Christian: The Need for a Fresh Word from God

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Angellous, I get the feeling you are labelling us as neoplatonists in order to dismiss us rather than address what we have said, which is essentially that the LDS church and our modern prophets fit the bill you have requested exactly.

I have an undergrad degree in philosophy and obviously I am also a mormon. Perhaps you could explain why you view the LDS church as neoplatonic and why that allows you to dismiss our church, and I might be able to make some half-educated response/defense.

I think he is referring to ideas that would have been thought by an ancient writer of the time of the Bible in regards to certain matters, perhaps geocentrism and creationism, just off the top of my head, that would have still been incorrectly thought to be the truth by a person of Joseph Smith's time. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

B.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Angellous, I get the feeling you are labelling us as neoplatonists in order to dismiss us rather than address what we have said, which is essentially that the LDS church and our modern prophets fit the bill you have requested exactly.

I have an undergrad degree in philosophy and obviously I am also a mormon. Perhaps you could explain why you view the LDS church as neoplatonic and why that allows you to dismiss our church, and I might be able to make some half-educated response/defense.

I'm sorry, I'm simply not interested in this right now. Reading Plato's Timaeus and comparing it with what you understand LDS theology to be may be constructive.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think he is referring to ideas that would have been thought by an ancient writer of the time of the Bible in regards to certain matters, perhaps geocentrism and creationism, just off the top of my head, that would have still been incorrectly thought to be the truth by a person of Joseph Smith's time. Or at least that's my interpretation of it.

B.

Perhaps cosmology... (Plato's Timaeus) :angel2: and the LDS fixation on the ancient family structure (eg, Plato's Republic).

 

[Vassal]

I'm currently in the third year of a phd program in New Testament, and my 11th year of study. The more I review and study the New Testament, the more I believe that it is completely and utterly insane to apply it with authority to the church today.

The New Testament is set firmly and completely in a social context that is misogynic, ethnocentric, and philosophically backward. I don't mean to argue that the present popular philosophy Western life - that there is no need for God due to existentialist realivism - is superior, but philosophy and social changes from the Enlightenment are significant progress from the blantant stupidity of Aristotle and Plato that birthed and nurished Christian theology.

I'm quite sure that if Arisotle and Plato had known about the scientific progresses made in the Enlightenment that Christianity would be much more friendly to women and homosexuals, and possibly Christianity would have had the forsight to condemn slavery and pederasty as early as the writing of the New Testament.

Anyway, the New Testament profoundly loses its worth when the presuppositions of Greek philosophy are removed, and indeed the later Christian theologies which wholesale reproduced Greek ideals are outdated and mute to contemporary issues.

It is time for a new word from God, and Christians should beg God to send modern prophets to speak fresh words of redemption and grace.

The Bible contains everything that is needed for salvation and living a life of approval from God, there is nothing else that can be said that can add to or subtract from Christianity without conflicting with the Bible. God has already told us what he expects from us, either you'll do it or you won't.

As far as the treatment women, that's the fault of humans, not God. The Bible says that everyone is equal in God's sight and that he shows no favoritism. Any bad treatment of women cannot be justified through the Bible. The Bible also says that homosexuality is an abominiation. Being homosexually immoral is no different in God's eyes than being heterosexually immoral, a theif, a lier, a murderer, a drunk, a prostitute, a slanderer, a gossip, and unbeliever, or anthing else like this. Sin is sin, and anyone who deliberatly seeks and enjoys these things is offensive to God. I've heard of some "Christian Churches" that claim homosexual is alright with God, and even some that are specifically for homosexuals, but if they really think that then they're certianly not reading the Bible.

 

[w00t]

Maybe it is time the Bible had a few more chapters to reflect modern day thinking. Why should it be locked into a 2000 year old time warp?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The Bible contains everything that is needed for salvation and living a life of approval from God, there is nothing else that can be said that can add to or subtract from Christianity without conflicting with the Bible. God has already told us what he expects from us, either you'll do it or you won't.

As far as the treatment women, that's the fault of humans, not God. The Bible says that everyone is equal in God's sight and that he shows no favoritism. Any bad treatment of women cannot be justified through the Bible. The Bible also says that homosexuality is an abominiation. Being homosexually immoral is no different in God's eyes than being heterosexually immoral, a theif, a lier, a murderer, a drunk, a prostitute, a slanderer, a gossip, and unbeliever, or anthing else like this. Sin is sin, and anyone who deliberatly seeks and enjoys these things is offensive to God. I've heard of some "Christian Churches" that claim homosexual is alright with God, and even some that are specifically for homosexuals, but if they really think that then they're certianly not reading the Bible.

I'll respond mostly to the second paragraph.

First, I'll point you to two threads of mine regarding women in the NT. In the NT, women do not love as humans, but fear as animals. The NT has been used by Christians in every century, from the first to our own, to abuse and subordinate women.

Love in the New Testament...
The low anthropology of women in the New Testament

 

[doppelganger]

When a man is always occupied with the cravings of desire and ambition, and is eagerly striving to satisfy them, all his thoughts must be mortal, and, as far as it is possible altogether to become such, he must be mortal every whit, because he has cherished his mortal part. But he who has been earnest in the love of knowledge and of true wisdom, and has exercised his intellect more than any other part of him, must have thoughts immortal and divine, if he attain truth.

-Plato, Timaeus

This reminds me a great deal of Joseph Smith:

He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things. Man was also in the abeginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation . . . The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth.

(D&C 93).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You're a braver man than I, dopp.

:biglaugh:

 

[Ringer]

Maybe it is time the Bible had a few more chapters to reflect modern day thinking. Why should it be locked into a 2000 year old time warp?

Why do people assume that modern day thinking should be held in a higher moral regard that what people thought 2000 years ago? Granted, maybe they didn't face the same issues we face today nor did they understand things from a scientific perspective as we do now but when it comes to moral truths, those things shouldn't change. If Jesus was on the earth to show us how to live an abundant, fulfilling, and morally upstanding life, why would his teachings have any less bearing in our days on this earth? Jesus said he was truth, as were his words. I guess my point is, I don't see how words written 2,000 years ago should be any less applicable to our lives. If you don't believe in those words then I guess that's a different story.

 

[xevolutionist]

I'll respond mostly to the second paragraph.

First, I'll point you to two threads of mine regarding women in the NT. In the NT, women do not love as humans, but fear as animals. The NT has been used by Christians in every century, from the first to our own, to abuse and subordinate women.

Love in the New Testament...
The low anthropology of women in the New Testament

I think it's incredible that you completely missed the sections of the New Testament where Paul says for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church, [meaning to be willing to die for them] and where Paul said we are all equal in Christ. Indeed, were it not for Christianity women probably wouldn't be voting and slavery might still be tolerated.

How on earth could you become a Baptist minister when you completely misunderstand the Bible and can't grasp simple concepts like that? Did you lie to the board or are their standards non Biblical, like "mail us fifty bucks and you too can become a ordained minister!" Church of the greedy certificate issuers, inc.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think it's incredible that you completely missed the sections of the New Testament where Paul says for husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church, [meaning to be willing to die for them] and where Paul said we are all equal in Christ. Indeed, were it not for Christianity women probably wouldn't be voting and slavery might still be tolerated.

It was Christianity that sustained slavery and fought against the women's sufferage movement.

 

[SoyLeche]

-Plato, Timaeus

This reminds me a great deal of Joseph Smith:

(D&C 93).

I know nothing about Plato, and I don't really care to learn, but I may follow this thread if it goes that direction.

About AE's OP, though, while most of the "cannonical" works of the Prophets of the latter days were given by Joseph Smith, it must be remembered we believe that Prophets continue to live today. Joseph Smith was as much a product of his generation as Paul was. If you want to hear what a Prophet of today's generation sounds like you are going to have to go to a Prophet that is living today (although, seeing as he is pretty old, you'll more then likely be hearing a prophet of your grandparent's generation. Go to someone like Elder Bednar for a younger version).

I'm not sure what I'm really trying to say.

 

[doppelganger]

It was Christianity that sustained slavery and fought against the women's sufferage movement.

Actually, I think it perpetuated the women's sufferage movement. :cover:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Actually, I think it perpetuated the women's sufferage movement. :cover:

Christians were on both sides of the issue.

It's not very flattering that it took a good 1900 years after Christ...

 

[doppelganger]

About AE's OP, though, while most of the "cannonical" works of the Prophets of the latter days were given by Joseph Smith, it must be remembered we believe that Prophets continue to live today. Joseph Smith was as much a product of his generation as Paul was. If you want to hear what a Prophet of today's generation sounds like you are going to have to go to a Prophet that is living today (although, seeing as he is pretty old, you'll more then likely be hearing a prophet of your grandparent's generation. Go to someone like Elder Bednar for a younger version).

I'm aware of many prophets of today. The contemporary Mormon "prophets" appear to me to be more like political positions than what I consider a "prophet."

 

[doppelganger]

Christians were on both sides of the issue.

It's not very flattering that it took a good 1900 years after Christ...

That was a spelling joke. :faint:

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That was a spelling joke. :faint:

Ya win some, ya loose some.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I know nothing about Plato, and I don't really care to learn, but I may follow this thread if it goes that direction.

About AE's OP, though, while most of the "cannonical" works of the Prophets of the latter days were given by Joseph Smith, it must be remembered we believe that Prophets continue to live today. Joseph Smith was as much a product of his generation as Paul was. If you want to hear what a Prophet of today's generation sounds like you are going to have to go to a Prophet that is living today (although, seeing as he is pretty old, you'll more then likely be hearing a prophet of your grandparent's generation. Go to someone like Elder Bednar for a younger version).

I'm not sure what I'm really trying to say.

Way to go! :yes:

 

[doppelganger]

The OP seems much more akin to Baha'i than LDS, IMO (at least in terms of the general idea of needing ongoing prophecy to help bring meaning to "God's word" in the context of each generation and culture).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The OP seems much more akin to Baha'i than LDS, IMO (at least in terms of the general idea of needing ongoing prophecy to help bring meaning to "God's word" in the context of each generation and culture).

In my twisted thought world, I think that there is some room in Christian orthodoxy for this. In both the East and West, Holy Tradition supplements Scripture, allowing for prophesy to continue. It's taking a good long while for the Church to catch up regarding philosophy, ethics, and justice, but there certainly is potential - and some of this has been realized within orthodoxy - for a forward thinking spiritual leader to emerge within Christianity itself.