Children in Heaven

[idav]

But those consequences don't happen naturally, and they aren't immutable. God is responsible for them, and so he can rightly be blamed for any injustice they cause.

Thats why it's just easier to blame the devil, that or claim temporary insanity cause God did tell you to do it.

 

[pwfaith]

But those consequences don't happen naturally, and they aren't immutable. God is responsible for them, and so he can rightly be blamed for any injustice they cause.

I respectfully disagree. Hell was originally created for Satan and his demons. It only became a consequence for us when we sinned against God. God is responsible for creating them, for an alternative purpose originally, but we are responsible for where we end up. The choice is ours, not God's. If I get a ticket for speeding, is it the governments fault for creating the law to begin with or my fault for going a speed I should not have? The gov. made the law, it didn't make me break the law.

If I'm walking along the beach with my children and I tell them "don't get in the water or you will get wet, and you will have to remain in your wet clothes" If they go in the water and get wet, that's their fault, I warned them it would happen. Having to remain in their wet clothes may feel like a punishment if it is uncomfortable, but still it was their choice to reject my warning and go in the water. God has warned us - those who do not receive Jesus as Savior will die eternally. We've been warned.

I agree it's not a natural consequence, it's a spiritual one. I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility. The spirit lives on. God is a just God. Justice demands a consequence for ones actions, the spiritual realm is no different.

 

[PolyHedral]

I respectfully disagree. Hell was originally created for Satan and his demons. It only became a consequence for us when we sinned against God. God is responsible for creating them, for an alternative purpose originally, but we are responsible for where we end up.

No we aren't; we are responsible for what we do. God set up the mechanism to send us a particular place, and so he is responsible for that.

The choice is ours, not God's. If I get a ticket for speeding, is it the governments fault for creating the law to begin with or my fault for going a speed I should not have? The gov. made the law, it didn't make me break the law.

It is the "fault" of the government for creating the law, it is your "fault" to break it. These are inherently loaded words, and shouldn't be used to imply that all laws are just automatically. To make the example more applicable, it would definitely be the government's fault to arrest people because marijuana is banned, not their fault for smoking it.

If I'm walking along the beach with my children and I tell them "don't get in the water or you will get wet, and you will have to remain in your wet clothes" If they go in the water and get wet, that's their fault, I warned them it would happen. Having to remain in their wet clothes may feel like a punishment if it is uncomfortable, but still it was their choice to reject my warning and go in the water. God has warned us - those who do not receive Jesus as Savior will die eternally. We've been warned.

It's your fault for not altering the laws of thermodynamics.

Please keep your metaphors accurate.

 

[Photonic]

I respectfully disagree. Hell was originally created for Satan and his demons. It only became a consequence for us when we sinned against God. God is responsible for creating them, for an alternative purpose originally, but we are responsible for where we end up. The choice is ours, not God's. If I get a ticket for speeding, is it the governments fault for creating the law to begin with or my fault for going a speed I should not have? The gov. made the law, it didn't make me break the law.

If I'm walking along the beach with my children and I tell them "don't get in the water or you will get wet, and you will have to remain in your wet clothes" If they go in the water and get wet, that's their fault, I warned them it would happen. Having to remain in their wet clothes may feel like a punishment if it is uncomfortable, but still it was their choice to reject my warning and go in the water. God has warned us - those who do not receive Jesus as Savior will die eternally. We've been warned.

I agree it's not a natural consequence, it's a spiritual one. I'm a firm believer in personal responsibility. The spirit lives on. God is a just God. Justice demands a consequence for ones actions, the spiritual realm is no different.

Satan is actually from the Book of Job, and he was the accuser, not the devil. Goel was basically the defense attorney.

The only official scripture in the Bible is the Old Testament.

 

[Quiddity]

Maybe something is gained through living?

 

[Breathe]

<<snip>>

Indeed he did.
Jesus most likely spoke of hell as in a rubbish dump where things were destroyed in fire as opposed to something of eternal hell. How anyone cannot find eternal hell odd is confusing enough, so I think even Jesus would have disagreed with it.

Regarding Jesus' opinion... well, he's entitled to it, if that is what he taught and not an interpolation. I disagree with him, though.

Then again, I'm not a Christian and have no compulsion to, in the same way one who is not a Buddhist has no reason to accept Siddhartha Gautama's teachings, or how one who is not a Vai&#7779;&#7751;ava Hindu has no reason to accept K&#7771;&#7779;&#7751;a's teachings.

 

[Quiddity]

In another thread, someone asked what happens to innocent children that are killed. A few posters indicated that if a child hasn't reached the age of moral culpability yet that they would go to Heaven (or paradise, or whatever) to be with the Lord.

Something bugs me about this, though: isn't it therefore infinitely better to die very young than to live at all?

According to many doctrines, humans are sinful creatures that are prone to "mess up" and fail to attain heaven: in fact, according to many beliefs, many more are going to Hell than are going to Heaven. These are not good odds -- wouldn't it be many times better for as many humans as possible to die very young (and therefore be guaranteed Heaven) than to have ~80 years of life on Earth to possibly lose it all?

Wouldn't, therefore, the most selfless act possible to be killing all children before the age of moral culpability? Sure, those that do the killing lose eternity -- but they've gained eternity for so many countless humans that would probably have ended up in Hell anyway!

Right?

Sounds alot like pre-fall.

 

[Me Myself]

Maybe something is gained through living?

Let´s say you are a father, and you know that one of your childs is definetely going to hell if he grows up. There is nothing you can do about it, he WILL take all the wrong choices, and you being even better parent to him will only make his sins much bigger for having ignored your good advices and love anyways.

If he grows up, he will suffer eternally. If you kill him now, he will never make those wrong choices and he will have eternal bliss. Sure, you will be a murderer, hated by your wife and community. But you literaly ended infinite suffering and piad it up with a finite (even if horrible) suffering that is no conteast to the suffering in hell anyways.

What do you think you would do if you acted out of compassion and not self interest?

 

[9Westy9]

According to my studies, all the times Jesus talked about hell, he talked of it as a consequences. I saw this explanation online and thought it was great:

A consequence is the result of an action. The Bible tells us, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and "The soul that sins, it shall die" (Ezekiel 18:4). In this case, sinning against God is the action, the consequence of which is death and eternity in Hell (Revelation 20:15).

Now, there are two types of consequences: 1) natural, and 2) artificial (or imposed). A natural consequence is something that takes place as the result of natural law or physical conditions. For instance, if you jump off of a bridge, the consequence is that gravity pulls you down to the earth. By contrast, an imposed or artificial consequence is something that men ordain. For instance, the consequence of breaking the speed limit is a traffic citation.

Nature doesn't punish. The fact that gravity pulls you down to the earth is not nature's way of showing you that it's angry with you; it's simply due to the behavior of physical objects that are in close relation to one another. It's a consequence but not a punishment. On the other hand, the traffic citation is both: in that case, punishment is the consequence of violating the law.

Sinning against God carries punishment as its consequence, and so it is both.

The good news it that you don't have to face that punishment. Christ has already taken your sins upon Himself and paid the penalty for them. If you believe in Him, you can escape the penalty of (as well as the power of) sin, and so avoid the wrath of God.

​

Hell is the result (consequence) of not accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior. Heaven is the result (consequence) of receiving God's grace through faith in Jesus as Savior.

and God is still reffered to as just for this

 

[pwfaith]

No we aren't; we are responsible for what we do. God set up the mechanism to send us a particular place, and so he is responsible for that.

what "mechanism"?

 

[Tristesse]

what "mechanism"?

I think he means the rules by which souls are judged, according to the bible.

 

[pwfaith]

Hmmm, I still don't see how making the "rules" makes it your fault when someone breaks them. If the only being in the world who is completely good, completely just, completely trustworthy, completely holy, completely generous and self-less is unqualified to determine what will restore the broken relationship with Him and cleanse sin - who is qualified to make that determination? Sin cannot enter heaven. We are sinful. If we have sin in our life, we cannot enter heaven since sin cannot reside there. If not God, who decides what will remove that sin from our lives?

 

[Me Myself]

Hmmm, I still don't see how making the "rules" makes it your fault when someone breaks them. If the only being in the world who is completely good, completely just, completely trustworthy, completely holy, completely generous and self-less is unqualified to determine what will restore the broken relationship with Him and cleanse sin - who is qualified to make that determination? Sin cannot enter heaven. We are sinful. If we have sin in our life, we cannot enter heaven since sin cannot reside there. If not God, who decides what will remove that sin from our lives?

I think you are not really answering the main question here. For starters, I understand you stance isn´t even the one being judged here. You are of the stance (and you may correct me on any mistake I make) that most of people will eventually get to heaven, and the only way to go to hell is if you are 100% revelead the reality of the christian doctrine by the Holy Ghost and still are determined to go against it then you are going to hell. Being this has not happened to most of us, I would guess your premise says almost eveyrone goes to heaven.

Now, the premise at play here says that most bad people or people that simply didn´t accept christ are going to hell. I mean, let´s put a generous figure and say 10% of people. (and for what many christians says it would be far more)

IF (and it is an infinite If) this was the case then it would beter for any parent to kill his babies so he doesn´t risk that they may have eternal torment. If they die as babies they have eternal bliss. Nothing on earth can be compared to the awesomeness of heaven. Earth is nothing because it is limited and heaven is Ilimited. So if you kill a 1000 babies and only one of them was going to go to hell, you still prevented an amount of suffering that is infinitely superior to the suffering you caused.

Thus, making you more compassive.

 

[pwfaith]

I think you are not really answering the main question here. For starters, I understand you stance isn´t even the one being judged here. You are of the stance (and you may correct me on any mistake I make) that most of people will eventually get to heaven, and the only way to go to hell is if you are 100% revelead the reality of the christian doctrine by the Holy Ghost and still are determined to go against it then you are going to hell. Being this has not happened to most of us, I would guess your premise says almost eveyrone goes to heaven.

Now, the premise at play here says that most bad people or people that simply didn´t accept christ are going to hell. I mean, let´s put a generous figure and say 10% of people. (and for what many christians says it would be far more)

IF (and it is an infinite If) this was the case then it would beter for any parent to kill his babies so he doesn´t risk that they may have eternal torment. If they die as babies they have eternal bliss. Nothing on earth can be compared to the awesomeness of heaven. Earth is nothing because it is limited and heaven is Ilimited. So if you kill a 1000 babies and only one of them was going to go to hell, you still prevented an amount of suffering that is infinitely superior to the suffering you caused.

Thus, making you more compassive.

This is my belief My belief is that we are ALL deserving of hell. My belief is that no one is saved except through faith by the grace of God. Until one declares their faith in Christ ("Romans 10:9-10 "That you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.") they are not saved. Only those who are saved will receive the gift of eternal life. Those who do not, will receive eternal death. I believe we all are bound for eternal death until we declare our faith in Christ. While I do believe infants and children go to heaven prior to reaching the age of accountability, I do not believe they go due to their faith but only through God's grace and love as they have not had the opportunity to understand and experience God's love and forgiveness. So through His love, He imputes his grace on them.

As a parent, I am not all-knowing. I have no way of knowing what choice my children will ultimately make regarding their faith, nor do I know when they will reach the age of accountability. God gives us free will. As much as I want my children to be in heaven with me, I want the choice to be theirs, unless that choice is taken from them before they have a chance to make it.

I do get the point you are trying to make but committing a crime does not make it right, no matter how grand our intentions. Do not murder is one of the 10 Commandments. I have a strong feeling that although our intentions may be good and well, God would still be greatly displeased at the taking of the life (murder) of this precious gift He has given us - esp since Scripture says "Do not murder" and that "children are a gift from God".

 

[Me Myself]

As a parent, I am not all-knowing. I have no way of knowing what choice my children will ultimately make regarding their faith, nor do I know when they will reach the age of accountability. God gives us free will. As much as I want my children to be in heaven with me, I want the choice to be theirs, unless that choice is taken from them before they have a chance to make it.

Let´s say you do are all-knowing for a second. You become all knowing or have a revelation or We that your children is definetely going to hell if you allow him to grow up. Not only one child BTW, you have 3 babies and the 3 will go to hell. Furthermore, they will be horribel people and they will make other peole make bad choices,a nd ruin a lot of lives. A lot of people will be led to hell by them and their bad influences.

If you kill them then, then there is no guilt in them, and they are free to go to heaven. So what do you do?

I do get the point you are trying to make but committing a crime does not make it right, no matter how grand our intentions.

I am not talking about intentions but effects. The effect is that you just spared an infinite amount of suffering for a living being. You spared an infinite of misery, of cries, of hatred of pain of regret. Infinite. For a single limited action that won´t hurt even for a single minute the same much this being would´ve suffered eternaly.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I'm not sure what your point could be, to be honest. The Bible lays down premises of how the world works; anything logically derived from those premises is fair game, scriptural or not.

Arguing a non-Biblical position as a Biblical one was the point.

 

[pwfaith]

Let´s say you do are all-knowing for a second.

But I'm not, so what good is it to speculate about something that could never happen?

 

[pwfaith]

Let´s say you do are all-knowing for a second. You become all knowing or have a revelation or We that your children is definitely going to hell if you allow him to grow up. Not only one child BTW, you have 3 babies and the 3 will go to hell. Furthermore, they will be horrible people and they will make other people make bad choices, and ruin a lot of lives. A lot of people will be led to hell by them and their bad influences.

If you kill them then, then there is no guilt in them, and they are free to go to heaven. So what do you do?

I'm not one to believe "fate" is set like that. We have choices all through life. Why take away their choice, why not try to change their choices so they don't end up like that? What if in their bad choices good comes? Do we then remove all the good along with the bad? There are some brilliant people who have done horrible things. Since we're playing "what if's" - what if one of my children, horrible as you say, is also brilliant and comes up with a cure for cancer - what does killing them do to that cure and all the millions of lives that could be saved - some lives may still be ruined, bad choices still made but millions of lives saved. Is it still worth it then just so I can have them in heaven with me one day?

 

[Photonic]

Hmmm, I still don't see how making the "rules" makes it your fault when someone breaks them. If the only being in the world who is completely good, completely just, completely trustworthy, completely holy, completely generous and self-less is unqualified to determine what will restore the broken relationship with Him and cleanse sin - who is qualified to make that determination? Sin cannot enter heaven. We are sinful. If we have sin in our life, we cannot enter heaven since sin cannot reside there. If not God, who decides what will remove that sin from our lives?

If you make the rules, and you make the person knowing they will break those rules, isn't it your responsibility?

 

[Quiddity]

Let´s say you are a father, and you know that one of your childs is definetely going to hell if he grows up. There is nothing you can do about it, he WILL take all the wrong choices, and you being even better parent to him will only make his sins much bigger for having ignored your good advices and love anyways.

If he grows up, he will suffer eternally. If you kill him now, he will never make those wrong choices and he will have eternal bliss. Sure, you will be a murderer, hated by your wife and community. But you literaly ended infinite suffering and piad it up with a finite (even if horrible) suffering that is no conteast to the suffering in hell anyways.

What do you think you would do if you acted out of compassion and not self interest?

Why not even take a step further and question his very existance?

Also, I think you have some [common] misconceptions of God's faculties. In a sense you seem to have a deterministic view of God. God doesn't know what happens in the future because he can predict what will happen. Rather, if he did know the future that way, and He knew it because the initial conditions of the world, plus the laws of nature, guaranteed certain outcomes (the outcomes he foresees), then this would imply determinism. This isn't how we see things (at least catholics). No, we don't believe God's interaction with the world happens this way. He creates all things ex nihilo, and conserves and concurs with all creatures at all times.

In short, everything exists because God Wills it to be. Whatever the reason might be is not entirely made visible to us.

For example, it's likely my brother will go to hell. His sin's and sufferings have affected me tremendously. There is something to be said about that.