Christian: Arminianism vs. Calvinism

[Scuba Pete]

no, i think Luther wanted people to subscribe to his branch of thinking, he was very adament over the issue of the Euchrist with Zwengli.... evidence that Luther had his view, and he wanted people to agree with it and follow it.

No, I am not saying that he would not want people to agree with his view point, but that he would not want them to be called "Lutherans". It has always been my impression that he was adamantly opposed to this kind of thing.

you are right, i see no need to describe myself as anything but "christian", but there are church leaders who make the distinction, and they must have had a reason for doing so.

I often wonder in amazement at what those reasons could possibly be to go against the scriptures like that!

 

[Mike182]

No, I am not saying that he would not want people to agree with his view point, but that he would not want them to be called "Lutherans".

It has always been my impression that he was adamantly opposed to this kind of thing. I often wonder in amazement at what those reasons could possibly be to go against the scriptures like that!

i guess they would say they are the true christians, and the other branches are the deviant ones....

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

primarily, the idea that we are saved by grace alone - i think that faith is only meaningful if it affects our actions and perceptions in our life, and to say we are saved by grace alone and not by our actions makes no impact on our actions or perceptions, ergo i feel that holding that belief makes faith meaningless.

For what it's worth, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace alone--but this does not mean that salvation/sanctification is without meritorious works on our part. However, the ability and will we have to perform righteous deeds is given by God, and indeed God works through us for such works (see Philippians 2:12-13)...Thus, even when works have merit, salvation is still by grace alone.

FGS

 

[Katzpur]

Calvinism is typically outlined by the five-point acronym TULIP :

- Total Depravity: man is naturally sinful and both cannot and will not seek God or save himself on his own
- Unconditional Election: God's election of believers is not based on foreseen merits or human choice, but is purely God's own decision.
- Limited Atonement: Christ sacrifice is sufficient to atone only for the sins of the elect, not all of humanity.
- Irresistible Grace: God's grace is irresistible, i.e. if a person is chosen as elect by God, the person cannot ultimately resist God's choice and will turn to God and be saved.
- Perseverance of the Saints: Salvation cannot be lost.

Wow! I don't buy into any of that. To me, every one of those statements is false, false, false!!!

There is no nifty acronym to help define Arminianism, but I found this outline on Wikipedia:

"Arminianism holds to the following tenets:

• Men are naturally unable to make any effort towards salvation
• Salvation is possible by grace alone
• Works of human effort are not cause or contribution to salvation
• God's election is conditional on faith in Jesus
• Jesus' atonement was potentially for all people
• God allows his grace to be resisted by those unwilling to believe
• Salvation can be lost, as continued salvation is conditional upon continued faith"

These don't really describe my beliefs, either, but they come a lot closer than Calvinism.

 

[joeboonda]

TULIP is actually also from something called Hyper-Calvinism, which I do not believe in, nor am I Arminian. Its late, but, I would like to read and post here as time permits, but for now...

I think nowadays when people say are you calvinist or arminian in your belief, they mostly are asking if you believe you can lose your salvation. If you google 'Can a Christian lose their salvation', you will find many good, in-depth answers to both questions, a good study, imo. Here is a link I found that posted MANY scriptures for both sides, and pros and cons, etc. I found it very interesting and useful, and I hope you all do to: Here it is: http://www.epm.org/articles/security.html

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

TULIP is actually also from something called Hyper-Calvinism, which I do not believe in, nor am I Arminian. Its late, but, I would like to read and post here as time permits, but for now...

Actually, it's not really "hyper" at all. As Mike already pointed out, it is what Calvin actually taught. However, the system has changed over time and thus many who consider themselves Calvinists do not agree fully with all five points of TULIP.

I think nowadays when people say are you calvinist or arminian in your belief, they mostly are asking if you believe you can lose your salvation.

In my experience another huge difference is the view of election, whether it is based purely on God's will in eternity past or whether it is conditional upon man's free choice or foreseen merits of men known by God in eternity past.

 

[joeboonda]

Here is a good booklet about Hyper-Calvinism and talks about it and Calvinism and Arminianism, an excellent read, at least, IMO: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Books/Dr%20John%20Rice/hypercalvinism.htm

 

[joeboonda]

Just How do we get saved anyway? Understanding this is important to understanding eternal security. Rice has a good booklet on eternal security, haven't found it on the net, in its full form, though, but this booklet, "What must I do to be saved", is very good reading, imo: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Books,%20Tracts%20&%20Preaching/Printed%20Sermons/Dr%20John%20Rice/what_must_i_do.htm

 

[joeboonda]

Actually, it's not really "hyper" at all. As Mike already pointed out, it is what Calvin actually taught. However, the system has changed over time and thus many who consider themselves Calvinists do not agree fully with all five points of TULIP.

In my experience another huge difference is the view of election, whether it is based purely on God's will in eternity past or whether it is conditional upon man's free choice or foreseen merits of men known by God in eternity past.

Right, Calvin did not have it all right nor did Arminius, so we have to go to the Bible, and wade through it all ourselves. The election thing is mentioned in the booklet I mentioned on 'hyper-calvinism', and just to simplify it, the Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish, that WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. So, salvation is offered to all men, that is why it is important, whatever we believe about 'election', to go out and preach the gospel so men may be saved. The idea of a limited atonement is an easy way for men to say, ah, if God wants them saved, if they are 'among the elect', they will get saved, and lay back and not go tell them how. God does know who will accept Christ and who will not, and those who do are elect. The booklet explains it very well, I think.

 

[Katzpur]

Right, Calvin did not have it all right nor did Arminius, so we have to go to the Bible, and wade through it all ourselves.

And if you and I both do that, we may very well come to entirely different conclusions as to what the truth is.

 

[joeboonda]

And if you and I both do that, we may very well come to entirely different conclusions as to what the truth is.

That is very true, I have been browsing the web, and there are LOTS of sites who argue fervently for and against eternal security. It is something I and my best friends at work discuss, as some believe in it and some do not. I understand how folks believe a person can turn away from the faith, become 'apostate', or 'live in sin and unreptentance', etc. and lose their salvation. We are still brothers and sisters in Christ although we don't agree on everything. Personally, unless I get some brain disease, I'm sticking with Jesus, eh? Although, personally I do believe in the doctrine of Eternal Security, or Assurance of Salvation, but that is from a long long struggle I had many years ago, and although I enjoy discussing the differences, it is one of those things that I firmly believe in, but that doesn't mean everyone has to.

 

[joeboonda]

Okay, Here it is, one of the BEST, simplest, Gospel presentations I have ever found, especially the pages of what repentance is, assurance, and security, this is THE GOSPEL! (argh, pictures to small, but oh, well)

http://www.creationism.org/gospel/english/index.htm

 

[Katzpur]

Okay, Here it is, one of the BEST, simplest, Gospel presentations I have ever found, especially the pages of what repentance is, assurance, and security, this is THE GOSPEL! (argh, pictures to small, but oh, well)

http://www.creationism.org/gospel/english/index.htm

I thought the site was fairly good until I got to this part:

REPENTANCE
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]REPENTANCE IS PROBABLY THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]What Saving Repentance Is Not:[/SIZE][/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not being sorry for your sins.[/SIZE][/FONT]
2. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not turning from your sins or reforming your life[/SIZE][/FONT]
3. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not the willingness to turn your life over to God so that He can direct your path.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. [/SIZE][/FONT]

When I read that, I stopped reading. How in the world can anyone believe that a repentent person does not feel remorse for his sins or try to do better in the future? Seriously, does anyone besides joeboonda actually buy into this?

 

[sojourner]

I'd have to say "leaning more toward Armenism." I believe that Christ came to save us all, and has saved us all. I believe that God intends for all to be saved. While we may resist salvation while we are here, once we are faced with the "ultimate reality" that is God, and experience the perfect oneness and love of God, we will no longer resist. God will patiently wait for us to wear ourselves down, like unruly colts.

 

[Scuba Pete]

After reading this thread, I am still leaning towards Christianity.

 

[sojourner]

I thought the site was fairly good until I got to this part:

REPENTANCE
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]REPENTANCE IS PROBABLY THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]What Saving Repentance Is Not:[/SIZE][/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not being sorry for your sins.[/SIZE][/FONT]
2. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not turning from your sins or reforming your life[/SIZE][/FONT]
3. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not the willingness to turn your life over to God so that He can direct your path.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. [/SIZE][/FONT]

When I read that, I stopped reading. How in the world can anyone believe that a repentent person does not feel remorse for his sins or try to do better in the future? Seriously, does anyone besides joeboonda actually buy into this?

For me, repentence is not an antecendent to salvation, but a consequent of having been saved. "Now that I know God loves me, that changes my perspective of myself and how I relate to the world." Grace fundamentally changes who we are and how we relate to the world.

 

[joeboonda]

I thought the site was fairly good until I got to this part:

REPENTANCE
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]REPENTANCE IS PROBABLY THE MOST MISUNDERSTOOD WORD IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]What Saving Repentance Is Not:[/SIZE][/FONT]

1. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not being sorry for your sins.[/SIZE][/FONT]
2. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not turning from your sins or reforming your life[/SIZE][/FONT]
3. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is not the willingness to turn your life over to God so that He can direct your path.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. [/SIZE][/FONT]

When I read that, I stopped reading. How in the world can anyone believe that a repentent person does not feel remorse for his sins or try to do better in the future? Seriously, does anyone besides joeboonda actually buy into this?

Sounds absolutely shocking, eh? All, I can say, is you stopped too soon, before the actual definition was given:
(and yes I believe in another type of repentance in which we have remorse for our sins, that does not necessarily lead to salvation, like a man may repent of drinking, smoking, or gambling, but not accept Christ, he is still lost...and we turn from sin when we get saved,as a result of understanding what it means to be freely and undeservedly saved) But read:







Saving repentance has absolutely nothing to do with regretting your sins or resolving to turn from them. God is willing to save your just the way you are. The Bible says:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. [/SIZE][SIZE=-2]Romans 5:8[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]What Saving Repentance Is:[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving repentance is rejecting religion, religious rituals, or obedience to God's law to gain eternal life.[/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The word "repent" comes from a Greek word which means "to change one's mind." Those who believe that eternal life can be earned through good works are commanded in Scripture to change their mind or "repent." They are told to stop trusting in their works, and come to God on the basis of grace through faith alone.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In Matthew 3:7-9 some religious men believed that they were going to heaven because they were descendants of Abraham, the father of the Jewish people. God Himself had chosen the Jewish race and established their religion. These men believed that because they were of the right religion they would go to heaven. John the Baptist told them that they must repent. That is, they must stop trusting in their religion to get them to heaven.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Luke 13:1-5 tells of some religious men who believed that God's judgment fell only on the worst sinners. By this reasoning, they believed that they would enter heaven on their own righteousness since they had obeyed the Ten Commandments better than most men. Jesus told them that if they continued to trust in their own righteousness to save them they would perish in hell. Jesus told them that they must repent -- that is, they must stop hoping to earn eternal life through their own righteousness, and trust in Jesus alone for their salvation.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]In Hebrews 9:9-14 the Bible calls sacraments or religious rituals through which men try to reach God "dead works." A few chapters earlier, the same author tells us in Hebrews 6:1 that the "foundation" of the Christian faith is "repentance from dead works and faith towards God." That is to say, one must stop trusting in "dead works" (i.e. religious rituals, sacraments, etc.) before he can exercise a genuine saving faith in God.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]The Biblical command is clear. If a man believes that his religion will get him to heaven, he must repent. (Matthew 3:7-9). If he believes that obeying the law of God is necessary to get to heaven, he must repent. (Luke 13:1-5) And if he believes that he must perform some religious ritual or sacrament to be saved, he must repent, and stop trusting in any of those things to save him. (Hebrews 6:1) Like the one attempting to buy grace, he must put his "money" back in his pocket and accept eternal life as a free gift![/SIZE][/FONT]


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Faith in Jesus will not save you if, while believing that Jesus died for your sins, you also believe that you must be baptized, go to church, or obey the Ten Commandments to "help" get you to heaven. You cannot simply add Christ to a long list of other things that you must do or be to get to heaven. You must utterly reject all of those other things as having no saving value whatsoever and trust in Christ alone.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=+1]SAVING REPENTANCE[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]IF FAITH IS THE HAND THAT ACCEPTS SALVATION THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, REPENTANCE IS THE HAND THAT REJECTS SALVATION BY ANY OTHER MEANS.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Saving faith does not simply affirm that Jesus' death is "necessary," it must affirm that His death is enough! That it is sufficient all by itself to pay for your sins apart from any human effort or good work, and that it is a free gift available only through faith and apart from any human effort or good work. (see Galatians 2:21; 3:10-14; 5:1-5)[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Recall the questions you were asked in the beginning? What was your answer to "Why God should let you into heaven? If you said you must be baptized, live a good life, or anything else other than simply trusting Christ, you must repent. You must stop trusting in any religious things you have done in the past or might do in the future, and trust in Christ alone.[/SIZE][/FONT]


Joeboonda says:
Salvation is a free gift, accepted freely, undeserved, by faith. Repent really, simply means to change your mind, thats it. Once saved, we obey the Lord because we are saved, and get baptised, attend church, read the Bible, witness, pray, worship, learn how to win over our sins and weaknesses, etc. etc. Because we are new creations, indwelt by the power of God.

 

[joeboonda]

For me, repentence is not an antecendent to salvation, but a consequent of having been saved. "Now that I know God loves me, that changes my perspective of myself and how I relate to the world." Grace fundamentally changes who we are and how we relate to the world.

I agree, in the sense that the moment we see we are completely lost, hopeless, helpless, and powerless to save ouselves, and see that God loves us so much He sent His Son to pay for our sins, freely, the natural response is to turn from one, our ways of 'earning' salvation, and to turn from our sins which we see for what they really are and have power over them if we exercise our faith in what and who the Bible says we now are and who now empowers us.

 

[joeboonda]

I'd have to say "leaning more toward Armenism." I believe that Christ came to save us all, and has saved us all. I believe that God intends for all to be saved. While we may resist salvation while we are here, once we are faced with the "ultimate reality" that is God, and experience the perfect oneness and love of God, we will no longer resist. God will patiently wait for us to wear ourselves down, like unruly colts.

Actually, I don't think Arminianism teaches that, it teaches that those who do 'resist salvation while here' as you said, or those who had salvation, could do something to lose it, and will be lost. Your view sounds nice and good, but both Calvin and Arminius believed if one heard and rejected the Gospel here, they are lost, with no hope after the grave of 'getting right with God'.
Their main difference (and I have agreements and differences with both) is that Calvin felt once saved, God keeps us, He is faithful, He seals, adopts, regenerates, indwells, makes us new creatures, etc, and that it cannot be 'undone', whereas Arminius believes it can be undone and a saved person can become unsaved, I guess they were just 'maybe'd' or possessed 'temporarily eternal life, if', or they 'had passed from death to life, but could pass back over, although we 'shall not come back into condemnation', we can....that 'nothing is greater than God, and nothing can pluck us out of His hand, except, oh, yeah, we are greater than God ?!? and can pluck ourselves out of His hand.
And, um, well, 'nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, not height nor depth...nor any other creature..." that is, not the highest thing in Heaven, or lowest thing in Hell, and if i didn't mention it, if there be any other creature, NOTHING can separate us from the Love of Christ......Oh, except us......whatever, I ramble, lol !

Verses I was 'playing' with, lol:

5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(King James Bible, John)
10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(King James Bible, Romans)

 

[Katzpur]

Joeboonda,

Whatever... We'll never see eye to eye on this. There is probably no point in even trying.

Katzpur