Christian, prove from scripture Astral projection is demonic

[Rapha]

Result

Your question that i sent.
"if one repents and does astral travel and a demon does not latch hold of the body, is it STILL a inherent sin to astral travel then? If yes, why?"

Answer
If one drinks alcohol until drunk, drives a vehicle and does not crash, was it still a wrong choice? Yes, i think so.

If one takes a lot of drugs and does not overdose, was it still a wrong choice? Yes.

He has mercy on us when we make bad choices sometimes, but we are not entitled to it.

Just because a thief does not get caught stealing does not mean he was not wrong to steal. Maybe these concepts are not ones that are new to anyone and someone who is searching for a justification to do what this person wants to do will likely be determined to find it no matter how illogical.

It is a simple choice between answering the voice of His Spirit who speaks to a person's conscience or continuing to search for another voice to tickle their ears.

So assuming that the answer is exactly what you wanted to read, don't expect any sympathy or forgiveness on Judgment Day when you fall to hell after YHWH says to you that the only way you are going to learn (that astral travel is bad) is the hard way.

You ignored advice and your spirit will pay for it, for eternity.

 

[Rapha]

Why would you say it’s neutral for now and then say God knows it’s sorcery? First you say you don’t know if it’s sin in itself or sorcery in itself, then you say God knows it’s sorcery or sin in itself. So, that means you know God knows this, so if you know God knows this, why are you acting like you don’t know it through asking the seraph? Also, how do you know God knows this if you said you don’t know, that you have to find out from the seraph?

Sorry I got to say this many different ways, but sometimes I just feel it’s needed. Sometimes I just got to break it down so there is no misunderstanding.

Sorry; really; after stating i am filled with pride. Those who have witnessed either of the hells are meek, humble and sombre.

For that statement i cannot be bothered to answer all the questions. Whats the point ? You won't listen.
If you want answers, pray to YHWH.

YHWH knows astral travel is a sin. i know its a sin. Fallen watchers know its a useless mystery. You won't listen so it doesn't matter one single bit what i say.

As for your point about building a car being evil. This is not evil because it can be seen as useful to the economy, useful to others (ambulances !!!).

Who benefits from this quick fix astral travel ? Only you and the devil. And yes, its nothing more than a quick fix, a 'wow' factor. So what. How does the world benefit ? How does it save peoples spirits from hell when the only way back to Heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ ?
Jesus said nothing about astral travel.

If people benefited, YHWH would have promoted astral travel in the Bible.

And you know what, soon i will be gone. The real rapture will happen before the end of this year. However, YHWH will only make it happen for His followers who are willing to save lost spirits that are currently trapped in one of the many (countable) worlds running parallel to this one. Because on Judgment Day, all of these worlds will be deleted.

 

[Jollybear]

Your question that i sent.

"if one repents and does astral travel and a demon does not latch hold of the body, is it STILL a inherent sin to astral travel then? If yes, why?"
Answer
If one drinks alcohol until drunk, drives a vehicle and does not crash, was it still a wrong choice? Yes, i think so.

Were not talking about being drunk driving, were talking about astral travel, deal with the issue directly, how is it a sin in itself? Without comparing it to something else. Lets deal with the ISSUES HEAD on directly.

That’s how we get at the truth, is deal with issues directly

If one takes a lot of drugs and does not overdose, was it still a wrong choice? Yes.

Were not talking about drugs, we are talking about astral travel. Deal with the issues directly.

He has mercy on us when we make bad choices sometimes, but we are not entitled to it.

You still have not shown why astral travel is a sin in itself, all you have done is say being drunk is wrong while driving and doing drugs is wrong.

So what? I don’t care about being drunk or doing drugs. Deal with astral travel. Why is it a sin in itself?

If one repents in Christ name, and does astral travel and no demon latches hold, why is it still a sin in itself (door open, sorcery, sin in itself, call it what you will)?

Just because a thief does not get caught stealing does not mean he was not wrong to steal.

We are not talking about stealing; we are talking about astral travel. Not drunk, not drugs, not stealing, but astral travel. Why is it a sin in itself? Deal with the issues.

If someone is convicted of stealing and was brought to court, would the judge deal with his crime or issue by talking about drugs? No, he would deal with the direct issue at hand.

The direct issue at hand here is, astral travel.

Maybe these concepts are not ones that are new to anyone and someone who is searching for a justification to do what this person wants to do will likely be determined to find it no matter how illogical.

It is a simple choice between answering the voice of His Spirit who speaks to a person's conscience or continuing to search for another voice to tickle their ears.

The voice of the Holy Spirit is going to speak wisdom and knowledge, but what you speak is words that don’t deal with the real issues at hand, and that is not the words of wisdom, thus, not the voice of the Spirit of God.

So assuming that the answer is exactly what you wanted to read, don't expect any sympathy or forgiveness on Judgment Day when you fall to hell after YHWH says to you that the only way you are going to learn (that astral travel is bad) is the hard way.

You ignored advice and your spirit will pay for it, for eternity.

There you go again, using your method of manipulation rather than any wisdom from God.

Even if you’re right, that I will spend eternity in hell for astral travel, and even if you’re right that it’s a sin in itself. Even if you’re right about all that, you have NOT used the wisdom of God to show it so. You have used manipulation to bring me into your view.

Which does not work on me, it works on some people, but NOT ME. You will only make me lose absolute respect for you if you use that method. Use the wisdom of God, not manipulation.

Sorry; really; after stating i am filled with pride. Those who have witnessed either of the hells are meek, humble and sombre.

Do you know how to read properly? I was not saying sorry for saying your filled with pride, I was saying sorry that I have to speak my point in many different phrases.

No, I’m not sorry for saying you have a pride issue, you surely do, and I clearly see it and I don’t apologize for that.

However, if it hurts your feelings, I am sorry for that, it’s just a byproduct of what happens at times when you speak the truth.

Also, if your meek and humble, why don’t you show it?

 

[Jollybear]

For that statement i cannot be bothered to answer all the questions. Whats the point ? You won't listen.

Oh and how do you know I won’t listen? IF you can fully, with wisdom, substantiate everything you say, and show me logically and by point and by addressing the issue directly how astral travel is a sin in itself, how do you know I won’t listen?

The reason I am not going to listen to you thus far, is because you have only used manipulation and statements and comparing apples to oranges type of arguments and no real wisdom, therefore, why should I listen to that? I surely will not.

And by also, if you really do believe I will spend eternity in hell, why are you not concerned enough to make the effort in using wisdom and answer all my questions? Does not appear you seem too concerned about my soul now does it?

As it is, in every way possible, it appears you’re a hypocrite and you don’t live up to what you claim about yourself. You pretend.

If you want answers, pray to YHWH.

Yep, it’s official you don’t seem to listen to anything I am telling you and you have real trust issues.

YHWH knows astral travel is a sin.

Ok, and what is YHWH’s REASON for why it’s a sin in itself? Sorcery? Door open? If one repents in Christ name, and no demon latches hold, why is it a sin in itself? What is YHWH’s reason?

i know its a sin.

Oh, so now you “KNOW” it’s a sin, when before you said “I don’t know, but don’t want to find out”. So you clearly contradict yourself and make stuff up as you go along. I don’t respect people like you who do this type of thing.

Fallen watchers know its a useless mystery.

Oh ok, so why did you ask the fallen seraph if it’s a sin in itself then? You already have your answer that it’s a sin in itself, so why did you ask? You committed the very thing you accused me of when I was praying to God. Thus showing yourself to be a hypocrite.

Jesus said hypocrites were in danger of hell fire.

So, you better eat your own words and be very careful before you say I am going to spend eternity there.

If you are wise, then be VERY careful, don’t play games with me or yourself.

I treat these issues seriously, I don’t play games.

You won't listen so it doesn't matter one single bit what i say.

Oh but it does matter. First off, you don’t know if I won’t listen AFTER you provide solid answers to my points and questions. Second of all, you say I will spend eternity in hell for astral travel, yet you contradict yourself back and forth weather or not it’s a sin in itself, so yes, it does matter, it IS a big deal.

The scripture says, by our words we shall be equated and by our words we shall be condemned. Be very careful.

As for your point about building a car being evil. This is not evil because it can be seen as useful to the economy, useful to others (ambulances !!!).

You don’t know how to read things correctly. I was not saying I BELIEVE building cars is evil. I was making a point to show you’re your point displays ZERO logic.

If a book that says how to grow plants, but does not say in it building cars is evil, and if someone who reads that book says that this proves building cars is evil, because it does not mention it, that would be plain stupid.

And that is exactly what you did, you said because the bible does not say “astral travel is evil” this proves that it’s evil

You see how stupid you are?

Let me help you become more intellectually smart, it’s actually no big secret, here is how to do it, all one needs to do in order to be very intelligently smart, is simply be intellectually honest.

That’s it. No big secret.

 

[Jollybear]

Who benefits from this quick fix astral travel ?

If it’s a big effort, it is then no quick fix. Doing drugs, that is a quick fix. Believing things by mental assent and saying your secure because of mental assent to creeds, that is a quick fix. Doing hard research and hard work through practices of prayer, meditation, and good works and the discipline of the self, all of those things are NOT quick fixes.

You got everything backwards, but of course demons in you will have it that way.

Only you and the devil. And yes, its nothing more than a quick fix, a 'wow' factor. So what. How does the world benefit ? How does it save peoples spirits from hell when the only way back to Heaven is through faith in Jesus Christ ?

You are so dumb. Astral travel is a huge method of investigation into the spiritual realms. And that is of great benefit in many ways. Many times people who say “have faith in Jesus Christ” most of what that amounts to is “mental assent” and that is a quick fix.

True faith in Jesus Christ is relational and active. Not dumb quick fix, mental assent.

Jesus said nothing about astral travel.

Jesus said nothing about trucks, cars, phones, computers, spaceships, ect, so I gauss there all evil too?

If people benefited, YHWH would have promoted astral travel in the Bible.

If people benefited, YHWH would have promoted phones, computers, trucks, cars, electricy in the bible.

Stop being so stupid man, be more intelligent with your points.

And you know what, soon i will be gone. The real rapture will happen before the end of this year.

I hope you still talk on this forum after the end of this year so I can laugh at your false prediction. I will surely call you a false prophet too. And being a false prophet was very serious in OT times. They were stoned for it.

You will be wrong, just like thousands in the past predicted it and were wrong. You will be no exception.

When the end of the year comes, I will bring attention to your false prediction.

However, YHWH will only make it happen for His followers who are willing to save lost spirits that are currently trapped in one of the many (countable) worlds running parallel to this one. Because on Judgment Day, all of these worlds will be deleted.

Clear up your contradiction. Which is it, God saves from hell, or he does not?

Also, my last night attempt failed. I set clock for 3 to wake up, I did not hear it (don’t know why I didn’t hear it, frustrating). Will try again tonight. Be sure your demons are there to meet me if I happen to be successful.

 

[Rapha]

You see how stupid you are?
You are so dumb.

Well, with that level of common troll-speak, why should i answer ?

You know, i have said everything deliberately to expose your true side and you fell right into the trap. You couldn't even see it coming.

So until you say sorry and learn some manners, this thread is dead.

If you are wise, then be VERY careful, don't play games with me or yourself.

Oh, but its been a game all along. So what are you going to do about it, matey ?

i knew in advance that you were not going to stop astral traveling. And i know you are going to continue to do it again.

Now, if you are cunning, you will not astral travel ever again and prove me wrong.

But you are going to astral travel again and prove me right. Hahahahahaha. The demons are chuckling again.

 

[Jollybear]

Well, with that level of common troll-speak, why should i answer ?

You should answer because by not answering, you make yourself look like your making stuff up and that you refuse to deal with contradictions and issues. You make your point of view look stupid. You know, it's not just me your trying to convince, you should want to also convince those who read our debate. Think also of them. And it's not troll speak, I already dealt with that point about trolling and what it is.

You know, i have said everything deliberately to expose your true side and you fell right into the trap. You couldn't even see it coming.

That's a joke, and you know why? Because if this was really true, then you deliberately made yourself look like a fool, so that is hardly the truth. The truth is, that this is a lie, you did not do this to expose my true side, you said everything you said because your a poor debater and your point of view is not true, truth is not on your side and if it is, you surely do not know how to defend it.

And all that I saw coming my way concerning you was that you were going to intellectually crash and you did.

Here is all you exposed of me, that my point of view is that astral travel is good. That I am logical, and I believe in the methods of logic and scrutiny when I debate and discuss differences of view. And I get quite ****** off when people don't answer questions and deal with issues and arguments presented to them directly.

And these things were actually no big secret at all, so you really did not expose this about me, because I was not hiding this at all.

So, you saying you said all you did to get an emotional response from me, IF that is true, then you have actually met the definition from Wikipedia of being what the TRUE troll is. So, here you are accusing me of being the troll, when in fact, that is what you are, HYPOCRITE once again. And no, I will not say sorry for it. Maybe you should learn from it and think and examine yourself.

However, if it's not true, then your guilty of lying out of pride. So, you either committed the sin of hypocrisy and trolling together, or you committed the sin of lying and pride together. But, it's either one or the other.

Those sins are serious, actually, more serious then astral travel by far. (and astral travel is not sin at all anyway.)

So until you say sorry and learn some manners, this thread is dead.

Ok, your right, I should not call you fool or stupid, it's not nice and it shows I am losing some patience. I do apologize their. I will pick better words next time. I still think your points though are incorrect. I will replace the words stupid and fool, with incorrect and wrong.

Oh, but its been a game all along. So what are you going to do about it, matey ?

This stuff is reality, why play games with reality?

i knew in advance that you were not going to stop astral traveling. And i know you are going to continue to do it again.

You know very little it seams, so why would you know this about me in advance? You don't even know how to clear up your contradictions or answering my points and questions, so how would you know what I am going to do?

But, since you claim you know this about me in advance, I should just go ahead and ask you another question which I KNOW IN ADVANCE you will not answer, just like the other ones you didn't answer. But, i'll ask it anyway.

Question is: how do you know in advance that I am going to astral travel no matter what you tell me? Go ahead and tell me how you KNOW that?

Now, if you are cunning, you will not astral travel ever again and prove me wrong.

Well, I am going to keep trying to astral travel, at least until you answer all my questions and points.

But you are going to astral travel again and prove me right. Hahahahahaha. The demons are chuckling again.

That sounds so demented, I don't know weather to laugh with you or laugh at you. In any case, I do not agree I will prove you right, if anything, if I am successful, I believe I will prove you wrong.

 

[Rapha]

.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

From these 2 passages it sums up what you are going through.
1) You cannot endure sound doctrine because the man-made 'fable' astral travel is not located anywhere in the Word of YHWH.
2) You are lusting for astral travel and teaching yourself how to do it.
3) You have itching ears that only hear words from people that say what you want to hear. Thus you will turn your ears away from those who speak the truth when they say that astral travel can be grouped into useless mysticism as it was during the days of Enoch.

Question is: how do you know in advance that I am going to astral travel no matter what you tell me? Go ahead and tell me how you KNOW that?

You have 'itching ears' for human fables. Itching ears about how to astral travel followed by performing it.

So has YHWH given you the green light to cross the astral road yet ?
Or does the light still show 'Halt' ?

You know i had a dream where you got so angry that you blocked everyone from adding anymore posts to this thread on Thursday.

 

[Jollybear]

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

All that these two passages say is that God wants us to endure sound doctrine, and he does not want us to lust after false teachers with itching ears and he does not want us to turn our ears away from the truth and unto fables.

These passages DO NOT say what specifically the sound doctrine is and it does not say what the fables are. And it does NOT say that astral projection is one of those fables. Nowhere in timothy is that specified.

Want to try again?

Plus, this book also says sound teaching and doctrine is living right and believing right according to what scripture actually reveals. It also gives church instruction. There is nothing in there though of astral travel. Also a few verses down from where you quoted, in v 5 it says “keep your head in all situations”. Have you been keeping your head in this situation? No, you have thrown out your “head” from this debate. The head is the seat of intelligence. Keeping your head means to carefully answer questions and address points and issues. It also says we are not to engage in stupid arguments, but are to carefully instruct those who oppose us. Have you been doing that? No, you have only produced stupid arguments, and you have not carefully instructed or taught me how astral travel is sinful. Here is that passage 2 Timothy 2:23-25.

From these 2 passages it sums up what you are going through.

No, you have inserted your assumption (astral travel is sinful) INTO those passages, and then applied the passages to me.

That is not proper exegesis of scripture. It’s not intellectual honesty.

1) You cannot endure sound doctrine because the man-made 'fable' astral travel is not located anywhere in the Word of YHWH.

Notice it says man made fable, now just hearing that phrase, we can KNOW that your assumption does not even fit with this passage. Because astral travel is NOT a fable, it’s real. So, we know that these passages do not apply to astral travel, they only apply to actual myths or fables, things that are not real.

Plus, your inserting your assumption into the passage anyways, because the passage does not specify that astral travel is one of those manmade fables.

2) You are lusting for astral travel and teaching yourself how to do it.

You are inserting your assumption into the passage.

3) You have itching ears that only hear words from people that say what you want to hear.

Down right wrong, I actually do “hear” or “read” your words. And I prove I am open, by asking further questions and raising issues for you to address, which YOU do not want to “hear” let alone address.

Thus you will turn your ears away from those who speak the truth when they say that astral travel can be grouped into useless mysticism as it was during the days of Enoch.

Inserting your assumption into the passages.

You have 'itching ears' for human fables. Itching ears about how to astral travel followed by performing it.

You have itching ears to turn away from “correct methods of debating”.

So has YHWH given you the green light to cross the astral road yet ?

Or does the light still show 'Halt' ?

You are unbelievable. Yes, I believe he has given me the green light. I will believe that UNTIL you address all my questions and issues.

You know i had a dream where you got so angry that you blocked everyone from adding anymore posts to this thread on Thursday.

Ok, if you had a dream of me, what did I look like?

Also, I have no desire to block anyone from posting on this thread, not even you. As for the anger thing, I have the potential to get very angry with those who don’t answer questions or address points and issues, yes. But, I am keeping my cool as much as possible. I gauss I have the potential to block someone from posting on the thread, but I don’t desire to.

But, what did I look like?

Also, did that fallen seraph get back to you yet on whether astral travel is a sin in itself if the person has repented in Christ and no demon attaches?

 

[Rapha]

Remember this ?

Ok, your right, I should not call you fool or stupid, it's not nice and it shows I am losing some patience. I do apologize their. I will pick better words next time. I still think your points though are incorrect. I will replace the words stupid and fool, with incorrect and wrong.

Really ? 'better words next time' ?

Your last post

No, you have only produced stupid arguments

A true Christian wouldn't have said the word stupid, let alone repeat it after stating they will never say it again.

Are you forgetful or a liar ? Choose your response wisely.

Now for your above response i will come back in a week. Maybe you will have learnt some manners in those 7 days.

 

[Jollybear]

Remember this ?

Really ? 'better words next time' ?

I tried, but couldn’t help myself. The words I chose were to fitting to say the least.

Your last post

A true Christian wouldn't have said the word stupid, let alone repeat it after stating they will never say it again.

Oh really? I gauss when the great apostle Paul said to the Galatians in Galatians 3:1 “you foolish Galatians” and 2 Timothy 2:23 “Don’t have anything to do with foolish and STUPID arguments” he was not being a Christian? Haha!

Don’t you feel hmm, not “stupid” for saying this? But, “wrong” for saying this now?

Are you forgetful or a liar ? Choose your response wisely.

I was more so conflicted within. Neither forgetful nor liar, the ONLY reason I called your arguments “stupid” was because I was quoting the passage in Timothy in rebuttal to your quoting a passage in timothy. And that part I was quoting called it “foolish and stupid arguments” and so, I really could not replace it at that time. So, it was more of a conflict within. How do I apply this to him, when the passage says “stupid”. I can’t really change what the passage says. But when it comes to not using a passage I won’t use the word fool or stupid in application to you I will use, incorrect, wrong or error. Something more mild and gentle, because I can see that is the approach one needs to use toward you.

Also, in Proverbs 12:1 Solomon says “whoever hates correction is STUPID” I gauss Solomon was “unwise” and unchristian(unjewish at that time)?
Also Ecclesiastes 10:3 “As fools walk along the road, they show everyone how stupid they are”

As we have been walking along the road of this debate, you have been “showing everyone how stupid you are” in your debate methods. But hey, I didn’t say that, scripture did. Are you going to say the scriptures are “unchristian” now?

Also Matthew 23:17 Jesus calls some Pharisees “blind fools” Oh my gosh, Jesus must not be a Christian? Lol. Well, he was not a Christian anyway, he was a Jew, but you get the point.

Now for your above response i will come back in a week. Maybe you will have learnt some manners in those 7 days.

Yes, in that week, I hope the seraph has his answer, I will apply the same logic and questions and issues to him as I do to you. Scripture even says for us to do that, right here in 1 John 4:1 and Galatians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 11:14

 

[Draupadi]

Please forgive me for interfering. Jollybear if your heart feels that astral projection is Christian go for it. Most of us here don't want to accept the fact so please just give up on it. There are many things in life that are not clear. Maybe one day it will be cleared up. As much as I know it's not right but who knows you could be right too.

I recommend that you ask and/or debate with a Christian scholar about this instead of arguing with Rapha. A scholar will give you better answer. During Prophet Muhammad's time they didn't have cosmetics with alcohols or elaborate make-ups like today. So whether using them is right or not is open to different interpretations. As much as I know that the Bible is not clear about astral projection. And finally I have to say that don't equate magic with divine miracles.

 

[idav]

Please forgive me for interfering. Jollybear if your heart feels that astral projection is Christian go for it. Most of us here don't want to accept the fact so please just give up on it. There are many things in life that are not clear. Maybe one day it will be cleared up. As much as I know it's not right but who knows you could be right too.

I recommend that you ask and/or debate with a Christian scholar about this instead of arguing with Rapha. A scholar will give you better answer. During Prophet Muhammad's time they didn't have cosmetics with alcohols or elaborate make-ups like today. So whether using them is right or not is open to different interpretations. As much as I know that the Bible is not clear about astral projection. And finally I have to say that don't equate magic with divine miracles.

Just as an observer wanting to chime in I find the mentality of performing miracles as sinful kinda odd. Since people should be able to. That said if astral projection is a real thing I would think it as unwise or even dangerous more than anything. If I can ask, why do you see magic and divine miracles as anything different? I think thats where the main disconnect is. Don't practice witch craft but if your in gods name doing whatever then it amounts to same thing as far as I can tell.

In the bible the best example is the casting out of demons, Jesus didn't forbid it even though the apostles were very concerned. Two things Jesus mentioned. If he they aren't against me then its not wrong, another thing he said it should be of God. Those are the only stipulations for these type of things far as I have read.

Now with the belief of demons and casting out this is where the danger lies cause it amounts to casting out your soul which leaves an open door for any entity me thinks. Very dangerous but sinful? If it is of god then the fruits will show if not then it won't, quite simple.

 

[Jollybear]

Please forgive me for interfering.

There’s nothing to forgive, please do interfere, by all means. Your welcome.

Jollybear if your heart feels that astral projection is Christian go for it. Most of us here don't want to accept the fact so please just give up on it.

The reason I don’t give up on it is not because I am trying to make you accept it, but because I want complete dialogue and debate on the issues of the subject. When all issues are dealt with and all questions answered, then the truth is in bloom.

Personally, the debate on the other thread I got going, and have had going for quite awhile now with sherinui, the truth has been blooming quite well on that thread. My discussion with him has been very fruitful. He has been wonderful to discuss the questions and underlying issues with, and I highly respect him for that.

There are many things in life that are not clear.

My approach to life and all subjects is logic, scrutiny, intellectual honesty and rigorous analytical observation. Through these, I believe the truth can be made clear on any subject. I firmly and wholeheartedly, without one ounce of doubt (yes, with all honesty I am saying this) believe this.

Maybe one day it will be cleared up.

It can be cleared up if people deal with all the issues and answer all the questions. If they can’t and if no one can, then the truth is thus made clear.

As much as I know it's not right but who knows you could be right too.

As much as you know? How do you know it’s not right? What is your reasons?

I recommend that you ask and/or debate with a Christian scholar about this instead of arguing with Rapha. A scholar will give you better answer.

I’m sure the scholar may give a better answer, but I was hoping that such a scholar would be on here to discuss it. If there is any such one out there, and you think astral travel is wrong, then lets discuss it.

But, I also don’t think a person needs to be a scholar to be able to discuss the issues either. If a person is educated and logical and honest, debating the issues should be very easy. All it takes is critical thinking.

During Prophet Muhammad's time they didn't have cosmetics with alcohols or elaborate make-ups like today. So whether using them is right or not is open to different interpretations. As much as I know that the Bible is not clear about astral projection. And finally I have to say that don't equate magic with divine miracles.

Define magic and define miracle?

 

[Jollybear]

Just as an observer wanting to chime in I find the mentality of performing miracles as sinful kinda odd. Since people should be able to. That said if astral projection is a real thing I would think it as unwise or even dangerous more than anything.

I don’t think it’s dangerous, as long as you have the armor of truth, righteousness on then no demon can touch you. But if you don’t, being in the body won’t protect you anyway.

If there is any danger, it’s not a spiritual danger, it would be a physical danger only, because it lowers your heart rate and blood pressure, it in a small sense, brings you near death. But, still, even then, it’s not too much to worry about. It will not kill you. If you FEAR an entity will attack you, then if you project, then that fear will manifest and an entity will attack. So, the only thing to fear in that realm, is fear itself. Satan will use that fear against you. Fear is a piece of your armor missing, and then he attacks through that weakness.

If I can ask, why do you see magic and divine miracles as anything different? I think thats where the main disconnect is. Don't practice witch craft but if your in gods name doing whatever then it amounts to same thing as far as I can tell.

In the bible the best example is the casting out of demons, Jesus didn't forbid it even though the apostles were very concerned. Two things Jesus mentioned. If he they aren't against me then its not wrong, another thing he said it should be of God. Those are the only stipulations for these type of things far as I have read.
Now with the belief of demons and casting out this is where the danger lies cause it amounts to casting out your soul which leaves an open door for any entity me thinks.

Ok, let me build on the analogy that rapha spoke about earlier. The body is like a house; your soul is like you living in your house. If you leave your house, then a demon (criminal) can break in. If you don’t leave your house, then the demon cannot break in. So, rapha’s rational goes. However, this is flawed. Because, if you have the armor of God on your soul, that is like having an alarm system in your house. Whether you leave your house or don’t leave it, makes no difference, if the criminal breaks in, they will get caught and put in jail. However, if you don’t have the alarm system, it makes no difference if you STAY in your house, a criminal (demon) can break in whether you are there or not. And you can’t protect yourself just because you’re in the house, you need the security. The security is the alarm system, cops, or a gun. In this case, it’s the armor of God in your soul. That is, righteousness, and truth and faith, those are your alarm system, or police or your gun. You follow? You understand?

Very dangerous but sinful?

Only dangerous if you don’t have the armor, but sinful? Not at all. The only sinful thing is not having the armor. And using astral travel for the wrong reasons, that would be sinful, but astral travel ITSELF is not inherently sinful by itself. There is no CONCIEVABLE means by which it can be sinful by itself. NONE. Even rapha could not give one, I am still waiting on his seraph angel to answer that question for me through him.

If it is of god then the fruits will show if not then it won't, quite simple.

What fruit are you talking about?

 

[idav]

What fruit are you talking about?

I see your POV. Actions have consequences so as you said doing for the wrong reasons will show. What would be a reason to do so though?

 

[Draupadi]

There’s nothing to forgive, please do interfere, by all means. Your welcome.



The reason I don’t give up on it is not because I am trying to make you accept it, but because I want complete dialogue and debate on the issues of the subject. When all issues are dealt with and all questions answered, then the truth is in bloom.

Personally, the debate on the other thread I got going, and have had going for quite awhile now with sherinui, the truth has been blooming quite well on that thread. My discussion with him has been very fruitful. He has been wonderful to discuss the questions and underlying issues with, and I highly respect him for that.



My approach to life and all subjects is logic, scrutiny, intellectual honesty and rigorous analytical observation. Through these, I believe the truth can be made clear on any subject. I firmly and wholeheartedly, without one ounce of doubt (yes, with all honesty I am saying this) believe this.



It can be cleared up if people deal with all the issues and answer all the questions. If they can’t and if no one can, then the truth is thus made clear.



As much as you know? How do you know it’s not right? What is your reasons?



I’m sure the scholar may give a better answer, but I was hoping that such a scholar would be on here to discuss it. If there is any such one out there, and you think astral travel is wrong, then lets discuss it.

But, I also don’t think a person needs to be a scholar to be able to discuss the issues either. If a person is educated and logical and honest, debating the issues should be very easy. All it takes is critical thinking.



Define magic and define miracle?

I think I might have mentioned before that I have read on the Net that both Christians and some occult practitioners forbid it as there is a risk you will be possessed by the demons. Not only astral travelling but even calling them up and asking their favours is dangerous. And as for doing in God's name let me tell you something. Many Muslims start travelling outside supplicating to God for their safety. But if someone is destined to be harmed or killed by God even that won't work. I myself am learning occult practices in legal ways (without asking the Devil's favour instead of God's). But I won't venture into the aforementioned territories because what if God wants me to fall in trouble? Even those who don't astral travel are possessed by demons and here you are opening yourself up. Now you may ask why would God want us to be in danger? Well that is how God tests us. We may even die by being possessed according to God's will but that doesn't mean He hates us.

As for the difference between miracles and magic the former is exclusively divine and the latter is not. As for being sinful or not I have said before that the Bible is silent about it and so astral travelling can be open to different interpretations. My knowledge about the Bible and astral travelling is very limited. But what I know and what my conscience is telling me I am saying here.

 

[Jollybear]

I see your POV. Actions have consequences so as you said doing for the wrong reasons will show. What would be a reason to do so though?

The wrong reasons for doing astral travel would be these off the top of my head, there could be more.

Astral traveling to some women's house you know, to watch her be naked. Intruding on privacy. This is obviously a bad thing.

going to an enemy's house to put a curse on him.

going to satans kingdom to get information on how he can use you for his plan in the world.

Obviously, these three things would be sinful reasons for astral travel.

There could be more reasons, i can't think of them though.

But, i can actually think of a whole lot more good reasons to do astral travel.

 

[Jollybear]

I think I might have mentioned before that I have read on the Net that both Christians and some occult practitioners forbid it as there is a risk you will be possessed by the demons.

Not all Christian groups forbid it. And I would think that most occult groups would not forbid it. If you have the source of the occult group that forbids it, I would very much like to see it. I find it strange that they would forbid it.

But, it’s irrelevant. AT the end of the day, it does not matter if Christians groups say it’s sinful or dangerous, or if a rare few occult groups say it’s dangerous. Because at the end of the day, I think those who actually mapped out the soul and the spirit world through actually doing astral travel a lot, what they have to say along with their experiences should hold most weight.

Think about it, all those Christian groups that say it’s dangerous or sinful, most of them have not even touched astral travel, all they go by is a few vague bible passages about sorcery and wizardry, and those passages don’t even say specifically anything on astral travel anyway.

And if some occult practitioner had a RARE bad experience with astral travel, MOST do not have a bad experience. Plus, that bad experience could be made into a positive if they would “put the armor of God on”. Demons can’t touch you with the armor.

Not only astral travelling but even calling them up and asking their favours is dangerous. And as for doing in God's name let me tell you something. Many Muslims start travelling outside supplicating to God for their safety. But if someone is destined to be harmed or killed by God even that won't work. I myself am learning occult practices in legal ways (without asking the Devil's favour instead of God's). But I won't venture into the aforementioned territories because what if God wants me to fall in trouble?

If you live right and love God, why would he want you to fall in trouble?

Even those who don't astral travel are possessed by demons and here you are opening yourself up.

Wait, you’re putting the cart before the horse there. Those who are possessed of demons while in the body they are possessed for a reason and those who get possessed while out of the body, they get possessed for the SAME reasons. And that reason is not because they left the body. Both reasons in both cases are because the person does not have the armor of God on them. Therefore, the demons get attracted to the person. They are drawn together like magnets.

Now you may ask why would God want us to be in danger? Well that is how God tests us.

Ok, well then if God wants us to be in danger to test us, then NOT astral traveling will thus NOT make us escape coming into the danger God has ordained for one. So therefore, doing astral travel will not make any difference, thus it would be ok to do. Because if you don’t astral travel, you will come into danger, if you do astral travel you will come into danger, because either way, God wants it. You understand?

We may even die by being possessed according to God's will but that doesn't mean He hates us.

Hmmm, why would you think God is like this? God is full of love, he IS love, this is what the bible says he is anyway. It says “God IS love”. So why would he want this for anyone? You said this does not mean he hates us, ok, what does it mean then? Why would he want someone to get possessed and die from it? And after they die, does he want their soul to go to hell with the demon that possessed them too?

As for the difference between miracles and magic the former is exclusively divine and the latter is not.

Ok, so by your definition, anything God directly does is a miracle and everything we directly do is magic. That must mean by me typing this message to you, since I am doing it, it’s magic?

As for being sinful or not I have said before that the Bible is silent about it and so astral travelling can be open to different interpretations. My knowledge about the Bible and astral travelling is very limited. But what I know and what my conscience is telling me I am saying here.

Why does your conscience tell you it’s sinful? Or magic?

 

[Draupadi]

OK you are a Christian and I am a Muslim. There maybe slight variations in our beliefs here. You said that if we follow God why would He want to throw us into danger? According to our faith even the most pious person may fall into grave danger. Remember Prophet Job? You are saying people get possessed by demons if they are detached from God, but we believe that even believers get possessed. It is a part and parcel of our faith to be tested by thrown into dangers and/or suffer from different issues. My current personal experiences are telling me that God is testing me with issues that pains me the most. And I am incapable of changing God's mind to change it to another issue so that I can tolerate it better. But that won't be happening because then it will no longer be a test. And God's love has nothing to do with it. Our Scripture always says that the only place of peace is paradise in afterlife. And yes I agree that if God wants us to fall into trouble we will anyhow whether we astral travel or not.

I don't have anything against magic and I myself am practising it. I should have made it clear. Miracles are from divine sources while the occult can be both from the divine and evil sources. I am a practitioner of ceremonial magic whose followers believe that even well intentioned spell casting can yield bad results. In other words white magic can turn into black magic because fate is neutral. For that we are advised to divinate before we do something like that. In the same way who knows what trouble you may face because even God can throw you into trouble if you go on invoking Him, ACCORDING TO OUR FAITH. I never said that it is sinful because the Bible is actually silent about it. I am just asking you not to do it. I hope I have made things clear.