Christian: Arminianism vs. Calvinism

[Katzpur]

For me, repentence is not an antecendent to salvation, but a consequent of having been saved. "Now that I know God loves me, that changes my perspective of myself and how I relate to the world." Grace fundamentally changes who we are and how we relate to the world.

Well, that's an interesting perspective, particularly coming from someone who believes that every person who has ever lived will ultimately be saved. So just when do you see repentence having kicked in in the case of Adolf Hitler? Has Omasa bin Laden been saved yet or is this moment still to come? Just when will these diabolical creatures repent if they died without being "saved"?

 

[joeboonda]

Joeboonda,

Whatever... We'll never see eye to eye on this. There is probably no point in even trying.

Katzpur

We can always try, okay? We may be closer to many beliefs than you think. We believe God loves us and Jesus died for us, and to do right and lots of stuff...Did you read my reply above? Just wondered. God bless you, and sorry for my posts a few weeks ago, concerning the LDS stuff. Let me know if I ever do anything like that again, I am really sorry for posting all those articles, it was insensitive and wrong of me. :sorry1:

 

[joeboonda]

Well, that's an interesting perspective, particularly coming from someone who believes that every person who has ever lived will ultimately be saved. So just when do you see repentence having kicked in in the case of Adolf Hitler? Has Omasa bin Laden been saved yet or is this moment still to come? Just when will these diabolical creatures repent if they died without being "saved"?

HI. I thought you believed people who were that evil here could get a chance to be eventually saved after this life? I don't believe the wicked can, but I believe many people who never heard of Jesus who were righteous, that is they realized there was a creator from the creation and their conscience and God's laws written in their heart, all that Romans 2 stuff, that they the best they know ask God to forgive them and live right, will be introduced to Jesus and accept or be accepted by Him. Like Job, and the OT saints looked toward the cross, we look back on it, etc. I don't believe the unrighteous, like Hitler and such will be saved, or those who reject Christ (unpardonable sin, I guess), will be saved later, though. Lol, way wrong thread.

 

[kai]

After reading this thread, I am still leaning towards Christianity.

after reading this thread i am still leaning towards Confusion

 

[joeboonda]

after reading this thread i am still leaning towards Confusion

Nothing wrong with that, we have a cup of the ocean, trying to understand the ocean, lol...

 

[sojourner]

Well, that's an interesting perspective, particularly coming from someone who believes that every person who has ever lived will ultimately be saved. So just when do you see repentence having kicked in in the case of Adolf Hitler? Has Omasa bin Laden been saved yet or is this moment still to come? Just when will these diabolical creatures repent if they died without being "saved"?

Why is death the defining factor of our lives? Didn't Christ show us that he has power over death, that death no longer holds us captive to ourselves, that grace is more powerful than sin, that death no longer holds meaning for us? Does the Bible not tell us that God will search for us until God finds us, and that God is infinitely patient?

Maybe Hitler didn't repent during his corporeal life. But I believe God will save him. I believe God will save bin Laden. Hope always abides. And faith. And love. To believe that God gives up on us is to give up hope and to lack faith... (and is to admit that God is not love).

 

[Scuba Pete]

Interesting...

So there's really no benefit in being a Christian? I can now go and party with impunity. Wooo Hoooo!

 

[sojourner]

Interesting...

So there's really no benefit in being a Christian? I can now go and party with impunity. Wooo Hoooo!

So, the only benefit of being a Christian is getting a pass into heaven? There are no benefits at all to our earthly life, such as hope, such as being included in a community of love and support, such as being equipped for ministry, such as being reconciled to God, such as having our being transformed, such as the unity of the faith? There are no benefits, such as the privilege of living our life as a reflection of the Creator, such as engaging in worship of God? Such as learning to live into our true nature?

Knowing yourself to be a child of God, do you really want to spend your energy and time in worthless dissipation???

Just asking.

 

[joeboonda]

Thots after reading the 2 above posts:

The scripture says that it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement, that today is the day of salvation. Jesus said let the wheat grow with the tares (weeds), and in the end the tares or goats or wicked will go to everlasting punishment and the righeous to life eternal. Scripture, as understood by the greatest theologians and everyone I have known in the churh, indicates clearly that we live this life, and are judged for THIS life, no chance of redemption, salvation, forgiveness, beyond the grave. It is a great trick of Satan to lure people into not taking care of their salvation now, thinking they can do it 'later', in the next life or whatnot. It is not the Bible. God wants all to be saved, but He provided the way, and that is by accepting the free gift by faith of Christ's death to pay for our sins and his righteousness given to us in place of our own.

Why would a Christian want to go party? Well, God is not against a good time, He does not want us to fall into sin or addiction and all, but celebrating life and accomplishments and enjoying our friends and a glass of wine, dancing with your wife or girlfriend, enjoying things in this world, (not loving), He is not against. But even at that, why do Christians do wrong, become addicted to things, etc.? Because we still have a sin nature, and will not be completely perfect until we get our new transformed body. We are justified, we are sanctified, but we are also being sanctified, growing in grace daily. We know what happens when we as Christians sin, it brings bad consequences, direcet results from each particular sin, loss of fellowship (not relationship) with God, misery, guilt, inability to produce fruit, grief of the Holy Spirit, and loss of reward in Heaven. And as Paul told the Corinthians, it was why many were sick and had died, and that many would be saved, as its free, but would suffer loss, 'saved yet as by fire', and many will weep and mourn deeply for the treasures and rewards, even positions in the kingdom, (at least the millenial), that they forfeited because of lack of obedience. ..

 

[sojourner]

Thots after reading the 2 above posts:

The scripture says that it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement, that today is the day of salvation. Jesus said let the wheat grow with the tares (weeds), and in the end the tares or goats or wicked will go to everlasting punishment and the righeous to life eternal. Scripture, as understood by the greatest theologians and everyone I have known in the churh, indicates clearly that we live this life, and are judged for THIS life, no chance of redemption, salvation, forgiveness, beyond the grave. It is a great trick of Satan to lure people into not taking care of their salvation now, thinking they can do it 'later', in the next life or whatnot. It is not the Bible. God wants all to be saved, but He provided the way, and that is by accepting the free gift by faith of Christ's death to pay for our sins and his righteousness given to us in place of our own.

Why would a Christian want to go party? Well, God is not against a good time, He does not want us to fall into sin or addiction and all, but celebrating life and accomplishments and enjoying our friends and a glass of wine, dancing with your wife or girlfriend, enjoying things in this world, (not loving), He is not against. But even at that, why do Christians do wrong, become addicted to things, etc.? Because we still have a sin nature, and will not be completely perfect until we get our new transformed body. We are justified, we are sanctified, but we are also being sanctified, growing in grace daily. We know what happens when we as Christians sin, it brings bad consequences, direcet results from each particular sin, loss of fellowship (not relationship) with God, misery, guilt, inability to produce fruit, grief of the Holy Spirit, and loss of reward in Heaven. And as Paul told the Corinthians, it was why many were sick and had died, and that many would be saved, as its free, but would suffer loss, 'saved yet as by fire', and many will weep and mourn deeply for the treasures and rewards, even positions in the kingdom, (at least the millenial), that they forfeited because of lack of obedience. ..

So...God doesn't always get what God wants, in the end? The Biblical interpretation of God's relationship with humanity would refute that. God will not search for us until God find us? That also flies in the face of the Biblical portrayal of God.

I thought salvation could not be attained by what we do. Salvation is an act purely of God.

I didn't say "celebrate." I said "dissipation." Completely different meaning.

 

[joeboonda]

So...God doesn't always get what God wants, in the end? The Biblical interpretation of God's relationship with humanity would refute that. God will not search for us until God find us? That also flies in the face of the Biblical portrayal of God.

I thought salvation could not be attained by what we do. Salvation is an act purely of God.

I didn't say "celebrate." I said "dissipation." Completely different meaning.

Although God wishes for all men to be saved, He gave man free will to accept the free gift or reject it. Just like He does not wish for murder, rape, etc., He still gave man free will, although there will be justice as He is just.

Salvation is a free gift from God, and He told us in the gospel that we receive this gift by trusting in, believing in Jesus, that He died, was buried, and rose again, His blood having paid for all our sins. It is not a 'work' we do, but the Bible says we must believe in, place our trust in Jesus. I can give someone a gift, but they must accept it. They can say no thanks, or I don't believe its a gift, or I have my own way, or I don't believe the good news, etc. and reject the free gift. Paul and Silas told the jailor when he asked what he must do to be saved, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and they shall be saved. We have to accept the gift, that is what the Bible teaches.

 

[sojourner]

Although God wishes for all men to be saved, He gave man free will to accept the free gift or reject it. Just like He does not wish for murder, rape, etc., He still gave man free will, although there will be justice as He is just.

Salvation is a free gift from God, and He told us in the gospel that we receive this gift by trusting in, believing in Jesus, that He died, was buried, and rose again, His blood having paid for all our sins. It is not a 'work' we do, but the Bible says we must believe in, place our trust in Jesus. I can give someone a gift, but they must accept it. They can say no thanks, or I don't believe its a gift, or I have my own way, or I don't believe the good news, etc. and reject the free gift. Paul and Silas told the jailor when he asked what he must do to be saved, to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and they shall be saved. We have to accept the gift, that is what the Bible teaches.

For me, the compelling Biblical images are the ones Jesus painted of the kingdom of God being like a woman who looked for her lost coin until she found it; also the one of God being the shepherd, who searches for the one lost sheep until he finds it. There is no proviso or time limitation given. God searches for us until God finds us.
I believe God's persistence in searching us out is more steadfast than is our willpower to reject the gift we have already been given. God will, at some point, get God's way.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Arminianism and Calvinism are both wrong. They're both so wrong that either one is hardly recognizable as Christianity.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Maybe that's why you are at RF?

Actually, that is precisely why I am at RF. I have a distorted image of myself. I always have and I suspect you do to. It's people like you and especially my critics who give me a real look at my heart. They hold my feet to the fire and make SURE that I change for the better. I really appreciate that.

 

[uu_sage]

Neither. I am a unapologetic Universalist. I was raised in both the Calvinist and Arminian traditions and both systems are problematic. Calvinism claims that God can save all people yet is not willing. Arminianism claims that God should be able to save all people but is not able. Both systems undermine God's power, love and grace and turns God from a loving parent into a wimp (under Arminianism into a wimp or an absuive tyrant under Calvinism). Arminianism makes humans more powerful than God.

 

[Lucian]

Yeah, definitely neither. uu_sage summed it up well.

 

[ukMethodist]

Arminian

 

[ukMethodist]

Arminianism claims that God should be able to save all people but is not able.

That's a common mistake made with Arminianism. God is able to, he just loves us too much to force us into something we do not choose. God is love after all.

 

[J Bryson]

I must admit to some disappointment that the Arian take isn't even being considered here.

 

[SoliDeoGloria]

As a "calvinist" or adherer to "reformed thinking" i would suggest reading "Chosen by God" by R.C. Sproul for a good current understanding of "calvinism". I've recently found the notion of "free will" to be one based on human pride and have no real basis in sound Biblical and Philosophical teaching.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria