Christian: Crazy doctrine

[emiliano]

Hmmm...ok...the thing is...that the bible says that it is appointed for a man do die once and then be judged. So lets say i die today...then i need to be judged, but then when im resurrected, i would live again, and then have lived twice before i am judged.

If we die and go to jesus, then we already have bodies that we can happily use to be with jesus, and would not need to be resurrected to get another body again.

It doesnt make sense that if a christian dies they hang around 'somewhere' and or get to 'sleep' while the rest of the christians have to bear the brunt of persecution on this earth. The bible says that if you endure to the end you will be saved (not talking about salvation on the cross), but rather saved from out of the world, when it is destroyed. Now is someone dies and lazes about in paradise, heaven or floating around somewhere here on earth, they would not be working in the kingdom.

What are we suppose to do? Work in the kingdom right? So if we have to work in the kingdom, then we ALL have to work in the kingdom. Would god let some work and not others. I tend not to think so.

If we die, our bodies, like a seed is sown into the ground, or wherever it goes, but any seed that is planted in the ground grows again. If we die, this body is sown into the ground, and we spring up somewhere else. To do what? To work in the kingdom. The bible says that we are children of the DAY. So as long as it is day, we have to work, because when night comes nobody can work.

When does night come? When this world is plunged into darkness. That happens at the end!

Besides this is the LAST day, and it has been since jesus ascended. But any day has many hours. And so...when the clock strikes '12' night has come and nobody can work. The clock hasnt striked so we must all work, not die and go to eternal bliss while the others bear the brunt.

The parable of the workers in the marketplace, hanging around there idly shows that no worker in the kingdom is going to get away from working in the kingdom. But whether we are 'hired' last, or 'hired' first, we all work, and get the same reward.

Now if someone like paul was hired first, where does he go? Does he go and rest...yes maybe for a while....but the parable shows that ALL the workers were in the workplace when they were called together to get paid.

Which is why...the closer we get to the end, the more workers of the kingdom there will be on earth. Not because more people get saved, but because those who have been hired first...come back and work again.

This is what paul says about the resurrection...he said that WE WHO ARE ALIVE...(he must have thought he will be) will be changed in a twinking of an eye. Now either the twinklin already happened, or he is coming back to be twinkled.

heneni

What and interesting post! I greed with most of it , but I have some question to put you to enjoy it eve more, what kind of works do you thing that the departed souls of the believers will be doing?
I often think on this parable and the application that it has to my life. You cited: “The parable of the workers in the marketplace, hanging around there idly shows that no worker in the kingdom is going to get away from working in the kingdom. But whether we are 'hired' last, or 'hired' first, we all work, and get the same reward. What is represented by the reward?
Earlier on this parable we see that several call are made to those that are idle, this goes on till the eleven hour and the payment is given out when the work is done clearly indicating that the departed does work even after death, this would be interceding work for those still not responding to the call. Do you think that those that are idle to the end (eleventh hour) can still be saved? Anyhow good post?

 

[Heneni]

Hi there! I think that the parable deals with workers in the kingdom. I have a feeling it doesnt apply to salvation. The workers are not to blame for being idle. They need somebody to hire them to work. When asked why they are idle they respond by saying that nobody has hired them. The workman would have hired them all at the same time if they were all in the marketplace at the same time, but they arrived there later than the first ones. The difference in hour is really because we dont all become ready to work in the kingdom at the same hour. But god is the one who makes us ready. So if its his responsibility to make us ready, then whether we were hired first or last does not matter, what matters is that we were ready at all to be hired. Some are only ready by the 11th hour, but god has been been working on them for the whole day! So they all get the same reward because they all deserve the same having no ability to work in the kingdom by and off themselves any more than the ones which were hired first.

Who ever got saved got saved that day on the cross. So in that sense its not about salvation but about being ready to work in the kingdom. I cannot say with surity what we do when we die. I do know that we dont go to heaven and laze around. Perhaps we might rest for a while, yes, but there is a time to rest and a time to work. And as long as it is day, which it is, we work.

I do believe that we are hired to work here on earth again. Perhaps we were not ready at the first hour but we might be ready a few hours later. We are made ready and moulded into a perfect instrument for god in the fire of god, which is on earth not in heaven. Jesus came to start this fire. If we are not ready in this lifetime or hour, we might become ready in the next lifetime or hour. We might even recieve some training while we are in the marketplace (paradise) before we come back to work. The focus is on the fact that we have to be ready and in the marketplace to be hired. So therefore, we are born with a mandate, born from above (paradise) to do that which god wills in us to do. And since he wills it in those who are hired first, and wills it in those who are hired last, they all get the same reward.

When jesus and his disciples were talking one day, he told them to lift up their eyes...the harvest was already ready he said and he said to pray for the labourers to be sent into the harvest! The harvest that was ready even in Jesus's day was gathered into the barn of god (paradise) and from there we like grains of wheat fall to the ground (earth) and spring up to work in the kingdom, producing a harvest of righteousness.

At least that is how i see it. I am eager to hear what your feelings about it is. Perhaps you would like to expand on the 'intercession' you referred to.

Heneni

 

[emiliano]

LOL!!! I wasnt exactly trying to make this a logistics problem. But well done for solving the space issue.:bow:

Id rather wanted to make a point about the pointlessness of having trillions of people 'float around', 'hang around' 'be suspended' ummmm...'collected in jars' up in heaven. What good is that doing? When you think about the time from adam to today, and you think about all the people who have died and been born all over the world for all these centuries....well...i think it would be not only a waste of space to keep them in heaven, but a waste of a perfectly good opportunity to learn more back here on earth.

What you say?

The space problem should not be an issue because as from scripture we know that what goes back to God is our soul that is not physical/material thus do not occupy any physical space, also from scripture we know that only the believer will enjoy this rest, only those that answer the call will be there.

Mat 11:28
Then Jesus said, "Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest.
Jhn 14:2
There are many rooms in my Father's home, and I am going to prepare a place for you. If this were not so, I would tell you plainly.
Jhn 14:3
When everything is ready, I will come and get you, so that you will always be with me where I am.​

What is required to be with God is to trust:

Jhn 14:1
"Don't be troubled. You trust God, now trust in me.​

 

[Katzpur]

I greed with most of it , but I have some question to put you to enjoy it eve more, what kind of works do you thing that the departed souls of the believers will be doing?

I believe the departed souls of the believers will be spreading the gospel to the departed souls of the unbelievers.

 

[Enoch07]

I believe the departed souls of the believers will be spreading the gospel to the departed souls of the unbelievers.

I believe in something very similar. Maybe its the same. God's elect will be teaching the undecided/uninformed of Gods word in the time before they are judged.

 

[emiliano]

Hi there! I think that the parable deals with workers in the kingdom. I have a feeling it doesnt apply to salvation. The workers are not to blame for being idle. They need somebody to hire them to work. When asked why they are idle they respond by saying that nobody has hired them. The workman would have hired them all at the same time if they were all in the marketplace at the same time, but they arrived there later than the first ones. The difference in hour is really because we dont all become ready to work in the kingdom at the same hour. But god is the one who makes us ready. So if its his responsibility to make us ready, then whether we were hired first or last does not matter, what matters is that we were ready at all to be hired. Some are only ready by the 11th hour, but god has been been working on them for the whole day! So they all get the same reward because they all deserve the same having no ability to work in the kingdom by and off themselves any more than the ones which were hired first.

Who ever got saved got saved that day on the cross. So in that sense its not about salvation but about being ready to work in the kingdom. I cannot say with surity what we do when we die. I do know that we dont go to heaven and laze around. Perhaps we might rest for a while, yes, but there is a time to rest and a time to work. And as long as it is day, which it is, we work.

I do believe that we are hired to work here on earth again. Perhaps we were not ready at the first hour but we might be ready a few hours later. We are made ready and moulded into a perfect instrument for god in the fire of god, which is on earth not in heaven. Jesus came to start this fire. If we are not ready in this lifetime or hour, we might become ready in the next lifetime or hour. We might even recieve some training while we are in the marketplace (paradise) before we come back to work. The focus is on the fact that we have to be ready and in the marketplace to be hired. So therefore, we are born with a mandate, born from above (paradise) to do that which god wills in us to do. And since he wills it in those who are hired first, and wills it in those who are hired last, they all get the same reward.

When jesus and his disciples were talking one day, he told them to lift up their eyes...the harvest was already ready he said and he said to pray for the labourers to be sent into the harvest! The harvest that was ready even in Jesus's day was gathered into the barn of god (paradise) and from there we like grains of wheat fall to the ground (earth) and spring up to work in the kingdom, producing a harvest of righteousness.

At least that is how i see it. I am eager to hear what your feelings about it is. Perhaps you would like to expand on the 'intercession' you referred to.

Heneni

The whole issue hangs on finding out what kind of work the departed souls are going to do after their separation from their bodies, for a long time I have thought that it will be to praise God, something like: Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of [our] lips, giving thanks to His name.( Hbr 13:15)
I cannot envisage a preaching of the Gospels, because those in paradise are the believers, the souls of those that died in Christ, they heard the Gospels and came to the Savior, when they get there they will know all spiritual truth, they will worship and praise God in spirit and in truth. So who will be in need of preaching?

Rev 19:5
Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both small and great!"​

I will thing on this one for a while though: I do believe that we are hired to work here on earth again. Perhaps we were not ready at the first hour but we might be ready a few hours later. We are made ready and moulded into a perfect instrument for god in the fire of god, which is on earth not in heaven. Jesus came to start this fire. If we are not ready in this lifetime or hour, we might become ready in the next lifetime or hour. We might even recieve some training while we are in the marketplace (paradise) before we come back to work. The focus is on the fact that we have to be ready and in the marketplace to be hired. So therefore, we are born with a mandate, born from above (paradise) to do that which god wills in us to do. And since he wills it in those who are hired first, and wills it in those who are hired last, they all get the same reward.

Is there any scripture that could reveal this to us? What is in the parable that will indicate that we are hire for a purpose, because I am a Christian I believe that we are bought, not hired? And the similes that I see is that of a slave (slave to sin) redeemed (bought back) and made free from the slavery of sin. Your take on this passage is pretty good but I need scriptural baking. There is another parable about the Kingdom of God that makes it clear that the fate of the fruitless in this life is terminal.

Mat 25:34
Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:41
"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: ​

 

[sojourner]

The space problem should not be an issue because as from scripture we know that what goes back to God is our soul that is not physical/material

Do we? Seems that Jesus had (at least by some scriptural accounts) a very physical post-resurrection body...

 

[LittleNipper]

Ok..ill be the first to admit that i sometimes have strange ideas. But i have heard some strange doctrine in my days. Here is an example: Of course it is not preached like this...but its hiding inbetween the fancy footwork.

Am i the only one who finds all of this a bit odd:

Let me explain. Lets say a wicked person dies...where do they go? People believe hell. So then...if hell is their punishment then there they are burning their chops, and weaping and wailing and the works.

But that is not quite enough...God then resurrects them. Well according to paul, who said that he was confident that there would be the resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. So..i guess now God takes them out of hell and places them infront of his judgement throne, the judgement of the LAST day. Then they are judged. The judgement is you go to hell...again. HE HE!!!!! At least this time you know why...

Alternatively if you are one of the unfortunate ones to be alive on this earth and a christian...you are going to suffer like nobody has ever suffered before, while you comrades who died before you look down upon this mayhem and seem rather fortunate that they are not here to endure it. They just pray for the end...

All they are looking forward to is to be resurrected from the dead thereby being reintroduced into bodies which they apparantly already should have if they died and gone to heaven.

So then...my christian friends who have died before me are fortunate, and they dont need to go through all the wrath of god on this earth. Lucky them then? If we endure to the end the bible says we will be saved. What about those who have not had to endure till the end...they are not here to endure to the end. They are already dead and/or with christ. (maybe not)

Also, if you are one of those unfortunate wicked who are alive when the proverbial paw paw hits the fan, and the earthquakes come and the water turns into blood and there are plagues, you will be suffering like crazy, then die and suffer some more in hell. If only you died before the paw paw hit, then you would have had only hell and not hell plus hell on earth.

I find all of this thinking a bit strange...but im sure ready to be enlightened!

Here is what I believe. There are verses and chapters in the Bible; however, for the sake of time, I will cut to the chase.

Since JESUS rose from the tomb, I believe Paradise no longer exists. It existed as a part of Hell that now still exists. Those that died prior to the resurrection of JESUS, went to Paradise to await being freed to go to heaven. Once this happened, hell increased when Paradise was emptied.

Everyone will be judged but for different things. There will be two judgments. One for believers to hand out rewards (salvation is not an issue for these). Another will be for all the nonbelievers and they will receive degrees of punishments. In the meantime, these are being held in bondage (or jail) until sentencing.

The seeming difference is that all believers who die before the catching away, are in spirit form. When the rapture (catching away) happens all believer present (dead & living) will get their glorified bodies.

Those in hell or headed there eventually, will exist in a spirit form until the FINAL JUDGMENT. This is when they get a new body. This body is theirs for eternity, but that eternity will not be with GOD.

Everyone gets a new body and everyone faces a judgment ----- not so strange.

That is how I've come to accept what the Bible presents.

 

[Enoch07]

Hell is not a place in the Bible though. You are thinking of Hell being a physical place/alternate dimension, like in Dante's Divine Comedy. What you are calling "hell" is just the another side of Heaven. There is Heaven as in a general area kinda like a big waiting area for people who have yet to be judged and then there is the Kingdom of Heaven where worthy souls go once judged. To be damned or judged to Hell is to be consumed by God. You cease to exist even retroactively, it is like you never existed at all. Your memory is erased from all whoever knew you. Everyone that died before Jesus has already been judged one way or the other. Everyone that has lived since Jesus is in Heaven in this waiting area. Everyone has to wait for judgment day at the end time to be judged. After all humans are dead. The ones that know Gods truth get to teach the ones that do not know Gods truth. And the end of this teaching everyone is judged and we continue on into the 3rd earth age in our spirit bodies with God.

The rapture is a false doctrine btw. If you value your soul do not believe in it.

 

[Heneni]

Since JESUS rose from the tomb, I believe Paradise no longer exists. It existed as a part of Hell that now still exists. Those that died prior to the resurrection of JESUS, went to Paradise to await being freed to go to heaven. Once this happened, hell increased when Paradise was emptied.

Never thought of it like that...would you mind expanding?

Everyone will be judged but for different things. There will be two judgments. One for believers to hand out rewards (salvation is not an issue for these). Another will be for all the nonbelievers and they will receive degrees of punishments. In the meantime, these are being held in bondage (or jail) until sentencing.

Wouldnt jail be the sentence though? If the jail is not the sentence than what do you feel it is?

The seeming difference is that all believers who die before the catching away, are in spirit form. When the rapture (catching away) happens all believer present (dead & living) will get their glorified bodies.

Where do you think these spirits are now?

Those in hell or headed there eventually, will exist in a spirit form until the FINAL JUDGMENT. This is when they get a new body. This body is theirs for eternity, but that eternity will not be with GOD.

Why get a body if your already in hell?

Hope to see you around more often.

heneni

 

[Heneni]

Hell is not a place in the Bible though. You are thinking of Hell being a physical place/alternate dimension, like in Dante's Divine Comedy. What you are calling "hell" is just the another side of Heaven. There is Heaven as in a general area kinda like a big waiting area for people who have yet to be judged and then there is the Kingdom of Heaven where worthy souls go once judged. To be damned or judged to Hell is to be consumed by God. You cease to exist even retroactively, it is like you never existed at all. Your memory is erased from all whoever knew you. Everyone that died before Jesus has already been judged one way or the other. Everyone that has lived since Jesus is in Heaven in this waiting area. Everyone has to wait for judgment day at the end time to be judged. After all humans are dead. The ones that know Gods truth get to teach the ones that do not know Gods truth. And the end of this teaching everyone is judged and we continue on into the 3rd earth age in our spirit bodies with God.

The rapture is a false doctrine btw. If you value your soul do not believe in it.

Do you think our resurrected bodies will have defects? Im just asking because it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye than have two and be thrown in hell. Now we know we wont have deformed resurrected bodies. And if you think about carefully this explains why earth is hell. Only place where a deformed body can be in the kingdom and the only place where a normal body can be in hell.

Heneni

 

[Enoch07]

Do you think our resurrected bodies will have defects? Im just asking because it is better to enter the kingdom with one eye than have two and be thrown in hell. Now we know we wont have deformed resurrected bodies. And if you think about carefully this explains why earth is hell. Only place where a deformed body can be in the kingdom and the only place where a normal body can be in hell.

Heneni

No because we are resurrected into our true bodies. Our spiritual bodies, which are perfect, have no defects and are eternally "young" looking for a lack of a better word.

 

[Heneni]

No because we are resurrected into our true bodies. Our spiritual bodies, which are perfect, have no defects and are eternally "young" looking for a lack of a better word.

Exactly so if we can enter the kingdom with one eye then we can safely say that the kingdom is on earth, and so is hell.

Heneni

 

[Enoch07]

Dunno what your point is exactly Heneni. Correct me if I am stepping on your toes here. But if you had one eye destroyed in life, then die later on. You will have both eyes in the afterlife. Same goes for limbs. Because God made us in His own image ( this is spiritually and physically). In our spirit bodies we are free of any defects, which include birth defects, amputations, mental handicaps, etc.

 

[sojourner]

Dunno what your point is exactly Heneni. Correct me if I am stepping on your toes here. But if you had one eye destroyed in life, then die later on. You will have both eyes in the afterlife. Same goes for limbs. Because God made us in His own image ( this is spiritually and physically). In our spirit bodies we are free of any defects, which include birth defects, amputations, mental handicaps, etc.

Sometimes birth defects, amputations, handicaps, etc. are seen as blessings -- a sort of catharsis through which the person affected can come to a greater sense of God and self.

 

[Enoch07]

Sometimes birth defects, amputations, handicaps, etc. are seen as blessings -- a sort of catharsis through which the person affected can come to a greater sense of God and self.

I agree. Stephen Hawking is a great example. His physical defects never held him back from becoming one of the top physicist in the world.

 

[sojourner]

I agree. Stephen Hawking is a great example. His physical defects never held him back from becoming one of the top physicist in the world.

So, is it possible that we show up in heaven, with our "defects" intact?

 

[Enoch07]

Not to my understanding. My understanding is our spiritual bodies are intact defect free. My understanding is that Stephen Hawking will be able to walk and talk in his spiritual body up in Heaven.

 

[sojourner]

Not to my understanding. My understanding is our spiritual bodies are intact defect free. My understanding is that Stephen Hawking will be able to walk and talk in his spiritual body up in Heaven.

If grace is found through the denial of self -- in this case, a defect -- then could it even be called a "defect?"
I know some blind people who don't want to see anymore.

 

[Enoch07]

If grace is found through the denial of self -- in this case, a defect -- then could it even be called a "defect?"
I know some blind people who don't want to see anymore.

Sorry you over my head on that one. Your gonna have to "dumb" that one down for me. hehe