Christian, prove from scripture Astral projection is demonic

[idav]

But, i can actually think of a whole lot more good reasons to do astral travel.

That is what I was asking. Why do it? I could think of the negative aspects but no reason to for positive reasons.

 

[Jollybear]

OK you are a Christian and I am a Muslim. There maybe slight variations in our beliefs here. You said that if we follow God why would He want to throw us into danger? According to our faith even the most pious person may fall into grave danger. Remember Prophet Job?

Yes, there are different reasons for why people suffer, prophet Job’s reason was to have his values and righteousness and faithfulness tested to see if he truly held to those things. And he did. He passed the test. But, he was not possessed of a demon if you have not noticed.

You are saying people get possessed by demons if they are detached from God, but we believe that even believers get possessed.

Being possessed of a demon means the person is in spiritual danger, not physical danger perse, but spiritual. Why would God want the person to be put in spiritual danger? The purpose of God allowing danger to begin with is either because of giving free will, because of wanting us to grow, or tested, but if we are put in spiritual danger, there cannot be growth from that, that would stunt growth, because it destroys us spiritually. If a demon possesses your body, then it’s like your soul becomes one with his spirit. How can your will and soul then become one with God?

It is a part and parcel of our faith to be tested by thrown into dangers and/or suffer from different issues. My current personal experiences are telling me that God is testing me with issues that pains me the most. And I am incapable of changing God's mind to change it to another issue so that I can tolerate it better. But that won't be happening because then it will no longer be a test. And God's love has nothing to do with it. Our Scripture always says that the only place of peace is paradise in afterlife. And yes I agree that if God wants us to fall into trouble we will anyhow whether we astral travel or not.

So, if God would cause the person to fall into danger whether they astral travel or not, why is astral travel then still wrong to do?

And if it’s God’s WILL to be possessed of a demon in order to be tested, ok, why would it be wrong to astral travel? Because regardless of doing it, one would get possessed of a demon anyway, because it’s God’s will. So, why would astral travel be wrong then in this scenario?

You know why I ask so many questions, because I have doubts that people truly understand what and why they believe what they believe or say what they say. So, I press them with many questions. So, bear with me here. You will see the method behind this as we go along here.

I don't have anything against magic and I myself am practising it. I should have made it clear. Miracles are from divine sources while the occult can be both from the divine and evil sources. I am a practitioner of ceremonial magic whose followers believe that even well intentioned spell casting can yield bad results. In other words white magic can turn into black magic because fate is neutral. For that we are advised to divinate before we do something like that. In the same way who knows what trouble you may face because even God can throw you into trouble if you go on invoking Him, ACCORDING TO OUR FAITH. I never said that it is sinful because the Bible is actually silent about it. I am just asking you not to do it. I hope I have made things clear.

So your saying if one astral travels, either God could have done it (divine miracle) or an evil spirit could have done it? What about the person themselves doing it? If the person themselves do it, is that an evil source? And if so, why?

Also, if a believer is possessed by God's will, then the evil spirit can make them astral travel, then what is wrong with that, since it's God's will? New scenario now.

And you said you practice magic, so if one does astral travel by the help of their own effort, then this makes it magic, so you concede magic is ok to practice.

 

[Jollybear]

That is what I was asking. Why do it? I could think of the negative aspects but no reason to for positive reasons.

Yes, just as there are bad reasons or motivations for astral travel, there are also good motivations.

1: to explore and map out the soul and spirit world, to gain the knowledge and science of that realm. This is a good reason. Along this area is also the knowledge of the after life to a high level. You no longer rely on creeds, but direct knowledge through experience.

2: to visit the realms of heaven and glean information from God to see how he can use you specifically in this world for his glory. Of course God can reveal this in your body, but when your outside your "FLESH" you become more sensetive. I don't care what anybody says about that, i KNOW that for a fact through experience.

3: To visit political parties or other groups that are sinister and who have evil plans, and find out those plans in order to expose them to the world. Because you are out for the best interest of the world.

4: to win the lotery or stocks. (this may appear selfish, but it's not) This is not selfish because you can use that money to help others and spend more time doing more important things since you won it.

I think this sums up a very good list of good reasons to do it.

 

[Draupadi]

Yes, there are different reasons for why people suffer, prophet Job’s reason was to have his values and righteousness and faithfulness tested to see if he truly held to those things. And he did. He passed the test. But, he was not possessed of a demon if you have not noticed.



Being possessed of a demon means the person is in spiritual danger, not physical danger perse, but spiritual. Why would God want the person to be put in spiritual danger? The purpose of God allowing danger to begin with is either because of giving free will, because of wanting us to grow, or tested, but if we are put in spiritual danger, there cannot be growth from that, that would stunt growth, because it destroys us spiritually. If a demon possesses your body, then it’s like your soul becomes one with his spirit. How can your will and soul then become one with God?




So, if God would cause the person to fall into danger whether they astral travel or not, why is astral travel then still wrong to do?

And if it’s God’s WILL to be possessed of a demon in order to be tested, ok, why would it be wrong to astral travel? Because regardless of doing it, one would get possessed of a demon anyway, because it’s God’s will. So, why would astral travel be wrong then in this scenario?

You know why I ask so many questions, because I have doubts that people truly understand what and why they believe what they believe or say what they say. So, I press them with many questions. So, bear with me here. You will see the method behind this as we go along here.



So your saying if one astral travels, either God could have done it (divine miracle) or an evil spirit could have done it? What about the person themselves doing it? If the person themselves do it, is that an evil source? And if so, why?

Also, if a believer is possessed by God's will, then the evil spirit can make them astral travel, then what is wrong with that, since it's God's will? New scenario now.

And you said you practice magic, so if one does astral travel by the help of their own effort, then this makes it magic, so you concede magic is ok to practice.

I believe that you can also be physically hurt if you are possessed by demons. I think I have read in the Bible that a bunch of pigs fell off a cliff after a legion of demons had possessed them. Even if the danger is only spiritual I am giving my advice as a Muslim who believe that you can suffer anything due to God testing you. Just because Prophet Job wasn't tested by demon possession doesn't mean that it's not a mean of test. Look how Mary Magdalene's faith in Christ was brought about by demon possession. And as for falling in trouble by other manners if not astral travelling I agree with you and have nothing to say against it .

It's my belief that astral travelling is not ordered by the Gods of any Abrahamic faith. Otherwise it would have been specifically mentioned in our Scriptures. But that is just my opinion and I could be wrong. I won't call it a sin due to my limited knowledge but I won't encourage others to do it.

Yes I concede magic is OK to practise as long as I don't deal with the spirits and their world. It is just my personal philosophy which stems from the fact that these are risky businesses. The Quran only forbids divination by arrows and following the Book of Solomon and two angels' occult guidance. The first we believe was written by the djinns after Prophet Solomon's death to mislead people. The two angels named Harut and Marut did teach some occult practices to human beings as God's test.

And to tell the truth Jollybear although I believe in God, I don't have much faith in Him that He can bring peace in my life again. So I am trying to do so by both worshipping Him and casting spells. Yes I may sound ungrateful but I have had enough of God's tests.

 

[Jollybear]

I believe that you can also be physically hurt if you are possessed by demons. I think I have read in the Bible that a bunch of pigs fell off a cliff after a legion of demons had possessed them.

That is correct. The danger is only physical if or when the demon takes control of the body and does something to kill it. But if that does not take place, or if it does, but the demon is not successful in killing the body, then the danger would remain only spiritual.

Even if the danger is only spiritual I am giving my advice as a Muslim who believe that you can suffer anything due to God testing you. Just because Prophet Job wasn't tested by demon possession doesn't mean that it's not a mean of test.

My question though is this: why would God want anyone to be tested by having them undergo spiritual danger (demon possession)? Would spiritual danger put them in harm’s way of hell? If it does not mean God hates them, what does it mean?

Look how Mary Magdalene's faith in Christ was brought about by demon possession.

Also remember that Jesus cast out seven demons from her, thus showing he and his father (God) did not want the demons in her, thus did not want her being in spiritual danger.

And as for falling in trouble by other manners if not astral travelling I agree with you and have nothing to say against it .

Ok, so if God wanted to test the person by putting them in spiritual danger, then astral traveling would not matter, because even if the person did not do it, God would put them into spiritual danger anyways. So therefore, doing astral travel would be ok, because it would not further their spiritual danger anymore then what God has already given them.

It's my belief that astral travelling is not ordered by the Gods of any Abrahamic faith.

It is true that it’s not specifically spelled out in the scriptures, but, it could have been done and called something else. Such as connecting to the spirit world, talking to God, having dreams, entering a trance, ect.

But, even if it was not done because no one was aware of it, that does not mean we cannot advance in our spirituality today. Think about it, the parents want their children to learn from them, but they usually want their children to advance further then they were. Sometimes the children learn, sometimes they advance, and sometimes they rebel. Why would it be any different with our spirituality? Why wouldn’t Abraham and his sons want us to advance further in our spirituality then he did? I think he would want that.

Otherwise it would have been specifically mentioned in our Scriptures. But that is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

Just because it’s not mentioned does not mean we should not practice it. For example, computers, trucks, cars, electronics, telephones, those things are not mentioned, but are they wrong to use? No.

The bible does not say whether or not we should fly to mars, but does that mean it’s wrong to fly to mars?

You see my point?

I won't call it a sin due to my limited knowledge but I won't encourage others to do it.

What I am trying to get clarity on from you is this: if you don’t call it a sin, and you concede that God could put one in spiritual danger because of a test, whether one did astral travel or not, why then do you say one should not do it? Is it because it’s not mentioned in scripture? Well, so is flying to mars, that’s not mentioned, so is electronics, that’s not mentioned. So, why do you say we should not astral travel?

Yes I concede magic is OK to practise as long as I don't deal with the spirits and their world. It is just my personal philosophy which stems from the fact that these are risky businesses. The Quran only forbids divination by arrows and following the Book of Solomon and two angels' occult guidance. The first we believe was written by the djinns after Prophet Solomon's death to mislead people. The two angels named Harut and Marut did teach some occult practices to human beings as God's test.

Why not deal with ALL spirits though in there world? There are good spirits, not just bad ones.

And to tell the truth Jollybear although I believe in God, I don't have much faith in Him that He can bring peace in my life again. So I am trying to do so by both worshipping Him and casting spells. Yes I may sound ungrateful but I have had enough of God's tests.

Most people who have the near death experience or a DEEP astral travel experience report experiencing amazing peace and seeing the bright light through the tunnel, the joy is unspeakable they claim.

If this is so, it only makes sense to say that astral travel is nothing less than an amazing tool to connect to that realm and to God. Trust me on this, I have read over 500 testimonies of near death experiences, and the many reports are quite astonishing. And the near death experience and astral experiences are virtually identical.

 

[Nothingness888]

Astral projection is demonic. Angels are made of fire, and we know from the Book of Enoch that: "They have learned all the secrets of the angels and all their powers." This means that the ones who worship the angels get their abilities. In the astral field, fire, or spiritual field, they whisper thoughts that sound like your own into the mind of people.

They traded their eternity for temporary power and pleasure. They will go to eternal fire and make their home eternally in Hell.

 

[Draupadi]

I tried my best to explain to you that in our faith God puts us into trouble not only to punish us but also to test. It is apparent from what we see around us that even innocent people suffer, including the children who have no knowledge of right or wrong and whom both our faiths consider innocent. It may not match the view of your faith and I have nothing to do here.

 

[Jollybear]

Astral projection is demonic.

Why is it demonic?

Angels are made of fire,

Ok, and who cares, what does that have to do with astral travel?

and we know from the Book of Enoch that: "They

Who is “they”? the angels learned these secrets from the angels? Ok, where did the first angels learn these things from then?

have learned all the secrets of the angels and all their powers." This means that the ones who worship the angels get their abilities.

I don’t worship angels, nor does many others who astral travel, they also don’t worship angels. And worshiping angels won’t make you astral travel anyways. What do you mean by worship, define that? Because if that causes angels to give you ability to astral travel, how does that cause it? Define worship?

In the astral field, fire, or spiritual field, they whisper thoughts that sound like your own into the mind of people.

Ok, so you get a thought from an angel, and? What’s that have to do with astral travel now?

They traded their eternity for temporary power and pleasure. They will go to eternal fire and make their home eternally in Hell.

And what is wrong with power and pleasure if it’s used in a good way? If done in a good way with good motive, why would that lead the angels or anybody else to hell?

Oh boy, another trip around the same o mountain.

I fear this is going to turn out to be another one that won't answer all the points and questions and undergo the scrutiny.

But, i hope im wrong.

Please God, make me be wrong. If you consider astral travel sinful, PLEASE make these folks answer all the questions and points. Should be so easy for you and for them if truth is on there side. If it don't happen God, then i know your on my side with this.

 

[Jollybear]

I tried my best to explain to you that in our faith God puts us into trouble not only to punish us but also to test.

Ok, I asked you a series of questions in my last post, you didn’t answer those, so how did you do your “best”?

I don’t disagree that God tests some people and punishes some, and sometimes people put themselves in trouble. Each case is different for why a person may suffer.

But if your saying demon possession is a test from God, then why should a person not do astral travel, since in that scenario it would make no difference? If God wants the person to be demon possessed, then NOT astral traveling won’t protect them anyway, so, what is wrong with astral traveling? Why do you still advice not to do it?

It is apparent from what we see around us that even innocent people suffer, including the children who have no knowledge of right or wrong and whom both our faiths consider innocent. It may not match the view of your faith and I have nothing to do here.

Innocent children suffer yes, but each child who suffers suffers for different reasons, it’s a case by case basis.

For instance, if a child gets abused by a parent and dies, why did that child suffer? Because God gave free will to the parent, and the parent used that will to beat and kill their child. That’s why that child suffered in that case.

Why did God give free will to that parent? Because if he did not, then he would have made robots; so the next question is, why couldn’t God take away the free will of just that parent at that time? Well, if he did that, the parent would not learn the hard way the consequences of his/her actions. Plus, he would be making them a robot, it goes back to that. Also, if he does it for one parent, he would have to do it for every parent in every case like this, thus he would be crippling society from learning and growing in their actions and experiences.

It’s quite simple to me. On an intellectual level, I have no problem with the issue of suffering, the only problem I have with suffering is that I don’t LIKE suffering and I don’t like seeing innocent people suffer, but I understand it none the less.

It’s simple to me.

 

[Draupadi]

Jollybear I didn't answer the rest of your questions because I don't have answers for them and because I can't prove my points. I am not avoiding you. I am not saying that astral projection is a test. It is the bad consequences you may suffer are either your punishments or tests. That is what my faith says. Whether it is demonic or not is beyond my scope to say. I just came here to warn you like the rest. Even though I find your points quite convincing I won't still change my mind. Call me a coward but even in God's name I won't do it.

 

[Jollybear]

Jollybear I didn't answer the rest of your questions because I don't have answers for them and because I can't prove my points.

Interesting, thank you for the honesty. However, should this not prove that my view is proven?

I am not avoiding you. I am not saying that astral projection is a test. It is the bad consequences you may suffer are either your punishments or tests.

So, if I astral project, then I MAY undergo a test your saying? But if I DON’T astral project, that test that I MAY undergo, I will definitely not undergo it now? The test only MAY pertain IF I astral project?

Do I understand right?

That is what my faith says.

Why does your faith say this?

Whether it is demonic or not is beyond my scope to say.

What does your faith say it is?

I just came here to warn you like the rest.

Warn me of what? What do I need warning from? What will happen if I astral project? And, why would it happen?

Even though I find your points quite convincing I won't still change my mind.

If my points are TRULY convincing to you, then you already have changed your mind.

Call me a coward but even in God's name I won't do it.

I won’t call you a coward, you have been quite honest, where some folks may get angry and go in denial mode, such as Rapha has done.

However, I do see that you are trying to HOLD on to what you currently thought. There is an inner struggle going on within you to figure out now what you want to believe on the issue. You want to believe my view is wrong, but inside, you feel its right because you said it sounds convincing.

 

[Draupadi]

To know whether astral travelling is good or bad I have to do it myself. The only source of knowing about it I have with me is you who says it is safe if it is done in the name of God.

OK if you don't undergo God's test via astral travelling you will be tested via other ways. And you have a good point there.

As to why my faith believes that bad things can happen to good people only my God can answer it. Because it is He who has created the world like this. My theory is that it is test or punishment. For us Muslims the real place of peace is paradise in the afterlife. Our God is loving but we have to face His tests which He chooses according to His will. We have nothing to do here because we are His slaves.

 

[Jollybear]

To know whether astral travelling is good or bad I have to do it myself.

Yea, you could find out personally and directly that way. But indirectly you can find out through the many testimonies of others.

The only source of knowing about it I have with me is you who says it is safe if it is done in the name of God.

Ok, but there are many, many more sources of knowing about it than me. There are many books written on the subject of astral travel. There is a free book on the internet that I have read. The person has founded a research organization for it, and he and others have had hundreds of astral travels, and they are all positive, I am not aware of any negative ones. If there are any, it is rare. And the negative one’s are not caused by the astral travel itself, but other reasons personal to the individual.

OK if you don't undergo God's test via astral travelling you will be tested via other ways. And you have a good point there.

Thanks, I’m glad you think so, lol. You certainly don’t have much of a pride issue when it comes to debating a subject. That’s good. It shows your open and honest.

As to why my faith believes that bad things can happen to good people only my God can answer it. Because it is He who has created the world like this. My theory is that it is test or punishment. For us Muslims the real place of peace is paradise in the afterlife. Our God is loving but we have to face His tests which He chooses according to His will. We have nothing to do here because we are His slaves.

I have put a lot of thought into why suffering happens to people, and here are nine things I have come up with in the past. And each one is distinctly different then the other.

1 because he gave free will to people and within free will there is potential to do good or bad.

2 because we deserve to have bad done to us since we have done bad to others.

3 because God wants to prove to us how bad our bad choices are by allowing us to do them and thus learn the hard way that he really was right about what he forbids us to do.

4 because bad doing has separated us from his protection from bad (original sin).

5 because he wants to test our faith and loyalty in the face of a bad world, to see if we will continue to trust him despite bad being in existence.

6 he has something better planed for those who trust him through the bad doing, it’s the rewarding outcome as we trust him.

7 Some people fail to cry out to him which sometimes he won’t intervene if we don’t cry out to him, thus the bad happens.

8 bad doing is evidence for the existence of God, for we cannot say “this is bad” if there is no standard of “good” and thus if there is a standard of good and bad, that implies there is a standard outside ourselves that is impressed on our conscience, which means there is a authority outside ourselves, which is God. In other words, if there is no God, there is no good or bad either, for then there is no true “authority”.

9 to show that we are mortal and all our glory is but the grass of the field which is here today and gone tomorrow. In other words to lower our pride or conceit.

 

[Draupadi]

You know Jollybear it's not just astral travelling, occult practice as general is frowned upon by many. I had asked my dad to print out a magic book and on an occasion when he got angry he accused me of practising black magic! Another guy I used to know forbade me from practising any of it's forms because his home was haunted by some demons for a couple of days. Coming from an Abrahamic faith it is difficult to practise in a manner consistent with your religion. There are some Islamic occult practises but my real life experience tells me that they are ineffective. They are very limited in their achievements and are Islamised versions of Arabic magic.

 

[Desert Snake]

jollybear

Let us know if you see any demons. Try to get their names as well.

 

[Jollybear]

You know Jollybear it's not just astral travelling, occult practice as general is frowned upon by many.

Yes, that is true, but USUALLY the many people who frown on it are ignorant about it. People attack what they fear and what they do not understand.

Here is a bible verse that I find very fitting about how most people are, it’s in Jude verse 10 “Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals-these are the very things that destroy them.”

I had asked my dad to print out a magic book and on an occasion when he got angry he accused me of practising black magic!

Yep, false perception runs rampant in people who have no discipline to ask questions and keep their assumptions in check. They assume before they ask.

Another guy I used to know forbade me from practicing any of it's forms because his home was haunted by some demons for a couple of days.

What caused his home to be haunted by the demons?

Coming from an Abrahamic faith it is difficult to practise in a manner consistent with your religion. There are some Islamic occult practises but my real life experience tells me that they are ineffective. They are very limited in their achievements and are Islamised versions of Arabic magic.

I know with my religion, it seems perfectly consistent to me, based on how I interpret the bible, to practice astral projection. Because the subject outside the bible and even inside the bible is NOT black and white, it’s quite complex.

The bible takes into account, motives, thoughts and actions, not just the practice.

People forget that angels, even the fallen angels who taught mankind magic and stuff, these angels got that knowledge from someplace else BEFORE they were fallen. They got this knowledge from God. All things that exist; exist because of God, including all knowledge. There is nothing wrong with knowledge (including the knowledge of magic), what is wrong, is when it falls into the hands of evil people.

Let me use an analogy to illustrate my point. Is there anything wrong with the knowledge on how to make a butter knife? Absolutely not. And, there is also nothing wrong with the butter knife itself. So, nothing wrong with the knowledge on how to make it, and nothing wrong with what’s made. And when one uses the knife to spread say, butter or Peanut butter or jam on toast, that is using it for good. But if such a knife were to fall into the hands of an insane maniac killer, look out. Even though this maniac would use the knife for evil, that is not what the knife was meant for, and that is not what the knowledge to make the knife was known for.

It’s the same with occultism or magic or astral travel, or anything else in the world. Any form of knowledge, it does not matter what it is. All knowledge, is just that, knowledge. All skill is just that, skill. None of it is evil, the only thing that is evil, is certain people.

I always say to people at my work, there is nothing wrong with manager positions and power, but if a stupid person comes into power or position, look out, the whole place will be ruled by hell.

 

[Jollybear]

jollybear

Let us know if you see any demons. Try to get their names as well.

The two astral projections i was successfull at having i saw no demons.

However, if and when i am sucessfull again, i will surely keep a lookout for you.

Also, why would i want there names? I don't care what there names are. If i see them, all i would care about is what they want.

 

[Draupadi]

That guy never gave me the details knowing that I had inclination towards magic and I may use the knowledge . We no longer keep in touch but he had said that to get rid of those demons he pasted a bunch of protection spells, around his room, written on paper. They were probably Quranic verses.

As I have said before that the Quran has specified that certain forms of occult practices are forbidden. But I am confused whether it means that all forms are disallowed. I am a Quranist and so the Hadith has no importance for me. But Islam differentiates between Islamic magic, ruqya and non-Islamic magic, sihr. The latter is forbidden.

 

[Jollybear]

That guy never gave me the details knowing that I had inclination towards magic and I may use the knowledge . We no longer keep in touch but he had said that to get rid of those demons he pasted a bunch of protection spells, around his room, written on paper. They were probably Quranic verses.

Interesting: so…when he pasted those verses, did the demons leave?

As I have said before that the Quran has specified that certain forms of occult practices are forbidden. But I am confused whether it means that all forms are disallowed. I am a Quranist and so the Hadith has no importance for me. But Islam differentiates between Islamic magic, ruqya and non-Islamic magic, sihr. The latter is forbidden.

So, what’s the difference between Islamic magic, rugya and non Islamic magic? And why is the later forbidden in the Quran?

 

[Draupadi]

Yes he said that the demons left. Well many Muslims consider sihr as shirk (setting up patners with God). This includes asking for the help of djinns (very funny because a Muslim is allowed to go to a doctor), worshipping Satan, etc. I think all this stems from ignorance. Of course there is risk to deal with supernatural entities and this causes the fear. Ruqya on the other hand relies on Quranic verses and Islamic magical rituals so it is allowed. Many say that all forms of magic are forbidden but some does ruqya which may include unislamic Arabic occult practice (out of ignorance).

But the Quran is very specific about magic's forbidden forms. They are divination with arrows, angel Harut and Marut's magic and what the Christians and Jews called magic of Solomon's book. The last, it is said, was written by the djinns to misguide people and Prophet Solomon had nothing to do with it. His powers were just miracles from God.