Chris Rock versus Will Smith

[Wildswanderer]

A mild joke by a host at an awards ceremony where such jokes are quite typical is verbal abuse?

I didn't say that.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So physical assault shouldn't be a crime? The system is "messed up" because we jail people when they physically assault people?

That would entirely depend on the situation.
And again you didn't hear what I actually said.

 

[Wildswanderer]

It's emotional instability that fosters such, in my opinion. One can't control themselves emotionally when someone is saying things to them, and likely also are not confident in their ability to muster a sufficient retort intellectually... so they lash out physically... the only real recourse they feel that they have. Don't have what it takes to play on equal footing? Pull out a weapon!

Sound about right @Wildswanderer?

Not even close.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Not even close.

And yet no reframing of the situation forthcoming. Interesting.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And yet no reframing of the situation forthcoming. Interesting.

I would be perfectly ok with physical force used to truly defend someone's honor. Apparently, in this situation there was no honor to defend, so that doesn't apply.
And as I said it was a sissy slap hardly worthy of being called violence. More like returning one insult for another.
It's Hollywood, we should not expect honor from them.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't say that.

You did.

"People should not be allowed to verbally abuse your loved ones. If you don't stand up for them, you should."

 

[SkepticThinker]

That would entirely depend on the situation.
And again you didn't hear what I actually said.

We're talking about a specific situation right now.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I would be perfectly ok with physical force used to truly defend someone's honor.

And what words do you believe threaten or literally affect a person's honor? Can you give some examples?

Apparently, in this situation there was no honor to defend, so that doesn't apply.

This is an entirely subjective assessment - opinion, in other words. This is essentially the problem with a "what-it-means-to-you" idea like "honor." If I feel it is damaging to my atheist friend's honor, can I stand up in a church that is denouncing atheists and "sissy slap" the pastor in the face? Is that acceptable, in your opinion? If not, then who gets to defend "honor" thusly and who doesn't? Who gets to decide?

And as I said it was a sissy slap hardly worthy of being called violence. More like returning one insult for another.

I, personally, would agree that Will Smith is something like what you call a "sissy." Not due to the strength of the slap, mind you... but due to the extremely weak control he has over his emotions. There's no strength there... and he needs to "work out" more in that area. Skin's too thin. His "duck's back" needs a new coat of water protection.

It's Hollywood, we should not expect honor from them.

And by this you mean that we shouldn't expect them to not speak poorly of atheists, right? Hopefully you get where I am going with that. If not, see paragraph 2 above.

 

[Revoltingest]

People should not be allowed to verbally abuse your loved ones. If you don't stand up for them, you should.
Putting someone is prison for such things is part of why our system is so messed up.

We teach children to use their words.
We require that adults use their words.

If one lacks the self control to endure
roasting at a ceremony where this is
expected, then one should stay away.

 

[VoidCat]

I would be perfectly ok with physical force used to truly defend someone's honor. Apparently, in this situation there was no honor to defend, so that doesn't apply.
And as I said it was a sissy slap hardly worthy of being called violence. More like returning one insult for another.
It's Hollywood, we should not expect honor from them.

you know its actually possible to kill someone by slapping them right?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Ricky Gervais, on The Office, years ago....

Two things:

- Gervais is another comedian from an era when the social landscape was markedly different. It says a lot that the "edgiest" comedians who are often embroiled in controversy for thoughtless or otherwise tasteless jokes nowadays are usually from a specific time period: Dave Chappelle, Ricky Gervais, Seth MacFarlane, and now Chris Rock, to name a few.

They're clearly influenced by a bygone era, and they're holding on to some of its norms in a time when their brand of humor is clearly facing more criticism and pushback for multiple reasons.

- The joke from the Office, while still tasteless and problematic (in my opinion), is different in that it didn't target a specific person at a global ceremony and make the audience laugh at a symptom of their illness on TV.

In any case, Will Smith's reaction was inappropriate, but I'm not going to say that Chris Rock was an innocent angel either.

 

[Debater Slayer]

A mild joke by a host at an awards ceremony where such jokes are quite typical is verbal abuse? Boy, some people are really easily offended. I think we'd all be doing ourselves a favour if we could laugh at ourselves a little more. Will Smith sure laughed when the joke was initially made.

Since the target of the joke clearly didn't take it well, I don't think it's for us to say that a joke about a symptom of her illness is "mild." That's a subjective assessment only she should be able to make, in my opinion, since what may seem mild to one person could be quite hurtful to another depending on the context and the respective experiences of each person.

I also don't think it's for us to decide for Jada Smith whether she should laugh at herself more. If she doesn't or can't for whatever reason, that's her business, and it shouldn't be hard for someone to respect that boundary when addressing her at a global, televised ceremony.

I agree Will's reaction was terrible, though, and I have little doubt he would have gotten a lot more support and also raised awareness about his wife's condition if he had objected to the joke in a professional manner during his acceptance speech or on social media. The idea that offensive jokes warrant a physical response is a potentially dangerous one that, when taken to the extreme, can result in support for things like terror attacks on cartoonists (e.g., in France and Denmark).

 

[David Young]

If there is never any justification for violence, Chris Rock's remarks have nothing to do with anything related to Will Smith's behaviour.

If Chris Rock's actions are somehow part of the discussion, then violence has justification under some circumstances. What those circumstances are is a matter of debate.

Is this a fair position to take?

 

[Revoltingest]

Two things:

- Gervais is another comedian from an era when the social landscape was markedly different. It says a lot that the "edgiest" comedians who are often embroiled in controversy for thoughtless or otherwise tasteless jokes nowadays are usually from a specific time period: Dave Chappelle, Ricky Gervais, Seth MacFarlane, and now Chris Rock, to name a few.

They're clearly influenced by a bygone era, and they're holding on to some of its norms in a time when their brand of humor is clearly facing more criticism and pushback for multiple reasons.

- The joke from the Office, while still tasteless and problematic (in my opinion), is different in that it didn't target a specific person at a global ceremony and make the audience laugh at a symptom of their illness on TV.

In any case, Will Smith's reaction was inappropriate, but I'm not going to say that Chris Rock was an innocent angel either.

I don't think their era is even close to being over.
But the new "prudery" will oppose them.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't think their era is even close to being over.
But the new "prudery" will oppose them.

By their era, I primarily meant the time in which they started their careers. It's certainly not over, but society is quite different now, including in its reception of their type of humor.

I don't see that as "prudery"; I see it as positive social evolution. Comedy will do fine but be different from how it was in previous decades.

 

[Revoltingest]

By their era, I primarily meant the time in which they started their careers. It's certainly not over, but society is quite different now, including in its reception of their type of humor.

I don't see that as "prudery"; I see it as positive social evolution. Comedy will do fine but be different from how it was in previous decades.

I know that "prudery" is a limited term.
But I picked it because "PC" is so over-used.
We shall see how comedy evolves.

BTW, Chris Rock's latest tour appears to
have increased demand after the slap.
This suggests approval of his comic style.
Chris Rock Greeted With Standing Ovation At First Show After Oscars Slap – Deadline

 

[fantome profane]

First there is absolutely no excuse for physically assaulting a comedian for something they said on stage. I don’t care what was said, Will Smith had no right to slap him.

Will Smith was not being brave or “manly”. It was a cowardly and immature act. Last I heard Chris Rock is considering whether or not he will press charges, that is his choice. But regardless, what Will Smith did was a crime.



Now as a separate issue, the joke was terrible. On a superficial level, it just wasn’t funny. “G.I. Jane”? Really?

1997 called. They said this joke wasn’t even funny then. It is a stupid and lazy joke, nothing clever about it.

And whether Chris Rock knew about Jada Smith’s condition he still should have known not to make fun of a black woman’s hair. Black women face constant ridiculous discrimination based on their hair and Chris Rock knows this. This is a sensitive personal issue, and Chris Rock of all people should have known better.

But Jada Pinkett Smith is perfectly capable of defending herself against a bad ignorant joke from Chris Rock. She could have taken to the media, social or regular, and just destroyed Chis Rock (metaphorically obviously) and at the same time educating the public.



Will Smith was not defending his wife. She didn’t need his defence. He just made a mess out of things. Again, there was absolutely no excuse for physically assaulting someone like this.

 

[pearl]

I almost always use this quote when this issue comes up, but I agree with Terry Pratchett: "Satire is meant to ridicule power. If you are laughing at people who are hurting, it's not satire, it's bullying." Satire is its own beast, but the sentiment is the same. Comedy that purposely hurts is no better than bullying.

I agree. The context is important. If the setting was the usual audience for a stand-up routine, that's one thing, or maybe the typical 'roast', where the insults are expected. This was neither and I can only think that Chris Rock was not aware of Will's wife's affliction. Otherwise it is no more than bullying for a cheap laugh.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

C'mon folks, surely you are all not so dumbed down by the 'box' that you were not aware that everything was staged. These guys are actors, it was a Hollywood event and the cameras were running and the Oscars attracted untold millions of dumbed down souls. It was a publicity stunt that they knew would make this years Oscar's successful. Step back and look at yourselves, you have greater potential than this, wasting time on an obviously staged event!

 

[Wildswanderer]

you know its actually possible to kill someone by slapping them right?

Lol, not from that slap.