dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Publicly owned as in government. Not that the government hasn't been sold out to corporate interests, but I digress.
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Christians in America
- Thread starter his_word_is_truth
- Start date
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
They can and do. As has been just posted, have you ever seen the opening ceremony of a NASCAR race?
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Simply having people recite a religious pledge in a government setting such as a public school is a violation of both of and from religion, whether some refrain from saying "under God" or not.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
That is the perfect example of freedom OF religion. If I am offended by the waitress with the pentagram, that is MY problem, not hers.
People who think they have freedom FROM religion must believe they can walk through life not being offended. Good luck with that.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
Violating my rights!! Dadgummed Government controlled NASCAR!!
(The point being, the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause apply to Federal, State and Local governments. Not NASCAR and Wal-Mart.)
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
A forum can be a meeting place or an assembly. Any place where people are brought together for an exchange of ideas, or a presentation, event, competition, etc, etc. A public forum as I have referred to it is one that is owned by the public as taxpayers, as in government owned.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Thank you, that is what I was trying to say.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I don't know why anyone is really arguing with me - I've stated repeatedly that I am not in favor of "In God We Trust" or "Under God" being force fed to anyone by the government.
But this thread is not about just the government. It's about attitudes in general. The very idea that people would feel violated by Christmas carols over the loudspeaker at a bank - or offended by a veil on a clerk - It's ridiculous and we as a society should not cater to that level of intolerance.
But this thread is not about just the government. It's about attitudes in general. The very idea that people would feel violated by Christmas carols over the loudspeaker at a bank - or offended by a veil on a clerk - It's ridiculous and we as a society should not cater to that level of intolerance.
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
I agree. There are idiots who think they have a right against being offended or from hearing a prayer in a privately owned business.
But we do have the right to be free FROM government influence and coercion regarded any religion.
As Kathryn mentioned, "under God" and "In God we trust" are both forms of this.
And I believe having a first grader recite the pledge in class is religious coercion.
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dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Though I agree with what you say, that is not what is meant by that, freedom from religion protects people from being forced to partake in religious practices.
waitasec
Veteran Member
christmas is a tradition and it just so happens it's a christian tradition
this country has been primarily christian, however, times they are a changin'
it's not like we hear any jewish songs being heard over the loud speaker during hanukkah ...
it's because it's tradition, nothing more nothing less
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
It's because of statements like this:
However, no one is forced to say "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance in a government setting as far as I know.
The violation is having people recite in a government setting a religious pledge such as one containing "under God" in the first place.
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You don't have freedom from religion that protects you. Freedom of religion means all religions. If your religion is Atheist, you are free to practice your religion which means you cannot be forced to do anything.
Who has ever forced you to go to church or pray?
It is when people believe they have freedom from religion, they believe they can go through life free from ever seeing anything religious.
That my friend is controlling others.
When you say I cannot put up a nativity scene, you are trying to control me and my religious freedom.
If I want to stand on the street corner and pray out loud, it is my right.
If you don't want to do something that is your right.
It is when someone tries to control another, there is the problem.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Freedom from religion protects us from government leading us in religious ceremony such as in prayer in a public forum. End of story. No one is denying anyone the right to privately pray in school or pray out loud on a street corner or shout from the roof tops. No one is saying they should be able to go through life free from seeing anything that is religious, that's a misnomer.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
It just depends on where you are and how other groups celebrate their holidays. And actually there are several Hannukah songs that I hear on the radio every year during that time.
As this country becomes more diverse, I expect to witness a wider variety of acknowledgment and celebration of other holidays. In fact, I live in Texas and we have a large and growing Hispanic population. I see more and more emphasis of Mexican/Hispanic traditions, such as quincineras, and I think it's great.
However, every Christmas season I am once again irritated by our HR department's proclamation that we cannot play any Christmas music, even though MORE of our customers ask why we're not playing any music than would probably ever think of complaining if we were. I know that as a private company, our owners can do whatever they want about Christmas, and that's cool - but they are not OPPOSED to Christmas celebrating. We have decorations and we have a Christmas party - but Christmas MUSIC might offend someone???? Crazy.
Side note: as an atheist gearhead, I find this recent trend of slapping Christianity all over auto racing to be amazingly annoying.Don't be silly. They may influence a close election
If you go to a Nascar race, you will hear a prayer. Freedom from religion would be if one person could cause the prayer to be canceled because you did not want to hear it.
You know, that might not be as much about accomodationalism as about the fact that listening to the same dozen inane songs all day every day would make even a sane person lose their minds.
To go a bit further with the whole auto racing thing, at one ALMS race weekend I worked a few years back, an ice cream truck decided to park in the spectator area right next to my corner and blast a cheesy electronic version of "If You're Happy and You Know It" over and over again all day... it was loud enough that I could hear it clearly even with my earmuffs on. After a few hours, I thought I was going to snap.
My general feeling about "secular Christmas music" is kinda like that. IMO, there may be no other song quite as vile as Paul McCartney's "Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime". I wouldn't ban it in the name of "freedom from religion", but I would ban it in the name of good taste.
The only worry I have is that freedom of religion itself leaves room for quite a bit of what I'd consider theocracy. There are plenty of countries in the world where each person has individual freedom of worship, but one "state church" gets official government recognition and support, and the country's laws are required to be in line with some version of the tenets of that religion... Malta comes to mind as one example (which I only think of because I've had several Catholics tell me that it's the closest to what they'd consider to be an ideal governmental system).
I agree that "freedom from religion" isn't a right if you're talking about my "right" to walk down the street without ever seeing a cross or Star of David, or hearing any mention of God, but I do think that freedom from religion in government is absolutely necessary.
I don't have a source, but I imagine that if a school child is taught the pledge with "under God" and told by their teacher to recite it that way, then there would be considerable pressure to do what the teacher says, even if the child has the legal right to leave "under God" out.
When I was 8, they had an assembly for all the grade 3 students where the Gideons gave us all a presentation and then handed out bibles. With my teachers and principal coaxing us through the whole thing, it never even occurred to me to refuse to go to the assembly or to not take one of the bibles offered to me.
Or not bowing one's head for the invocation at a NASCAR race?
I've done that at IRL races, but I'm not sure I'm brave enough to try it at a NASCAR race.
Frankly, if I had to listen to 15 minutes of Christmas carols while I stood in line at the bank, I'd probably start thinking about finding another bank. If I had to listen to that all day in my own workplace, I'd probably start looking for another job.
This isn't because of the religious nature of the songs, though... I'd feel the same if you were pumping Celine Dion's greatest hits into the place all day long. Way too many Christmas songs and carols are deeply annoying and can't stand up to even one listening... never mind hearing them every day from Thanksgiving to Christmas.
And I know observant Christians who feel the same way - for many people, carols just get annoying. A bank deciding not to play them might not be so much about bowing to accommodationalism as it is about not driving their customer base away to competitors.
Wotan
Active Member
Wotan
Active Member
Depends on WHERE you want to put it and who PAYS for it.
You have a right to proclaim your faith. I SHOULD have the right to both ignore you AND not pay you for your speil.
dogsgod
Well-Known Member
Absolutely.