Christians in America

[AxisMundi]

Please tell me what document says the exact five words, "separation of church and state"?

Please tell me what document says "right to privacy".

We use the term coined by Thomas Jefferson simply because it is easier for the legal layman to understand.

Here is where that term originates...

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...

Below is a quote from Bouvier's Law Dictionary, the very first, and earliest, legal definitional source for American legal definitions. Part four states...

4. To found, recognize, confirm or admit; as, congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

As can be plainly seen, Mr. Jefferson's phrase, based on the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, is spot on. Said clause does not erect a one-way turnstile, but a wall of separation.

 

[AxisMundi]

No we read things in context. If I am wrong, I will admit it but separation of church and state is not in our constituion. Barry Lynn said firefighters cant put out fires at churches because it violates the separation of church and state.

Feel free to cite the source for Mr. Lynn's alleged comment.

Still waiting on your list of examples of Christian persecution, oppression, whatever.

 

[xkatz]

 

[Luminous]

They despise us because we are of God.

I will pray that you lose your delusions quickly...God still loves you even if you are anti-agnostic and misguided.

 

[AxisMundi]

Now Smoke, you know I come to this debate in good faith. My point is, a school should not teach religion or require prayer in classrooms, it should not ban it either. If students want to have a Bible club or Koran club after school, there should be no problem.

Hell, if students want to have a LHP club that should be OK too. I guess freedom scares people.

I want us to be more free and I believe deep down, you do too.

Why could not a Bible thumper want same sex relationships to become marriages or an Atheist stand up for a LHP club?

Here are a few snips from the Department of Education guidelines...

Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools

Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities. Among other things, students may read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, and pray or study religious materials with fellow students during recess, the lunch hour, or other noninstructional time to the same extent that they may engage in nonreligious activities. While school authorities may impose rules of order and pedagogical restrictions on student activities, they may not discriminate against student prayer or religious speech in applying such rules and restrictions

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students. Teachers may, however, take part in religious activities where the overall context makes clear that they are not participating in their official capacities. Before school or during lunch, for example, teachers may meet with other teachers for prayer or Bible study to the same extent that they may engage in other conversation or nonreligious activities. Similarly, teachers may participate in their personal capacities in privately sponsored baccalaureate ceremonies.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes it is

I like this one personally, "Despite the overwhelming number of Atheists in the general population and in powerful legislative positions, when they don't get their own way, Atheists whine that this is an anti-Atheistic country."

I thought so, but you can't never be sure with some people.

 

[Beaudreaux]

waitasec, why should we hide our faith? Why do you we have to keep it in church? I am not ashamed to be a Christian. I believe in seperation of church and state too. The state needs to keep it's nose out of the church's business. We dont want control. We want to be able to freely practice our relationship.

You should move to a country that let's you freely express your beliefs without persecution. Somewhere that let's you, say, post your thoughts about God onto the public Internet where anyone in the world can read them.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Christians in America are mercilessly persecuted. We are like Jews in Nazi Germany. They wont let us pray in the schools, they call us all kinds of names like bible thumper and holy roller and now they want to make gospel preaching a hate crime but our God will get us the victory. We have endured much for the gospel but take heart. Jesus said the world hated him and they will hate us too. The hour of his second coming is at hand and soon we will be with him in heaven. Our God is an awesome God. Amen.

When I think of the hurtful names Christians are called the lifestyle the average American Christian must endure, I just want to punch Elie Wiesel right in the mouth. He doesn't know what suffering is!

 

[Reverend Rick]

By the way, I notice that your account was created very shortly (about an hour) after the OP's last activity, and you seem to have very similar mannerisms to him. Is this a coincidence, or are you him attempting to circumvent the ban?

Good eye Doggie Dawg.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wonder if these trolls are just trying to start stuff, or if there are some that are hoping to reach out to someone. If this guy was the later, it reminds me when I was at Gamecrazy once. Me and the general manager were talking about the South Park Episode All About Mormons in detail. We didn't know it at the time, but the other guy that was working was Mormon. That happened a few years ago and I still feel bad for it because that guy was a nice guy and was cool. Only difference is that guy was someone only an ******* would ridicule their religion in front of them, whereas the troll needs to take some speech and communication courses.

 

[Kathryn]

I can't believe people are still feeding this troll.

 

[Kathryn]

As can be plainly seen, Mr. Jefferson's phrase, based on the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, is spot on. Said clause does not erect a one-way turnstile, but a wall of separation.

Since when is a wall synonomous with freedom? I think when one puts the words of the Founding Fathers into the context of their times, the state of affairs they had left behing in Europe (wars and oppression based on the intertwining of government, royalty, and state-sponsored religion), and the history of the first European settlers in America, it becomes quickly apparent that they were more concerned with the concept of freedom of religious expression, and curtailment of government interference with faith, than they were with curtailing the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems.

 

[linwood]

... it becomes quickly apparent that they were more concerned with the concept of freedom of religious expression, and curtailment of government interference with faith, than they were with curtailing the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems.

That is exactly what this wall does.

How does the establishment clause deny religious expression to a US citizen?

Where are US citizens being denied religious expression?

 

[Wotan]

Since when is a wall synonomous with freedom? I think when one puts the words of the Founding Fathers into the context of their times, the state of affairs they had left behing in Europe (wars and oppression based on the intertwining of government, royalty, and state-sponsored religion), and the history of the first European settlers in America, it becomes quickly apparent that they were more concerned with the concept of freedom of religious expression, and curtailment of government interference with faith, than they were with curtailing the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems.

Since it prevents you and your allies from telling me I must act like I believe what you believe?

Seriously. If NONE of us can impose our beliefs on others via government does that not benefit ALL of us?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Since when is a wall synonomous with freedom? I think when one puts the words of the Founding Fathers into the context of their times, the state of affairs they had left behing in Europe (wars and oppression based on the intertwining of government, royalty, and state-sponsored religion), and the history of the first European settlers in America, it becomes quickly apparent that they were more concerned with the concept of freedom of religious expression, and curtailment of government interference with faith, than they were with curtailing the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems.

I think you answered your own question.

When intertwining of religion and government leads to all the horrible consequences that you listed off, an inviolable barrier between religion and government to stop that intertwining is a key element of protecting freedom.

And I agree with you that they were mainly concerned with protecting religious expression and faith, but I think the idea of a "wall of separation" works directly toward that: in a large part, the religious persecutions from Europe that they knew of (and in some cases witnessed firsthand) grew out of the fact that one religion or one denomination was allowed to gain a position of privilege with the government. When that happened, usually all the other religions and denominations would suffer.

When no religion is allowed special privilege or benefit, then no religion can be in a position to oppress the other... hence the separation of church and state.

And I think that still holds true. For instance, I can't imagine how awful it would be for the Muslims in your country if the American "religious right" was allowed to dictate to the government they should be treated. A few generations ago, I would've had the same concern for the Catholics... and the pre-14th Amendment treatment of Mormons at the hands of state governments shows just how bad things can get when governments aren't constrained by that "wall of separation".

 

[waitasec]

Since when is a wall synonomous with freedom? I think when one puts the words of the Founding Fathers into the context of their times, the state of affairs they had left behing in Europe (wars and oppression based on the intertwining of government, royalty, and state-sponsored religion), and the history of the first European settlers in America, it becomes quickly apparent that they were more concerned with the concept of freedom of religious expression, and curtailment of government interference with faith, than they were with curtailing the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems.

Since it prevents you and your allies from telling me I must act like I believe what you believe?

Seriously. If NONE of us can impose our beliefs on others via government does that not benefit ALL of us?

now religion has become an entity with inalienable rights, go figure when the majority of this republic has been christian for 200 yrs. and now we are beginning to see how this approach to religion as an entity has to bend to the rights of the individual. not so easy for the religious right to come to terms with. but hey, "they" believe in the one true god

 

[waitasec]

That is exactly what this wall does.

How does the establishment clause deny religious expression to a US citizen?

Where are US citizens being denied religious expression?

because they can't pray in schools...

 

[tumbleweed41]

Since when is a wall synonomous with freedom? I think when one puts the words of the Founding Fathers into the context of their times, the state of affairs they had left behing in Europe (wars and oppression based on the intertwining of government, royalty, and state-sponsored religion), and the history of the first European settlers in America, it becomes quickly apparent that they were more concerned with the concept of freedom of religious expression, and curtailment of government interference with faith, than they were with curtailing the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems.

I don't understand Kathryn. Who is advocating that a wall of separation between church and state curtails the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems?

 

[AxisMundi]

Since when is a wall synonomous with freedom? I think when one puts the words of the Founding Fathers into the context of their times, the state of affairs they had left behing in Europe (wars and oppression based on the intertwining of government, royalty, and state-sponsored religion), and the history of the first European settlers in America, it becomes quickly apparent that they were more concerned with the concept of freedom of religious expression, and curtailment of government interference with faith, than they were with curtailing the freedoms of individuals to express and live their belief systems.

One cannot have a Freedom OF Religion without a Freedom FROM Religion. This is what our Founders worked into our Founding, as you yourself note above.

Say some Calvanists come along and forces some laws into place forcing you, personally, to worship as a Calvanist. This could well happen if not for The Wall of Seperation.

Our current Motto and Pledge were both replacments that were dug under that Wall using the Red Scare as a shovel and McCarthyism as the explosives.

 

[AxisMundi]

because they can't pray in schools...

Um, yes they can. :yes: