Misrepresenting another person isn't a loving or Christ-like action.
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Christians Only: The Book of Mormon
- Thread starter JesusKnowsYou
- Start date
Barry, I'll be forward here:
The best/strongest Evangelicals in the world are made through thoughtful & prayerful study of their beliefs. It's not by focusing on why you think others are wrong.
If you desire for somebody to become an Evangelical, then you must testify through word & deed of that truthfulness. Not why you think the other person is wrong.
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Hi @Barry Johnson
IF JESUS IS THE FATHER / CREATOR OF THE DEVIL, JESUS BEARS SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE EVIL HIS CREATION CREATES.
Multiple philosophers and religionists have pointed out that if God created evil, then he bears some responsibility for that evil and it's effects. Your claim that Jesus is the creator or Father of the Devil/Satan is one source of criticism of Christianity and a reason for some investigators of religion to reject Christianity.
How does your theology where Jesus is the Father (or creator) of the Devil/Satan deal with the problem of responsibility for evil?
For example, If Jesus is, as you say, the creator or Father of this absolute evil influence that has caused such oppression, and suffering over such a great deal of time, how does your theology then deal with the locus of responsibility for Jesus being the Father, or creator of that terrible evil?
Clear
σισετζσιω
IF JESUS IS THE FATHER / CREATOR OF THE DEVIL, JESUS BEARS SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE EVIL HIS CREATION CREATES.
Multiple philosophers and religionists have pointed out that if God created evil, then he bears some responsibility for that evil and it's effects. Your claim that Jesus is the creator or Father of the Devil/Satan is one source of criticism of Christianity and a reason for some investigators of religion to reject Christianity.
How does your theology where Jesus is the Father (or creator) of the Devil/Satan deal with the problem of responsibility for evil?
For example, If Jesus is, as you say, the creator or Father of this absolute evil influence that has caused such oppression, and suffering over such a great deal of time, how does your theology then deal with the locus of responsibility for Jesus being the Father, or creator of that terrible evil?
Clear
σισετζσιω
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Which verse says he created evil . Evil is not a substance.
Hi @Barry Johnson
Barry Johnson said : "Its out love we tell you . Jesus created Lucifer , hellooo !... (post #420)
Barry Johnson used Col 1:16 to support his claim that Jesus was the Father/Creator of the devil/Lucifer/Satan :
Barry Johnson said : "16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1" (post #420)
Clear asked Barry Johnson: "Multiple philosophers and religionists have pointed out that if God created evil, then he bears some responsibility for that evil and it's effects. Your claim that Jesus is the creator or Father of the Devil/Satan is one source of criticism of Christianity and a reason for some investigators of religion to reject Christianity.
How does your theology where Jesus is the Father (or creator) of the Devil/Satan deal with the problem of responsibility for evil?
For example, If Jesus is, as you say, the creator or Father of this absolute evil influence that has caused such oppression, and suffering over such a great deal of time, how does your theology then deal with the locus of responsibility for Jesus being the Father, or creator of that terrible evil?" (post #423)
Barry Johnson, the question you were asked remains unanswered :
If your personal doctrine is that Jesus is the Father/Creator of the devil then this interpretation has logical implications.j
If one creates an evil thing and looses that evil thing upon the world with understanding of the evil his creation will do, then the Father/Creator of that evil thing bears some responsibility for the evil done.
If, in your religious interpretation, you say Jesus created Satan and you interpret Col 1:16 to support your claim.
How does your interpretation, keep this Jesus, the Father/Creator of the Devil from sharing in responsibility for the evil resulting from his creation (Satan/the Devil)?
Clear
σισεσισεω
Barry Johnson said : "Its out love we tell you . Jesus created Lucifer , hellooo !... (post #420)
Barry Johnson used Col 1:16 to support his claim that Jesus was the Father/Creator of the devil/Lucifer/Satan :
Barry Johnson said : "16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1" (post #420)
Clear asked Barry Johnson: "Multiple philosophers and religionists have pointed out that if God created evil, then he bears some responsibility for that evil and it's effects. Your claim that Jesus is the creator or Father of the Devil/Satan is one source of criticism of Christianity and a reason for some investigators of religion to reject Christianity.
How does your theology where Jesus is the Father (or creator) of the Devil/Satan deal with the problem of responsibility for evil?
For example, If Jesus is, as you say, the creator or Father of this absolute evil influence that has caused such oppression, and suffering over such a great deal of time, how does your theology then deal with the locus of responsibility for Jesus being the Father, or creator of that terrible evil?" (post #423)
Barry Johnson, the question you were asked remains unanswered :
If your personal doctrine is that Jesus is the Father/Creator of the devil then this interpretation has logical implications.j
If one creates an evil thing and looses that evil thing upon the world with understanding of the evil his creation will do, then the Father/Creator of that evil thing bears some responsibility for the evil done.
If, in your religious interpretation, you say Jesus created Satan and you interpret Col 1:16 to support your claim.
How does your interpretation, keep this Jesus, the Father/Creator of the Devil from sharing in responsibility for the evil resulting from his creation (Satan/the Devil)?
Clear
σισεσισεω
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At best you might say God is responsible for giving free will . Many get angry at there parents for birthing them . Sometimes we have to man up and face facts and deal with it .
Hi @Barry Johnson
Clear said : “IF JESUS IS THE FATHER / CREATOR OF THE DEVIL, JESUS BEARS SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE EVIL HIS CREATION CREATES.
Multiple philosophers and religionists have pointed out that if God created evil, then he bears some responsibility for that evil and its effects. Your claim that Jesus is the creator or Father of the Devil/Satan is one source of criticism of Christianity and a reason for some investigators of religion to reject Christianity.
How does your theology where Jesus is the Father (or creator) of the Devil/Satan deal with the problem of responsibility for evil?
For example, If Jesus is, as you say, the creator or Father of this absolute evil influence that has caused such oppression, and suffering over such a great deal of time, how does your theology then deal with the locus of responsibility for Jesus being the Father, or creator of that terrible evil?” (post #423)
Barry Johnson said : “At best you might say God is responsible for giving free will . (post #426)
Your response doesn't help you (or anyone else) at all.
Philosophers and religionists have long ago demonstrated the illogical, irrationality of such an inadequate and naive response since it doesn’t relieve your God of responsibility for what he created.
If, in your theology, God (who created this source of evil) is Omnipotent and Omniscient, then “free will” does not excuse your God from responsibility for evil he creates and or does.
Man is not omnipotent and cannot choose all characteristics of his Child.
God IS omnipotent and could choose all characteristics of his Child he created in your model.
Man is not omniscient and cannot know the evil that will result from Fathering any specific child.
God, in your model, IS omniscient and does know the evil that will result from Fathering or creating a specific evil thing.
In your theological model, Jesus created this specific evil being and loosed him on the world to do unspeakable evils.
The Jesus you imagine in your theological model is an evil Jesus.
Avoiding the creation of such a screwed up and illogical theology as the one your model creates is one of the advantages of returning to the earliest Christianity and its doctrines.
Do you want to try again?
You claim Jesus is the Father of Lucifer (i.e. his creator).
The question still remains.
How does your personal theology free Jesus (or God) from the responsibility of Purposely Fathering / creating Lucifer, with the tendency to do unspeakable evil and the free will to cause such evil and the prior knowledge that his creation would result in unspeakable evil over great swaths of time?
Clear
σισενεακω
Clear said : “IF JESUS IS THE FATHER / CREATOR OF THE DEVIL, JESUS BEARS SOME RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE EVIL HIS CREATION CREATES.
Multiple philosophers and religionists have pointed out that if God created evil, then he bears some responsibility for that evil and its effects. Your claim that Jesus is the creator or Father of the Devil/Satan is one source of criticism of Christianity and a reason for some investigators of religion to reject Christianity.
How does your theology where Jesus is the Father (or creator) of the Devil/Satan deal with the problem of responsibility for evil?
For example, If Jesus is, as you say, the creator or Father of this absolute evil influence that has caused such oppression, and suffering over such a great deal of time, how does your theology then deal with the locus of responsibility for Jesus being the Father, or creator of that terrible evil?” (post #423)
Barry Johnson said : “At best you might say God is responsible for giving free will . (post #426)
Your response doesn't help you (or anyone else) at all.
Philosophers and religionists have long ago demonstrated the illogical, irrationality of such an inadequate and naive response since it doesn’t relieve your God of responsibility for what he created.
If, in your theology, God (who created this source of evil) is Omnipotent and Omniscient, then “free will” does not excuse your God from responsibility for evil he creates and or does.
Man is not omnipotent and cannot choose all characteristics of his Child.
God IS omnipotent and could choose all characteristics of his Child he created in your model.
Man is not omniscient and cannot know the evil that will result from Fathering any specific child.
God, in your model, IS omniscient and does know the evil that will result from Fathering or creating a specific evil thing.
In your theological model, Jesus created this specific evil being and loosed him on the world to do unspeakable evils.
The Jesus you imagine in your theological model is an evil Jesus.
Avoiding the creation of such a screwed up and illogical theology as the one your model creates is one of the advantages of returning to the earliest Christianity and its doctrines.
Do you want to try again?
You claim Jesus is the Father of Lucifer (i.e. his creator).
The question still remains.
How does your personal theology free Jesus (or God) from the responsibility of Purposely Fathering / creating Lucifer, with the tendency to do unspeakable evil and the free will to cause such evil and the prior knowledge that his creation would result in unspeakable evil over great swaths of time?
Clear
σισενεακω
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Hi @Barry Johnson
1) THE MODERN RELIGIOUS THEORY THAT JESUS CREATED AND LOSED AN EVIL SATAN UPON THE WORD IMPLICATES JESUS IN WORLD EVIL
Barry Johnson said : "Its out love we tell you . Jesus created Lucifer , hellooo !... (post #420)
As readers have noticed, your modern doctrine and theory that Jesus created the evil that has been loosed upon the world in the form of Satan/the Devil/Lucifer implicates Jesus as a source of unspeakable evils and sins perpetrated due to Satans' influence over the eons of time the world has been inhabited.
The earlier historical doctrine where Jesus did not create Lucifer, nor was Lucifer created ex-nihilo is more rational and logical and does not have the same philosophical and rational defects as some of the later models such as Barry Johnsons' model where "Jesus created Lucifer" (post #420).
2) THE RESTORATIONAL MOVEMENT HAS ADVANTAGE IN RETAINING THE EARLIEST DOCTRINES AND INTERPRETATIONS
The takeaway message for the LDS and all other forms of restorational theists (i.e. the movements that are trying to return to the earliest and most authentic Christian base doctrines) is that the various later Christian movements and the doctrines and interpretations of sacred texts are less logical, less rational, less intuitive and have no advantage over the earliest historical doctrines and interpretations of the earliest Christian movement as described in their literature.
The advantage that the earliest Judeo-Christians had was not merely that their doctrines and interpretations were more logical and more intuitive, but their greater depth of knowledge and tradition allowed for greater understanding and a clearer picture of the origin of Lucifer and of Gods purposes and methods and fairness were in creating and maintaining this mortal experience for all of mankind.
3) THE DEVOLUTION OF LUCIFER INTO SATAN/THE DEVIL - AN EXAMPLE OF A MODERN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT VERSUS ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
For example, in response to an inquiry as to the origin of Satan, I saw a comment from a Christian who was explaining to an investigator of Christianity, the origin of Satan as a source of evil in God’s creation. The christian commented : “...there's nothing, scripturally speaking, that addresses the question of the origin of evil (or Satan, if you prefer). The only hint is in Genesis 3 where the serpent (in later tradition -- again without scriptural support -- identified as the devil) appears quite suddenly as part of an apparently very good creation. Nary a word of comment on the origins of this creature.... “
That’s it, in toto.
Such statements reveal a lack of a framework for understanding the basic issues surrounding what is going on with all of this “good” and “evil” that none of us avoid inside of creation; and demonstrate the value of turning to the earliest Christian teachings and their writings on such issues (in the period before many of the important doctrines were lost or changed). I do not believe that modern christian theory is as coherent; nor as understandable as the early Judao-Christian doctrines regarding Lucifers origins and motives for his fall from heaven.
However, I think the early christian teachings from early texts regarding the fall of Lucifer are important as such issues apply to Satan and to the principle of evil itself.
If Barry Johnson will allow us to use his modern Christian movement in another example we can show this principle by comparing Barry Johnsons modern doctrine and modern intepretation regarding the process by which Lucifer devolved from an Angel of God to an enemy of God (and the rest of us) to the early and more historical doctrines and interpretations concerning Lucifer. Most modern Christians movements have very little information regarding this process and it's history.
@Barry Johnson. Your theory is that Jesus is the Father (creator) of the devil. If I was an investigator of your Christian movement and it's religion and asked about how Satan became an enemy to Jesus (if Jesus created him) and an enemy to God and the rest of us, can describe the process and history surrounding the devolution and change in Lucifer from his creation as an angel of God and the process by which he became an enemy to God and to the rest of us (according to your Christian movement)?
thanks so much for your time and willingness to answer such basic questions regarding religion.
Clear
σιακτζειω
1) THE MODERN RELIGIOUS THEORY THAT JESUS CREATED AND LOSED AN EVIL SATAN UPON THE WORD IMPLICATES JESUS IN WORLD EVIL
Barry Johnson said : "Its out love we tell you . Jesus created Lucifer , hellooo !... (post #420)
As readers have noticed, your modern doctrine and theory that Jesus created the evil that has been loosed upon the world in the form of Satan/the Devil/Lucifer implicates Jesus as a source of unspeakable evils and sins perpetrated due to Satans' influence over the eons of time the world has been inhabited.
The earlier historical doctrine where Jesus did not create Lucifer, nor was Lucifer created ex-nihilo is more rational and logical and does not have the same philosophical and rational defects as some of the later models such as Barry Johnsons' model where "Jesus created Lucifer" (post #420).
2) THE RESTORATIONAL MOVEMENT HAS ADVANTAGE IN RETAINING THE EARLIEST DOCTRINES AND INTERPRETATIONS
The takeaway message for the LDS and all other forms of restorational theists (i.e. the movements that are trying to return to the earliest and most authentic Christian base doctrines) is that the various later Christian movements and the doctrines and interpretations of sacred texts are less logical, less rational, less intuitive and have no advantage over the earliest historical doctrines and interpretations of the earliest Christian movement as described in their literature.
The advantage that the earliest Judeo-Christians had was not merely that their doctrines and interpretations were more logical and more intuitive, but their greater depth of knowledge and tradition allowed for greater understanding and a clearer picture of the origin of Lucifer and of Gods purposes and methods and fairness were in creating and maintaining this mortal experience for all of mankind.
3) THE DEVOLUTION OF LUCIFER INTO SATAN/THE DEVIL - AN EXAMPLE OF A MODERN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT VERSUS ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
For example, in response to an inquiry as to the origin of Satan, I saw a comment from a Christian who was explaining to an investigator of Christianity, the origin of Satan as a source of evil in God’s creation. The christian commented : “...there's nothing, scripturally speaking, that addresses the question of the origin of evil (or Satan, if you prefer). The only hint is in Genesis 3 where the serpent (in later tradition -- again without scriptural support -- identified as the devil) appears quite suddenly as part of an apparently very good creation. Nary a word of comment on the origins of this creature.... “
That’s it, in toto.
Such statements reveal a lack of a framework for understanding the basic issues surrounding what is going on with all of this “good” and “evil” that none of us avoid inside of creation; and demonstrate the value of turning to the earliest Christian teachings and their writings on such issues (in the period before many of the important doctrines were lost or changed). I do not believe that modern christian theory is as coherent; nor as understandable as the early Judao-Christian doctrines regarding Lucifers origins and motives for his fall from heaven.
However, I think the early christian teachings from early texts regarding the fall of Lucifer are important as such issues apply to Satan and to the principle of evil itself.
If Barry Johnson will allow us to use his modern Christian movement in another example we can show this principle by comparing Barry Johnsons modern doctrine and modern intepretation regarding the process by which Lucifer devolved from an Angel of God to an enemy of God (and the rest of us) to the early and more historical doctrines and interpretations concerning Lucifer. Most modern Christians movements have very little information regarding this process and it's history.
@Barry Johnson. Your theory is that Jesus is the Father (creator) of the devil. If I was an investigator of your Christian movement and it's religion and asked about how Satan became an enemy to Jesus (if Jesus created him) and an enemy to God and the rest of us, can describe the process and history surrounding the devolution and change in Lucifer from his creation as an angel of God and the process by which he became an enemy to God and to the rest of us (according to your Christian movement)?
thanks so much for your time and willingness to answer such basic questions regarding religion.
Clear
σιακτζειω
God created Adam . Adam had free will . Adam didn't do well with his freewill the rest is history .
Just as Barry Johnsons' modern Christian doctrine and interpretation creates an evil Jesus (who is the Father of the devil), the modern Christian doctrines and interpretations don't just create illogical and irrational doctrines (with their terrible logical consequences), but often the modern Christian doctrines and interpretations lack a framework for understanding the basic issues surrounding basic principles.
To use Barry Johnsons' recent claim regarding the actual origin of Lucifer, modern Christian movements often lack a coherent and more complete history of evil and its influences such as the process of the angel Lucifer becoming an enemy to God. The later Christian movements often simply lack coherent historical data compared to the early Judeo-Christian religion with its richer, more historically coherent literature describing their early beliefs and interpretations. The current example has to do with the actual history behind Barry Johnsons claim that "Jesus created Lucifer" and the actual history and tradition underlying this transformation from angel to enemy of God.
THE DEVOLUTION OF LUCIFER INTO SATAN/THE DEVIL - AN EXAMPLE OF A MODERN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT VERSUS ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
Clear asked Barry Johnson : "Your theory is that Jesus is the Father (creator) of the devil. If I was an investigator of your Christian movement and it's religion and asked about how Satan became an enemy to Jesus (if Jesus created him) and an enemy to God and the rest of us, can describe the process and history surrounding the devolution and change in Lucifer from his creation as an angel of God and the process by which he became an enemy to God and to the rest of us (according to your Christian movement)?"
Cataway answered : "satan essentially made him self satan . no one made him do what he did" (Cataway, post #429)
Hi @cataway - Are you able to offer any more information than this comment so as to help an investigator of Christianity to understand the process and history whereby the angel Lucifer became an enemy to God as Satan / the devil?
Barry Johnson answered : "God created Adam . Adam had free will . Adam didn't do well with his freewill the rest is history ."
Hi @Barry Johnson - The question you were actually asked is in blue above and it concerns the process whereby Lucifer became an enemy to God.
Are you able to offer any more information than this comment so as to help an investigator of Christianity to understand the process and history whereby the angel Lucifer became an enemy to God as Satan / the devil?
Clear
σιακδρτωω
To use Barry Johnsons' recent claim regarding the actual origin of Lucifer, modern Christian movements often lack a coherent and more complete history of evil and its influences such as the process of the angel Lucifer becoming an enemy to God. The later Christian movements often simply lack coherent historical data compared to the early Judeo-Christian religion with its richer, more historically coherent literature describing their early beliefs and interpretations. The current example has to do with the actual history behind Barry Johnsons claim that "Jesus created Lucifer" and the actual history and tradition underlying this transformation from angel to enemy of God.
THE DEVOLUTION OF LUCIFER INTO SATAN/THE DEVIL - AN EXAMPLE OF A MODERN CHRISTIAN MOVEMENT VERSUS ANCIENT JUDEO-CHRISTIANITY
Clear asked Barry Johnson : "Your theory is that Jesus is the Father (creator) of the devil. If I was an investigator of your Christian movement and it's religion and asked about how Satan became an enemy to Jesus (if Jesus created him) and an enemy to God and the rest of us, can describe the process and history surrounding the devolution and change in Lucifer from his creation as an angel of God and the process by which he became an enemy to God and to the rest of us (according to your Christian movement)?"
Cataway answered : "satan essentially made him self satan . no one made him do what he did" (Cataway, post #429)
Hi @cataway - Are you able to offer any more information than this comment so as to help an investigator of Christianity to understand the process and history whereby the angel Lucifer became an enemy to God as Satan / the devil?
Barry Johnson answered : "God created Adam . Adam had free will . Adam didn't do well with his freewill the rest is history ."
Hi @Barry Johnson - The question you were actually asked is in blue above and it concerns the process whereby Lucifer became an enemy to God.
Are you able to offer any more information than this comment so as to help an investigator of Christianity to understand the process and history whereby the angel Lucifer became an enemy to God as Satan / the devil?
Clear
σιακδρτωω
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cataway
Well-Known Member
first of all his name is not lucifer . no human knows his name as it is never stated never recorded.
. The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. The name he had before this is not given. God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness. (De 32:4) Therefore, the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chaps 1, 2; Re 12:9) Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (Joh 8:44; 1Jo 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring. (Ro 5:12) Throughout the Scriptures the qualities and actions attributed to him could be attributed only to a person, not to an abstract principle of evil. It is clear that the Jews, and Jesus and his disciples, knew that Satan existed as a person.
Cataway responded :
"...the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God...he appeared in heaven in the presence of God.
...Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.”...
... Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it...
...Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God...
Hi @cataway
Thank you for your response. I thought it was a pretty thoughtful response compared to most responses on this question.
Your information tells us that Satan/Lucifer/the Devil was "a righteous creature" and later he was evil and was a manslayer and truth was not in him.
You also believe his "first overt act" was in "turning Adam and Eve away from God".
This tells us Satan was righteous and then he was evil.
The problem is that your information doesn't tell us anything about the PROCESS and MOTIVATION and REASONS why the once righteous Satan became an evil enemy to Adam and Eve and to God.
The actual question however, regarded the process by which a "righteous creature" became an "evil creature" .
Are you able to offer any information to help an investigator of Christianity to understand the reasons and motivation and process and history whereby the angel Lucifer became an enemy to God as Satan / the devil?
Clear
σιακδρακω
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cataway
Well-Known Member
i could, i'm really not inclined in giving thoughts on satan the time of day. he called into question God's right to rule over mankind .even to get some of it to him self.
Hi @cataway
Clear asked cataway : "Do you have ANYTHING at all to offer regarding the process and motivation and history surrounding his evolution from righteous angel to evil?" (post #435)
cataway responded : "i could, i'm really not inclined in giving thoughts on satan the time of day. he called into question God's right to rule over mankind ". (post #436)
cataway, this is a debate forum and you entered it with your own free will and we are not simply talking about your religion being able to tell readers about "the time of day" Satan became evil.
We are asking regarding ANYTHING your religion can tell us specifically regarding ANY of the specific situations and ANY specific process and ANY specific motive that would have affected the specific changes in Satan which caused Satan to evolve from a "righteous creature" and to turn into an "evil creature" and enemy to God.
IF your religion lacks these specific doctrines and lacks these specific interpretations and lacks this specific framework for understanding the basic issues surrounding basic principles, this is fine since that is what I have claimed. Barry Johnsons religion could not add a single thing that was relevant.
Are you sure there isn't anything your religion is able to add regarding the process whereby Satan "called into question God's right to rule over mankind. (cataway in post #436)"
A scripture from your religion?
A tradition your religion teaches?
If there is not, then we can proceed to compare the typical data that modern Christian movements are able to offer versus the data that early Judeo-Christianity was able to offer regarding these issues and see if there is advantage in returning to the earliest Christian traditions, doctrines and interpretations as the restorationist movement is attempting to do.
Clear
σιακακσεω
Clear asked cataway : "Do you have ANYTHING at all to offer regarding the process and motivation and history surrounding his evolution from righteous angel to evil?" (post #435)
cataway responded : "i could, i'm really not inclined in giving thoughts on satan the time of day. he called into question God's right to rule over mankind ". (post #436)
cataway, this is a debate forum and you entered it with your own free will and we are not simply talking about your religion being able to tell readers about "the time of day" Satan became evil.
We are asking regarding ANYTHING your religion can tell us specifically regarding ANY of the specific situations and ANY specific process and ANY specific motive that would have affected the specific changes in Satan which caused Satan to evolve from a "righteous creature" and to turn into an "evil creature" and enemy to God.
IF your religion lacks these specific doctrines and lacks these specific interpretations and lacks this specific framework for understanding the basic issues surrounding basic principles, this is fine since that is what I have claimed. Barry Johnsons religion could not add a single thing that was relevant.
Are you sure there isn't anything your religion is able to add regarding the process whereby Satan "called into question God's right to rule over mankind. (cataway in post #436)"
A scripture from your religion?
A tradition your religion teaches?
If there is not, then we can proceed to compare the typical data that modern Christian movements are able to offer versus the data that early Judeo-Christianity was able to offer regarding these issues and see if there is advantage in returning to the earliest Christian traditions, doctrines and interpretations as the restorationist movement is attempting to do.
Clear
σιακακσεω
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POST ONE OF FOUR
Hi Restorationists
Since there has not been a single post where modern Christian Theists in this thread have been able to add any significant data to describe the motives and processes whereby a righteous angel in service to God became Satan / the devil, an enemy to God, Adam and who causes such evil influence in the world against Gods plan for mankind we might as well take examples from early Christianity and their literature.
My two points are that there is a great advantage to restorational theology in any form since that is the more authentic historical form of Christian theology and there are great advantages of returning to the earliest Christian theology as opposed to Christian movements and their theology and interpretations created hundreds of years later. I am writing between appointments at work so my writing may not flow in as logical a flow. I will post now and format later today
Restorational theology has fever logical dilemnas
We first saw that Barry Johnsons modern theology that “Jesus was the Father (creator) of Lucifer” creates irrational religion and unwanted moral and philisophical consequences for that type of Christianity and can discourage individuals who are investigating Christian theology.
Restorational theology has much greater logic, historical coherence, and greater intuitiveness.
This second, current discussion regards a lack of theological framework in modern Christian movements and the advantage of returning to the earliest and most authentic form of Christianity (and any restoration of it).
I am still using Satan as an example. While the posts #429 on) demonstrate the lack of even a basic framework concerning the process whereby Satan turns from Good to evil, a comparison can be made to the rich and detailed traditional framework of ancient Judeo-Christianity (and any restoration of it).
A) THE FALL OF LUCIFER IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN-ISLAMIC TRADITION
The new and different religious doctrines and textual interpretations which characterized the many new Christian religious movements often seemed generated at the abandonment of ancient Judeo-Christian doctrines. This often created important basic doctrinal knowledge gaps in modern models.
For this and other reasons, I do not believe that modern christian theories are as rational nor as historically coherent as the ancient Christian theology.
There is a great deal of early Judeo-Christian literature describing what early Christianity taught regarding the Origin and motives of Satan.
It is important to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen suddenly nor in a contextual vacuum. That is, the “good” Lucifer didn't simply wake up in a bad mood and decide to be “evil” one morning. But instead, the changes in Lucifers attitude gradually occurred in the context of several frustrating controversies, (some more important than others). The best historically documented controversy occurred during the honoring of Adam which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan. To best understand this historical cascade of events, I think one should start with God’s original plan and consider events from there forward.
B) It is contextually important to understand that, in this ancient historical Judeo-Christian model :
1) The spirits of angels, mankind existed prior to mortality
2) God the Father’s plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of men
3) The Honoring of Adam was logical in view of his role in God’s plan for mankind
4) Lucifer’s “rebellion” was more than a refusal to “honor Adam”.
5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself
6) Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan
Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians (who wrote the texts) understood it. Without considering the nature of the rebellion, then Lucifer’s punishment and his current dominion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians understood and taught such doctrines.
C) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MAN, (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)
Long before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.
Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues : Quote: "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"
The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
Quote:“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)
The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar)
God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm.
In Enoch’s vision, the Prophet Enoch also sees the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :
Quote:"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)
It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations).
Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine : "And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)
POST TWO OF FOUR FOLLOWS
Hi Restorationists
Since there has not been a single post where modern Christian Theists in this thread have been able to add any significant data to describe the motives and processes whereby a righteous angel in service to God became Satan / the devil, an enemy to God, Adam and who causes such evil influence in the world against Gods plan for mankind we might as well take examples from early Christianity and their literature.
My two points are that there is a great advantage to restorational theology in any form since that is the more authentic historical form of Christian theology and there are great advantages of returning to the earliest Christian theology as opposed to Christian movements and their theology and interpretations created hundreds of years later. I am writing between appointments at work so my writing may not flow in as logical a flow. I will post now and format later today
Restorational theology has fever logical dilemnas
We first saw that Barry Johnsons modern theology that “Jesus was the Father (creator) of Lucifer” creates irrational religion and unwanted moral and philisophical consequences for that type of Christianity and can discourage individuals who are investigating Christian theology.
Restorational theology has much greater logic, historical coherence, and greater intuitiveness.
This second, current discussion regards a lack of theological framework in modern Christian movements and the advantage of returning to the earliest and most authentic form of Christianity (and any restoration of it).
I am still using Satan as an example. While the posts #429 on) demonstrate the lack of even a basic framework concerning the process whereby Satan turns from Good to evil, a comparison can be made to the rich and detailed traditional framework of ancient Judeo-Christianity (and any restoration of it).
A) THE FALL OF LUCIFER IN EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN-ISLAMIC TRADITION
The new and different religious doctrines and textual interpretations which characterized the many new Christian religious movements often seemed generated at the abandonment of ancient Judeo-Christian doctrines. This often created important basic doctrinal knowledge gaps in modern models.
For this and other reasons, I do not believe that modern christian theories are as rational nor as historically coherent as the ancient Christian theology.
There is a great deal of early Judeo-Christian literature describing what early Christianity taught regarding the Origin and motives of Satan.
It is important to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen suddenly nor in a contextual vacuum. That is, the “good” Lucifer didn't simply wake up in a bad mood and decide to be “evil” one morning. But instead, the changes in Lucifers attitude gradually occurred in the context of several frustrating controversies, (some more important than others). The best historically documented controversy occurred during the honoring of Adam which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan. To best understand this historical cascade of events, I think one should start with God’s original plan and consider events from there forward.
B) It is contextually important to understand that, in this ancient historical Judeo-Christian model :
1) The spirits of angels, mankind existed prior to mortality
2) God the Father’s plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of men
3) The Honoring of Adam was logical in view of his role in God’s plan for mankind
4) Lucifer’s “rebellion” was more than a refusal to “honor Adam”.
5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself
6) Lucifer’s current “dominion” plays a “role” in God’s ultimate plan
Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians (who wrote the texts) understood it. Without considering the nature of the rebellion, then Lucifer’s punishment and his current dominion cannot be understood as the ancient Christians understood and taught such doctrines.
C) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MAN, (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)
Long before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.
Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues : Quote: "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"
The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "Before all things came to be, he [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)
Quote:“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)
The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).
“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar)
God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth according to such early texts. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm.
In Enoch’s vision, the Prophet Enoch also sees the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :
Quote:"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)
It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations).
Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine : "And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)
POST TWO OF FOUR FOLLOWS
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POST TWO OF FOUR
D) DESPITE CONCERNS, THE PLAN WAS GENERALLY, RECEIVED JOYOUSLY
Ancient pre-creation histories describe that the Father’s plan, revealed to these spirits before the foundations of the earth were laid was generally joyously received.
The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw : "...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.‘
Who among these spirits would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect? This was a cause for great joy.
God’s question to Job was not merely rhetorical, but was a contextual reminder to Job of an actual occurrence.
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
The Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality : “...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “ (The zohar)
E) GOD’S PLAN CONTINUED TO PROGRESS
God’s plan for the advancement of spirits moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.
The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283).
This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : Quote: "...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).
And thus, in company with Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation. “I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).
Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.
Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.
F) THE HONORING OF ADAM AND THE REFUSAL OF LUCIFER
THE EARLY TEXTUAL CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS MAKES CLEAR THAT, IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE HONOR DUE ADAM AND HIS ROLE IN INAUGURATING THE FATHERS' PLAN THAT HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF HIS GOD. AND IT WAS PARTLY BECAUSE HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF THE LORD GOD THAT SPIRITS, ANGELS AND ALL OTHERS WERE COMMANDED BY THE LORD GOD TO HONOR ADAM.
I should also point out that the texts which render the verb "to honor" frequently render this word as "to worship". It is a sense of "honor" that is being spoken of.
It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind.
In this specific controversy, God commanded all to honor the first of mankind (Adam) and Lucifer refused.
For example: Sedrach relates : “You commanded your angels to honor Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not honor him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to honor) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)
Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says : “And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Honor the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Honor [him], lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [Isa. 14:14f]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)
This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also ISLAMIC, as confirmed by the Sixth Century Holy Quran text : "..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)
In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)
In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)
In Sura 7 : “And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)
In Sura 18 :“And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)
The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.
POST THREE OF FOUR FOLLOWS
D) DESPITE CONCERNS, THE PLAN WAS GENERALLY, RECEIVED JOYOUSLY
Ancient pre-creation histories describe that the Father’s plan, revealed to these spirits before the foundations of the earth were laid was generally joyously received.
The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw : "...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.‘
Who among these spirits would not have wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were holy, righteous and elect? This was a cause for great joy.
God’s question to Job was not merely rhetorical, but was a contextual reminder to Job of an actual occurrence.
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:4-7)
The Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality : “...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “ (The zohar)
E) GOD’S PLAN CONTINUED TO PROGRESS
God’s plan for the advancement of spirits moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.
The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..” God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283).
This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : Quote: "...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).
And thus, in company with Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation. “I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).
Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.
Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.
F) THE HONORING OF ADAM AND THE REFUSAL OF LUCIFER
THE EARLY TEXTUAL CHRISTIAN TRADITIONS MAKES CLEAR THAT, IT IS PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE HONOR DUE ADAM AND HIS ROLE IN INAUGURATING THE FATHERS' PLAN THAT HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE AND LIKENESS OF HIS GOD. AND IT WAS PARTLY BECAUSE HE WAS CREATED IN THE IMAGE OF THE LORD GOD THAT SPIRITS, ANGELS AND ALL OTHERS WERE COMMANDED BY THE LORD GOD TO HONOR ADAM.
I should also point out that the texts which render the verb "to honor" frequently render this word as "to worship". It is a sense of "honor" that is being spoken of.
It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind.
In this specific controversy, God commanded all to honor the first of mankind (Adam) and Lucifer refused.
For example: Sedrach relates : “You commanded your angels to honor Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not honor him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth (to honor) the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)
Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says : “And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Honor the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I worship clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Honor [him], lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [Isa. 14:14f]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)
This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also ISLAMIC, as confirmed by the Sixth Century Holy Quran text : "..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)
In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)
In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)
In Sura 7 : “And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)
In Sura 18 :“And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)
The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.
POST THREE OF FOUR FOLLOWS
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POST THREE OF FOUR
G) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REFELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.
The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did :
When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that “There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan. Such fallen angels were told “judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.
The jewish Haggadah describes the “wary reluctance” some souls experienced to leave a pre-mortal “heaven” to be born into mortality. Speaking this sort of “reluctance” the Zohar describes how God, tells a spirit to “Go now, descend into this and that place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
Such “unconfidence” is not “rebellion” and such souls are given encouragement and still sent into mortality through birth according to God’s plan.
Such references hint of the other controversies and together, they offer a coherent history regarding such related controversies and their relationship to Lucifers Fall.
Regarding the current Controversy with Adam :
The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates :“And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to honor him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not honor him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."
Jewish aggadah also relates : “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)
The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".
2nd Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : “ the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
This aggadic summary illuminates the growing anger in an envious Lucifer. This aggadic text goes on to relate a subsequent battle of wits between the spirits of Lucifer and Adam which leaves Lucifer publicly upstaged and discontented and frustrated. Much like the one-sided debates we sometimes see on this public forum when a poster loses face. How would an envious, upstaged and angry Lucifer be expected to react? Especially given that “the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it.” 2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1;
As the earth was created and it’s preparations finished and the time arrived for God’s plan to be inaugurated, the mood among the hosts of heaven becomes one of anticipation and excitement. It is under these circumstance that the body for Adam is created and joined to his spirit and God commanded that Adam was to be honored for his role in inaugurating God’s plan upon the earth. Michael calls all the angels to honor Adam for what he is about to do. A seemingly “fed up” Lucifer arrives to the occasion with a bad attitude.
As I’ve pointed out, there are many, many confirming versions of this same story. In these early christian texts, the anger and frustration of Lucifer does not remain a private gripe, but becomes an open rebellion.
”... one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. 5 And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.” (2nd Enoch 29:3-5)
The Book of John the evangelist confirms Satan’s presumption in similar language “He set his seat above the clouds of heaven”. Bartholemew records this occurrence in almost the same words as the other versions : “I will set my throne over against his throne” (bar 4:55) ;
The LDS and all other restorationist Christian movements will also recognize this is the period of time in which other controversies arose which culminated in this war in heaven. Non-restoration movements will not be able to plug into this entire history. This is another great advantage of historical restorational Christian theology.
It is for carrying out the actual plan and organized attempt to “set up [his] throne above the stars of heaven and ..be like the Most High” that Lucifer was punished. (“Stars” was a euphamism for the greatest angels). Speaking of Lucifer and the angels who allied with him the ancient psalm read : “Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they.... (The Coptic Psalm-book - Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete) Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) p 328; )
This attempted “coup” would have divided heaven and created a rival Kingship over a rival group in heaven. It was an attempt to set up a rival administration with it’s own rival plan for man. This was no mere show of minor “disloyalty”. Also, one should note the doctrine that the father delegated the successful battle which overcame Lucifer “through the Word” (who was his son). The earthly Devil had undergone multiple prior perceived offenses as the pre-mortal Lucifer. AND, his memories of pre-mortal happenings were not “veiled” from him, as Adams were. Certain battle lines were drawn long, long ago.
It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said : And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, (Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)
It’s unnecessary to the purpose of this exposition to discussed the symbolism of Lucifer’s apparel, his armor, and the “names” which were written in his hand (as the christian Abbaton also describes in greater detail), but it’s apparent that Lucifer unwillingly undergoes a ritual removal of his powers and authorities and authority for leadership and, with those angels who took part in his planned rebellion, he is cast down into the earth. However, such histories lend sense and context and confirmation to other histories such as Apocalypse of abraham when Azaz’el is told regarding Abraham “...shame on you Azazel! For Abraham’s portion is in heaven, and yours is on earth, for you have selected here, (and) become enamored of the dwelling place of your blemish. .... For behold, the garment which in heaven was formerly yours has been set aside for him, and the corruption which was on him has gone over to you.” (The Apocalypse of Abraham 13: 4,5,7-14)
Once Lucifer finds himself and his fallen angels on the earth, his own recognition and understanding and sense of what he had done increased, but this recognition was not associated with remorse nor repentance, but rather with an obstinate resolve and desire and plan for revenge (and other motives) and for continuing his rebellion.
“..he fled from heaven; Sotona, because his name was satanail. 5 In this way he became different from the angels. His nature did not change, (but) his thought did, since his consciousness of righteous and sinful things changed. And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam." (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
It is in such a context that later, the fallen Lucifer later explained to the fallen Adam the source of Lucifers' enmity towards Adam (who could not remember events prior to mortality) : ..Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ .... When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. And Michael asserted, ‘Worship the image of God. But if now you will not worship, the Lord God will be wrathful with you.’ And I said, ‘If he be wrathful with me, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven and will be like the Most High.” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3)
POST FOUR OF FOUR FOLLOWS
G) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REFELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.
The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did :
When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that “There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan. Such fallen angels were told “judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.
The jewish Haggadah describes the “wary reluctance” some souls experienced to leave a pre-mortal “heaven” to be born into mortality. Speaking this sort of “reluctance” the Zohar describes how God, tells a spirit to “Go now, descend into this and that place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)
Such “unconfidence” is not “rebellion” and such souls are given encouragement and still sent into mortality through birth according to God’s plan.
Such references hint of the other controversies and together, they offer a coherent history regarding such related controversies and their relationship to Lucifers Fall.
Regarding the current Controversy with Adam :
The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates :“And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to honor him. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not honor him, and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should worship me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should worship a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."
Jewish aggadah also relates : “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)
The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".
2nd Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : “ the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
This aggadic summary illuminates the growing anger in an envious Lucifer. This aggadic text goes on to relate a subsequent battle of wits between the spirits of Lucifer and Adam which leaves Lucifer publicly upstaged and discontented and frustrated. Much like the one-sided debates we sometimes see on this public forum when a poster loses face. How would an envious, upstaged and angry Lucifer be expected to react? Especially given that “the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it.” 2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1;
As the earth was created and it’s preparations finished and the time arrived for God’s plan to be inaugurated, the mood among the hosts of heaven becomes one of anticipation and excitement. It is under these circumstance that the body for Adam is created and joined to his spirit and God commanded that Adam was to be honored for his role in inaugurating God’s plan upon the earth. Michael calls all the angels to honor Adam for what he is about to do. A seemingly “fed up” Lucifer arrives to the occasion with a bad attitude.
As I’ve pointed out, there are many, many confirming versions of this same story. In these early christian texts, the anger and frustration of Lucifer does not remain a private gripe, but becomes an open rebellion.
”... one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. 5 And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.” (2nd Enoch 29:3-5)
The Book of John the evangelist confirms Satan’s presumption in similar language “He set his seat above the clouds of heaven”. Bartholemew records this occurrence in almost the same words as the other versions : “I will set my throne over against his throne” (bar 4:55) ;
The LDS and all other restorationist Christian movements will also recognize this is the period of time in which other controversies arose which culminated in this war in heaven. Non-restoration movements will not be able to plug into this entire history. This is another great advantage of historical restorational Christian theology.
It is for carrying out the actual plan and organized attempt to “set up [his] throne above the stars of heaven and ..be like the Most High” that Lucifer was punished. (“Stars” was a euphamism for the greatest angels). Speaking of Lucifer and the angels who allied with him the ancient psalm read : “Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they.... (The Coptic Psalm-book - Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete) Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11) p 328; )
This attempted “coup” would have divided heaven and created a rival Kingship over a rival group in heaven. It was an attempt to set up a rival administration with it’s own rival plan for man. This was no mere show of minor “disloyalty”. Also, one should note the doctrine that the father delegated the successful battle which overcame Lucifer “through the Word” (who was his son). The earthly Devil had undergone multiple prior perceived offenses as the pre-mortal Lucifer. AND, his memories of pre-mortal happenings were not “veiled” from him, as Adams were. Certain battle lines were drawn long, long ago.
It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said : And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, (Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)
It’s unnecessary to the purpose of this exposition to discussed the symbolism of Lucifer’s apparel, his armor, and the “names” which were written in his hand (as the christian Abbaton also describes in greater detail), but it’s apparent that Lucifer unwillingly undergoes a ritual removal of his powers and authorities and authority for leadership and, with those angels who took part in his planned rebellion, he is cast down into the earth. However, such histories lend sense and context and confirmation to other histories such as Apocalypse of abraham when Azaz’el is told regarding Abraham “...shame on you Azazel! For Abraham’s portion is in heaven, and yours is on earth, for you have selected here, (and) become enamored of the dwelling place of your blemish. .... For behold, the garment which in heaven was formerly yours has been set aside for him, and the corruption which was on him has gone over to you.” (The Apocalypse of Abraham 13: 4,5,7-14)
Once Lucifer finds himself and his fallen angels on the earth, his own recognition and understanding and sense of what he had done increased, but this recognition was not associated with remorse nor repentance, but rather with an obstinate resolve and desire and plan for revenge (and other motives) and for continuing his rebellion.
“..he fled from heaven; Sotona, because his name was satanail. 5 In this way he became different from the angels. His nature did not change, (but) his thought did, since his consciousness of righteous and sinful things changed. And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam." (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)
It is in such a context that later, the fallen Lucifer later explained to the fallen Adam the source of Lucifers' enmity towards Adam (who could not remember events prior to mortality) : ..Michael brought you and made (us) worship you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ And I answered, ‘I do not worship Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not worship one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship me.’ .... When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship him. And Michael asserted, ‘Worship the image of God. But if now you will not worship, the Lord God will be wrathful with you.’ And I said, ‘If he be wrathful with me, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven and will be like the Most High.” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3)
POST FOUR OF FOUR FOLLOWS
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