Children in Heaven

[PolyHedral]

Arguing a non-Biblical position as a Biblical one was the point.

But it is quite Biblical; it is derived logically from the Bible.

 

[Scott C.]

Good question. Also, do stillborn babies go to heaven? If so, then they'll never have experienced suffering yet still get eternal bliss -- why isn't it like that for all of us if so?

I believe that children who die before 8 years old go to heaven. This does raise the jealously issue. Why should I have to endure this life and they get off so easy? I don't know why God takes some children home so young with a very short mortal life. I see life as a gift and a blessing to live. There is no reason to expect anything other than heaven, if heaven is what we want and what we strive for. That's my take on it.

 

[Me Myself]

Why not even take a step further and question his very existance?

Also, I think you have some [common] misconceptions of God's faculties. In a sense you seem to have a deterministic view of God. God doesn't know what happens in the future because he can predict what will happen. Rather, if he did know the future that way, and He knew it because the initial conditions of the world, plus the laws of nature, guaranteed certain outcomes (the outcomes he foresees), then this would imply determinism. This isn't how we see things (at least catholics). No, we don't believe God's interaction with the world happens this way. He creates all things ex nihilo, and conserves and concurs with all creatures at all times.

In short, everything exists because God Wills it to be. Whatever the reason might be is not entirely made visible to us.

For example, it's likely my brother will go to hell. His sin's and sufferings have affected me tremendously. There is something to be said about that.

wait, it is the catholic view tha God knows all, including the future. Jesus didn´t tell Peter he might negate him thrice. He unequivocally told him. Are yuo iomplying he had a chance of mistake? o.0

The reality is simple. If you kill every human in baby form, you eliminate odds of them going to hell, and thus you saved an infinite amount of suffering from someone.

Very very simple.

 

[Quiddity]

wait, it is the catholic view tha God knows all, including the future. Jesus didn´t tell Peter he might negate him thrice. He unequivocally told him. Are yuo iomplying he had a chance of mistake? o.0

The reality is simple. If you kill every human in baby form, you eliminate odds of them going to hell, and thus you saved an infinite amount of suffering from someone.

Very very simple.

Nothing I said contradicts that. I'm not trying to be dense here but you simply don't understand. It doesn't matter though with regard to the topic at hand, so I won't push it.

Killing is wrong. No evil shall be committed even if good comes from it.

 

[9Westy9]

This is my belief My belief is that we are ALL deserving of hell. My belief is that no one is saved except through faith by the grace of God. Until one declares their faith in Christ ("Romans 10:9-10 "That you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.") they are not saved. Only those who are saved will receive the gift of eternal life. Those who do not, will receive eternal death. I believe we all are bound for eternal death until we declare our faith in Christ. While I do believe infants and children go to heaven prior to reaching the age of accountability, I do not believe they go due to their faith but only through God's grace and love as they have not had the opportunity to understand and experience God's love and forgiveness. So through His love, He imputes his grace on them.

So what happens to adult atheists? Do they all miss eternal salvation or only the 'bad' ones? Also what happens to apostates who leave the faith because they are convinced that it isn't true?

 

[9Westy9]

Hmmm, I still don't see how making the "rules" makes it your fault when someone breaks them. If the only being in the world who is completely good, completely just, completely trustworthy, completely holy, completely generous and self-less is unqualified to determine what will restore the broken relationship with Him and cleanse sin - who is qualified to make that determination? Sin cannot enter heaven. We are sinful. If we have sin in our life, we cannot enter heaven since sin cannot reside there. If not God, who decides what will remove that sin from our lives?

Completely good and completely just would mean that people miss out on salvation because they didn't try to follow the same path as God. It wouldn't mean that believers go to heaven whilst non-believers miss out.

 

[pwfaith]

If you make the rules, and you make the person knowing they will break those rules, isn't it your responsibility?

Hell was created for Satan and the demons. People were created. People were never intended to go to hell when they were created. People were created perfect and good. The consequence of hell was only created after man sinned.

Do you have kids? Should parents never have rules for their children b/c they know they will break them? Is it the parents fault when their child breaks the rules b/c they set the rules in the first place? Of course not. That's just absurd. That's like saying they shouldn't have had kids in the first place or made rules in the first place or ever disciplined them for breaking the rules b/c they had kids knowing they'd do something wrong at some point and made rules knowing that. Why do parents make rules? Why are there laws in our country?

It's NEVER the responsibility or fault of the boss, parent, gov. leaders, etc when an employee, child, person breaks the rules. The fault solely lies with the person who made the choice to do wrong instead of right. Period. It is they who deserve whatever penalty comes from their bad choice.

 

[pwfaith]

wait, it is the catholic view tha God knows all, including the future. Jesus didn´t tell Peter he might negate him thrice. He unequivocally told him. Are yuo iomplying he had a chance of mistake? o.0

The reality is simple. If you kill every human in baby form, you eliminate odds of them going to hell, and thus you saved an infinite amount of suffering from someone.

Very very simple.

If you kill every human in baby form, how will the world continue? Are you not removing their free will when you do that - free will to accept AND reject you? Why not just create robots?

 

[pwfaith]

So what happens to adult atheists? Do they all miss eternal salvation or only the 'bad' ones? Also what happens to apostates who leave the faith because they are convinced that it isn't true?

Anyone who accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior will be saved. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Romans 10:13 "For, everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
Anyone who rejects Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior will not be saved. Those who accept will live eternally with God. Those who reject Christ (atheist or otherwise - atheists are not the only ones who reject Christ, many religious people do as well) will live eternally separated from God.

God knows the heart of every man, woman and child. God knows if one has accepted or denied His gift of salvation in their heart. Each individual will be judged accordingly. It is not my job to judge the heart of each individual, it is only God's. I only know what will happen to those who do and those who don't. It is between the individual and God to know which applies to them personally.

As for apostates, I found this a while ago and thought it was interesting What is apostasy and how can I recognize it?
[/FONT]

 

[pwfaith]

Completely good and completely just would mean that people miss out on salvation because they didn't try to follow the same path as God. It wouldn't mean that believers go to heaven whilst non-believers miss out.

No it means they chose not to accept God's grace through faith in Jesus. There is no trying. You either accept Christ or you reject Him. Those who accept Christ will travel the narrow path, those who don't will follow the broad path.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14

Nobody "misses out". It's a choice every individual makes, an intentional choice. People only "miss out" if they chose to by rejecting Christ.

 

[Photonic]

I believe that children who die before 8 years old go to heaven. This does raise the jealously issue. Why should I have to endure this life and they get off so easy? I don't know why God takes some children home so young with a very short mortal life. I see life as a gift and a blessing to live. There is no reason to expect anything other than heaven, if heaven is what we want and what we strive for. That's my take on it.

So would not the greatest moral duty of parents be to kill their children to ensure they will be 100% heaven bound?

 

[theonlywiseone]

What will children talk about in heaven?

“Thus said Yah of hosts, again old men and old women shall dwell in the streets of Yershalayim each one with his staff in his hand because of great age, and the streets of the city shall be filled with BOYS and GIRLS playing in its streets. Thus said Yah of hosts, ‘If it is marvelous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days should it also be marvelous in My eyes?” Declares Yah of hosts: ZECHARIAH 8 V 4-6

 

[pwfaith]

So would not the greatest moral duty of parents be to kill their children to ensure they will be 100% heaven bound?

As I said originally, if that was the only goal and purpose there was to life or duty as a parent. It's not. So no. The greatest moral duty of parents biblically is to raise children who love the Lord their God with all their heart, mind and soul and love their neighbor as themselves. And in that process there is hope that the child will accept Christ as their Lord and Savior and live a life that honors Him. That is my greatest moral and spiritual duty as a Christian parent.

 

[Drolefille]

In another thread, someone asked what happens to innocent children that are killed. A few posters indicated that if a child hasn't reached the age of moral culpability yet that they would go to Heaven (or paradise, or whatever) to be with the Lord.

Something bugs me about this, though: isn't it therefore infinitely better to die very young than to live at all?

According to many doctrines, humans are sinful creatures that are prone to "mess up" and fail to attain heaven: in fact, according to many beliefs, many more are going to Hell than are going to Heaven. These are not good odds -- wouldn't it be many times better for as many humans as possible to die very young (and therefore be guaranteed Heaven) than to have ~80 years of life on Earth to possibly lose it all?

Wouldn't, therefore, the most selfless act possible to be killing all children before the age of moral culpability? Sure, those that do the killing lose eternity -- but they've gained eternity for so many countless humans that would probably have ended up in Hell anyway!

Right?

For a non-doctrinal take on things see Auspicious Eggs by James Morrow.

Once a year, a person gets to celebrate a birthday. For children, it’s the best day of the year. For most adults, it’s something to pretend to forget or to celebrate with a quiet dinner out. After all, a birthday only means another year tacked on to an already large number. But no matter how old you are, a birthday is special because it marks the most important instance in a person’s life: the moment of their birth.
In our next story, a birthday is hardly anything to celebrate. Life is as rainy and drear as the climate. The United States has been fragmented into a constellation of reefs and islands, the rest swallowed up by the rising oceans. And a new kind of church has mandated that the lives of those already born are less important than the lives of those who are as yet unconceived.
Here is a place overflowing with babies, packed with pregnant women, smothered by the stench of dripping diapers. It’s a world where a menopausal woman might be put to death and an infertile baby drowned, because those who can’t procreate are without value.

Found in Brave New Worlds (which is a good dystopian collection)
The full story appears to be available here, although it's of questionable legality...
Auspicious Eggs by James Morrow_free online reading books

 

[Photonic]

As I said originally, if that was the only goal and purpose there was to life or duty as a parent. It's not. So no. The greatest moral duty of parents biblically is to raise children who love the Lord their God with all their heart, mind and soul and love their neighbor as themselves. And in that process there is hope that the child will accept Christ as their Lord and Savior and live a life that honors Him. That is my greatest moral and spiritual duty as a Christian parent.

That does not follow.

If the child has a 100% guarantee of attaining heaven, allowing them to live to the point where that comes in to question would be the utmost cruelty.

 

[pwfaith]

That does not follow.

If the child has a 100% guarantee of attaining heaven, allowing them to live to the point where that comes in to question would be the utmost cruelty.

Where does free will come in then?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

So would not the greatest moral duty of parents be to kill their children to ensure they will be 100% heaven bound?

Yes, abortion is a great thing. It is a 100% guaranty that your child will go to heaven.

 

[idav]

Where does free will come in then?

I just wanted to put a couple cents for what its worth. One big issue is the fact that we are put into a world that will bound us to sin. There seems to be some ambiguity as to whether God wants us to even go on let alone bring another sinner into the world.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Where does free will come in then?

What free will? If your born in a muslim family the odds are very small you will become a Christian. Born in to a Christian family much better chance to receive Jesus as your personal savour. Some definitely have advantages.

 

[Me Myself]

If you kill every human in baby form, how will the world continue? Are you not removing their free will when you do that - free will to accept AND reject you? Why not just create robots?

God has accepted the dead of incontable babies. If free will was so invaluable, why did god alloed them to die without making a choice?

robots cannot feel emotions and won´t be blissful in paradise (but got nothing against robot servants ). Saving someone from a finite stupidity that would cost him INFINITE punishment is just the compassionate thing to do if you believe in such things.

Of course given that I believe God actually loves every one of his children, I know he would never have created a human that he knows would go to hell. If he knows he will go to hell if he creates him, why create him? He is not trashing anyone´s free will, becvause the person hasn´t existed yet.

So if God has a hell that is eternal, and knows who is going to sin, he could simply not create people that will go there, and only create those who he knows will take the smart choice all by themselves.

I mean if hell leaves up to it´s name, people are better off not existing that going there.