lucky lads who was interested in physics.

Do you know how cool it is to realize that your physical makeup was forged in the hearts of stars billions of years ago in a cataclysmic explosion that the human imagination can't even begin to postulate?

 

[pwfaith]

If he knows everything you do absolutely before anything is ever done to create you, your future is set. You are created with the full knowledge you will go to hell.

We'll just have to agree to disagree You are created with a lifetime of God trying to reach you. Whether you go to heaven or hell is the individual's choice, not God's fault for allowing you to be born anyway.

 

[9Westy9]

And that is your freedom of choice God gave you

tempted to question this. I think I'll let it past so not to derail the thread anymore xD

 

[9Westy9]

I was one of the lucky lads who was interested in physics.

Do you know how cool it is to realize that your physical makeup was forged in the hearts of stars billions of years ago in a cataclysmic explosion that the human imagination can't even begin to postulate?

that sounds awesome . It would probably take me years until I understand it though