Christians: How could Earth only be 6000 years old?

[angellous_evangellous]

how do you know that the light mentioned in the second verse didnt supply them?

furthermore, the sun was placed in the firmament on the 4th day (1 day after the plant). they could survive one day.

:biglaugh:

(There's this small thing called gravity)

 

[sniper762]

what has gravity to do with plants needing sunlight?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

what has gravity to do with plants needing sunlight?

 

[sniper762]

for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

 

[waitasec]

"in the beginning the earth was covered in darkness. thats why he made light
thats just the way it was. god didnt "create" the earth as the bible erroniously translates. "formed" or "organized" is the proper translation.

his introduction of light was just one of the processes.

so, it was dark before he created light without the sun..on the 1st day
then there was the second day and the third day...which had the cycle of light and darkness vs 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
what was the purpose of having night without having created the sun...in other words why wouldn't it just stay day, since he created light without the sun?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

for god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Excellent retort.

(on topic, too)

 

[james2ko]

so, it was dark before he created light without the sun..on the 1st day then there was the second day and the third day...which had the cycle of light and darkness vs 8 God called the vault “sky.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day. what was the purpose of having night without having created the sun...in other words why wouldn't it just stay day, since he created light without the sun?

The earth, sun, moon and stars had been created in the beginning (Gen 1:1), perhaps billions of years before the first day of the renovation in Gen 1:2 (Psa 104:30). Most Hebrew scholars agree the Gen 1 account was narrated from the perspective of the surface of the earth. The light spoken of in Gen 1:3 was a clearing of the smoke and gases that encircled the earth. The light of the already existing sun and moon (Gen 1:1) was unable to shine through this blanket (Gen 1:2), until God initiated the clearing of the atmosphere (Gen 1:3-5). Enough was cleared on the first day to make the atmosphere translucent but not yet transparent. In verses 14-18, God cleared away the remainder of the atmospheric debris to make the sun and moon transparent in order to establish a system of time keeping.

 

[gnostic]

The earth, sun, moon and stars had been created in the beginning (Gen 1:1), perhaps billions of years before the first day of the renovation in Gen 1:2 (Psa 104:30). Most Hebrew scholars agree the Gen 1 account was narrated from the perspective of the surface of the earth. The light spoken of in Gen 1:3 was a clearing of the smoke and gases that encircled the earth.

There are absolutely no evidences whatsoever that the earth was cover in perpetual gases or smokes, like Jupiter and Saturn, where the sun never shine on the surface.

You are speculating, and it is totally baseless.

According to the Genesis, there were no plant life until the 3rd day. This is before the 4th day, when the sun, moon and stars were supposedly created.

I don't know what you believe, but there are some creationists who believe in 1 day equals 1 thousand years and vice versa nonsense (because of one of Peter's epistles). If there were 1000 years, between creating the plants and the sun, then how would plants even grow or survive without sunlight?

This type of creationist is just as bad those creationists believing in a literal 6-day creation.

In any case, you have to consider that the Jericho have been inhabited as far back as 11,000 years ago (or 9000 BC). That's 5000 years before the supposed Adam's creation. And during time of 10,000 to 3000 BC, known as the Neolithic period, man have stopped living in the caves due to the Ice Ages. Neolithic period is the time, particularly in the Near East, Egypt and Aegean region, when people began learning how to find other means of getting food (eg hunting and gathering): agriculture farming and animal husbandry.

How could these people grow crops if there were no sun before 4000 BC?

 

[waitasec]

The earth, sun, moon and stars had been created in the beginning (Gen 1:1), perhaps billions of years before the first day of the renovation in Gen 1:2 (Psa 104:30). Most Hebrew scholars agree the Gen 1 account was narrated from the perspective of the surface of the earth.

witnessed by whom?

The light spoken of in Gen 1:3 was a clearing of the smoke and gases that encircled the earth. The light of the already existing sun and moon (Gen 1:1) was unable to shine through this blanket (Gen 1:2), until God initiated the clearing of the atmosphere (Gen 1:3-5). Enough was cleared on the first day to make the atmosphere translucent but not yet transparent. In verses 14-18, God cleared away the remainder of the atmospheric debris to make the sun and moon transparent in order to establish a system of time keeping.

god cleared away the atmospheric debris after he created plant life?
hmmm... reaching are we?
not according to this.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. meaning the sun was the greater light
17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

so again i ask, what is the purpose of night during the first 3 cycles consisting of day and night if god didn't create the sun until the fourth day?

 

[james2ko]

witnessed by whom?

The same human being who witnessed the transitory change in evolutionary life forms

god cleared away the atmospheric debris after he created plant life?hmmm... reaching are we?not according to this.

14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. meaning the sun was the greater light 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.so again i ask, what is the purpose of night during the first 3 cycles consisting of day and night if god didn't create the sun until the fourth day?

My premise is the earth, sun, moon, and stars were already in existence prior to the start of the narrative in Gen 1:2. On the first day, the earth was so dark not even translucent light from the already existing sun and moon could pierce through the thick clouds (Gen 1:2). Similar to a bad storm where the difference between night and day is indistinguishable. In verse 3-5, God cleared enough atmospheric debris so that someone standing on the surface of the earth was able to make a distinction between day and night but not yet be able to directly see the sun and moon. Plant life could certainly survive one day in a translucent atmosphere, no?

Verses 14-18 is not describing a new creation of the sun, moon, and stars. These verses merely point out the purpose and scope of these already existing heavenly bodies. The Hebrew word for "made" in the beginning of verse 16 is "awsaw" which, in this context, means "appoint"-- denoting a state of pre-existence. What is also interesting to note is the words "he made", towards the end of vs 16, are not in the original Hebrew implicating the stars pre-existing condition.

 

[james2ko]

There are absolutely no evidences whatsoever that the earth was cover in perpetual gases or smokes, like Jupiter and Saturn, where the sun never shine on the surface.

1. Just like there is no scientific evidence proving it wasn't.

You are speculating, and it is totally baseless.

2. My speculation is based on the fact the earth, sun, moon, and stars are much older than 6,000. To which you agree

According to the Genesis, there were no plant life until the 3rd day. This is before the 4th day, when the sun, moon and stars were supposedly created.

3. These celestial bodies were already in existence, during those narratives. see post 210.

I don't know what you believe, but there are some creationists who believe in 1 day equals 1 thousand years and vice versa nonsense (because of one of Peter's epistles). If there were 1000 years, between creating the plants and the sun, then how would plants even grow or survive without sunlight?

4. I agree.

This type of creationist is just as bad those creationists believing in a literal 6-day creation.

5. The account beginning in Gen 1:2 is a renovation or renewal (Psa 104:30) not a creation from nothing. The creation of the physical universe could have occurred billions of years ago (Gen1:1)

In any case, you have to consider that the Jericho have been inhabited as far back as 11,000 years ago (or 9000 BC). That's 5000 years before the supposed Adam's creation. And during time of 10,000 to 3000 BC, known as the Neolithic period, man have stopped living in the caves due to the Ice Ages. Neolithic period is the time, particularly in the Near East, Egypt and Aegean region, when people began learning how to find other means of getting food (eg hunting and gathering): agriculture farming and animal husbandry.

6. Some Christians believe there is an unknown time gap (possibly billions of years) between Genesis 1:1 (the original perfect creation) and verse 2 (the repair/renovation). The biblical text does indicate the current state of mankind-- made in the image of God-- is approximately 6,000 years old. Although, I would not rule out the possibility there could have been prehistoric- hominid type creatures roaming the earth prior to the creation of Adam.

How could these people grow crops if there were no sun before 4000 BC?

see point #2

 

[gnostic]

2. My speculation is based on the fact the earth, sun, moon, and stars are much older than 6,000. To which you agree

This paragraph you have quoted from me, related to my 1st paragraph (which you have quoted first).

I am saying that you are speculating about the perpetual cloud of gases or smokes as being baseless, not the age of the earth.

6. Some Christians believe there is an unknown time gap (possibly billions of years) between Genesis 1:1 (the original perfect creation) and verse 2 (the repair/renovation). The biblical text does indicate the current state of mankind-- made in the image of God-- is approximately 6,000 years old. Although, I would not rule out the possibility there could have been prehistoric- hominid type creatures roaming the earth prior to the creation of Adam.

Again, you're speculating.

There are no difference found on man between 10,000 years ago and 1000 years ago. The evidences of the homo sapiens sapiens (modern man) as early as 20,000 years ago, so to me, man created in god's image is a myth. The only difference is that man 6000 years ago (4000 BC) were more technologically advanced than those 10,000 years ago (8000 BC). Man was still living in the Neolithic period, but the techniques in farming have improved more, as well as building settlements.

But the same could be said 5000 years ago (or 3000 BC) were more advanced than those living in 4000 BC. Around this time, man was able to make bronze tools, and invented writing. And true "urbanisation" or city building occurred 3200 BC in the Mesopotamia and Egypt.

In Genesis, Cain was said to have built the first city or town (Enoch), and yet Jericho have existed as permanent settlement as far back 11,000 years ago. Evidences of walls surrounding the town and a tower as early as 8000 BC.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

6. Some Christians believe there is an unknown time gap (possibly billions of years) between Genesis 1:1 (the original perfect creation) and verse 2 (the repair/renovation). The biblical text does indicate the current state of mankind-- made in the image of God-- is approximately 6,000 years old. Although, I would not rule out the possibility there could have been prehistoric- hominid type creatures roaming the earth prior to the creation of Adam.

I guess you suppose that the human settlements that are older than 4000BC are unrelated human-like hominids? Spider monkeys, perhaps?

 

[waitasec]

These verses merely point out the purpose and scope of these already existing heavenly bodies. The Hebrew word for "made" in the beginning of verse 16 is "awsaw" which, in this context, means "appoint"-- denoting a state of pre-existence. What is also interesting to note is the words "he made", towards the end of vs 16, are not in the original Hebrew implicating the stars pre-existing condition.

you are creating the context of appointing the already created sun and moon and stars
the same made in vs 16 is also used in vs 7. and, this word, asah עשה, also means...


to do, fashion, accomplish, make
(Qal)
to do, work, make, produce 1a
to do 1a
to work 1a
to deal (with) 1a
to act, act with effect, effect
to make 1a
to make 1a
to produce 1a
to prepare 1a
to make (an offering) 1a
to attend to, put in order 1a
to observe, celebrate 1a
to acquire (property) 1a
to appoint, ordain, institute 1a
to bring about 1a
to use 1a
to spend, pass

it would seem to indicate, when god says, ''let there be" god is creating it into existence...as is the case in vs 1 and in vs 14..."let there be lights..." notice, one guides the day and one guides the night....the lesser light...

My premise is the earth, sun, moon, and stars were already in existence prior to the start of the narrative in Gen 1:2. On the first day, the earth was so dark not even translucent light from the already existing sun and moon could pierce through the thick clouds (Gen 1:2). Similar to a bad storm where the difference between night and day is indistinguishable.

but your premise is not consistent with vs 16 which describes what god spoke into existence on the 4th day...god spoke into existence a greater light for the day and a lesser light for the night. furthermore, whoever wrote this account surely didn't know that the light from the moon is actually a reflection from the sun...right? therefore we now know today...there is only 1 source of light that guides both day and night...
vs 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars...stars being other suns....

each "day" was separated by what god created on that day...

In verse 3-5, God cleared enough atmospheric debris so that someone standing on the surface of the earth was able to make a distinction between day and night but not yet be able to directly see the sun and moon. Plant life could certainly survive one day in a translucent atmosphere, no?

Verses 14-18 is not describing a new creation of the sun, moon, and stars.

you are ignoring what is plainly there.
vs 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

so, in the beginning god created the heavens and the earth...
and god said let there be light...God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness...

clearly he created light without the sun
because on the 4th day in vs 14 he spoke into existence “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night"

just as in vs 3...let there be light...
i still do not see the purpose of night for the 1st 3 days... if god clearly created the sun the moon and stars on the 4th day...


so many holes to fill...
so many goal posts to move...
critical thinking need not apply.

 

[waitasec]

6. Some Christians believe there is an unknown time gap (possibly billions of years) between Genesis 1:1 (the original perfect creation) and verse 2 (the repair/renovation). The biblical text does indicate the current state of mankind-- made in the image of God-- is approximately 6,000 years old. Although, I would not rule out the possibility there could have been prehistoric- hominid type creatures roaming the earth prior to the creation of Adam.

so are you saying the suffering before that, the process of creating mankind...wasn't needless because these beings were subjected for the purpose of evolution?

you're god isn't very nice...

 

[james2ko]

This paragraph you have quoted from me, related to my 1st paragraph (which you have quoted first). I am saying that you are speculating about the perpetual cloud of gases or smokes as being baseless, not the age of the earth.
Again, you're speculating.

Of course. Are we not both speculating?

There are no difference found on man between 10,000 years ago and 1000 years ago. The evidences of the homo sapiens sapiens (modern man) as early as 20,000 years ago, so to me, man created in god's image is a myth. The only difference is that man 6000 years ago (4000 BC) were more technologically advanced than those 10,000 years ago (8000 BC). Man was still living in the Neolithic period, but the techniques in farming have improved more, as well as building settlements.

You speak from both sides of your mouth. So is there or is there not a difference in man between 10,000-1,000 years ago?

 

[sniper762]

surely moses was ignorant to astrology

 

[Witch9]

surely moses was ignorant to astrology

How surely? I thought Judaism considers that Moses lived between 1300-1200 BCE, while astrology can be traced back to the 3rd millennium BCE.

So, if Moses was adopted by the Egyptian royal family he would surely have at least been aware of astrology.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How surely? I thought Judaism considers that Moses lived between 1300-1200 BCE, while astrology can be traced back to the 3rd millennium BCE.

So, if Moses was adopted by the Egyptian royal family he would surely have at least been aware of astrology.

Yeah, I agree. People all over the world had excellent knowledge of the stars, and for quite a long time.

It makes sense because the stars help us know when the crops will grow, when to celebrate festivals, and so on.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Of course. Are we not both speculating?

Nope, just you.

(Just because you don't assent to scientific evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. But I suppose that ship has sailed.)