sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
When you know, you know. It’s not a head thing. When you step into your truth, it’s a very physical sensation.
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Christians Only: The Book of Mormon
- Thread starter JesusKnowsYou
- Start date
The bible and Jesus.
Yes but if it doesn't line up with the bible its not true .
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sounds as if you had a powerful experience of spiritual discernment. When you know, you know in your bones.
Yes, believer since I was a little girl.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Well, remember, the Bible is a multivalent thing. it’s much broader than just one “correct” interpretation. Plus, interpretation is all wrapped up in bias and tradition.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So, not formally educated in theology and not ordained? Which is cool — just asking.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Thanks for sharing, BTW. It helps in understanding where you’re coming from.
idea
Question Everything
Here an article to read:
Spiritual but not religious - Wikipedia
it really is the fastest growing spirituality out there, and I think if there is to be a second coming, this is the crowd that is tearing down all the organizations - religious to political - haha, at least this is what is resonating with me right now.
[GALLERY=media, 8843]Freedom by idea posted Jan 18, 2019 at 5:10 PM[/GALLERY]
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Yep. I’m in ordained ministry in a mainstream denomination which allows us great freedom in our spiritual path. I’m aware of the trends in religion. You might be aware of what has been called the “Emergent Movement,” which is sort of the “spiritual-but-not-religious” trend (although mostly decidedly Christian). I think that, if the Church is going to be saved, it’s going to come from this sort of movement with an emphasis on spiritual praxis and not so much on orthodoxy. we’re going to have to “let go” of a lot of the entitlement stuff, and come alongside some vastly different spiritual expressions.
idea
Question Everything
As someone who did spend decades in the Moron church, I can tell you that it is, in fact, a cult. Others who have escaped will tell you the same thing. It is a strange thing, and Mormons are not the only cult groups out there - talk to anyone from any cult, when they were in it, they did not realize they were in it. If you don't move, you don't realize the chains kind of a deal... when you escape.... wow.... it is an entire new world, and you realize that yes, it was indeed a cult.
survey from those who spent years and years in the church, then escaped:
Former member survey
↑ we all agree, it is a cult.
Are you in a cult? answer honestly.
Please indicate if you experienced (or witnessed others experiencing) any of the below during your time with the group: *
Sleep deprivation
Financial pressure or control (tithing)
Confession or sharing sessions where your disclosures were later used against you (temple recommend interviews, if failed, everyone knows you cannot attend temple)
An expectation of consulting with the group over decisions that should have been your own to make
A packed schedule, leaving you with very little free time (ask a return missionary about their schedule, ask anyone how much time they spend on their "calling")
Being inundated with teachings or long lectures, whether verbal or in writing (from seminary every morning, to long church meetings, and all the activities, and expected to constantly read and listen to talks)
A high level of self-doubt (not enough time to even think about yourself, you only think anbout the church, and how great the church is,
Lack of autonomy
Homophobia - YES
Gender discrimination (i.e. women and men not being treated as equals) - YES cannot bless, cannot baptize, cannot be bishop, cannot hold the priesthood,
Physical abuse or assault - in my family's case YES
Sexual abuse or assault - YES, learning this is more common than I originally thought.
Spiritual abuse
Emotional abuse
Monitoring of your communications- - don't read anything (including the church's own history) that they did not want you to read.
A lack of access to medical care, including for mental health - encouraged to only use LDS therapists who then report back to LDS church.
A lack of access to full educational opportunities - YES - again, only "church" material is accepted for use. Anything - evidence - against the church - you are supposed to ignore.
Rules around what media you were allowed to consume - YES
Expectations around what you should wear, even in your spare time - funny underwear? YES.
Negative impacts on family relationships - YES, anyone in family who is not "Mormon" is shunned, excommunicated, disfellowshipped - you are not to talk with them, or spend time with them, HUGE pressure to have everyone in family conform (you cannot get to Mormon heaven unless everyone in your family is Mormon)
Restrictions around personal friendships and relationships - YES - keep you soooo busy you only have time for those in the church.
A belief that those outside the group could not be fully trusted - YES as you can see how I have been treated in this thread.
Strict expectations around parenting decisions - YES - others will take your kids from you, they become the mother and the father and the grandparents, the Bishop is the new "Father" of your kids. If you do not indoctrinate your kids, you are shunned.
Demonising of those who had left the group
An understanding from leaders that the group was being persecuted (handcart company = poor decisions from leaders that killed everyone, WORST pioneer trip in American history, people died, not prepared, (and no, they were not "forced" out, it was pure bad leadership).... not persecution - townspeople rejecting polygamy and trying to protect their children from being child brides is NOT persecution.
Not feeling able to ask questions of leadership - YES, to question is "losing faith"... (others questioning other religious groups is great, but do not question the Mormon church...)
An understanding that your group was the only one with access to the truth - YES
A charismatic leader or leadership - YES - it is called "grooming"
In-group language (i.e. terms only understood by those within the group) - YES
*CULT? YES
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But if it had not been supported by the bible it would have not mattered .
Mormon or Christian?
Christian of the “Mormon” variety.
I’ve never been a Protestant Christian due to theological disagreements.
Wasn't that Joseph smiths claim also ? My inquiry was if it was true or not . Not ' christendom , not Christians , not churches ,not denominations, but the bible and the claims of Jesus .If you stick to just that all other truth claims / religions / philosophies/ claims from ' modern day Prophets ect all fall away and the bible proves them wrong everytime .
Jesus is the center to everything, including my faith. And yes, I do indeed believe the Bible is scripture and regularly study it.
All of the supposed “contradictions with the Bible” I don’t find to hold up, and usually are just a disagreement with one tradition’s interpretation of scripture.
People love to argue denomination stuff, including “anti cult”. I acknowledge thier relationship with Christ, but me likewise having one usually isn’t good enough for them and they want to add a bunch of stuff.
As to modern day prophets: i don’t worship Joseph Smith at all, and actually get really annoyed with how much anti-folks want to focus on him instead of Christ.
As to specific beliefs: as I said ealier, actual LDS Christian beliefs are very different than what you find commonly described in “anti cult” materials. So there’s a lot I could go into here separating fact from fiction. And will have to wait until tomorrow when I’m on a computer rather than on my phone.
Ok in response do you affirm these beliefs. From Lds.org
Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior’s Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37–38). Those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority have been conditionally saved from sin. In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual’s continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God (see 2 Peter 2:20–22).
Individuals cannot be saved in their sins; they cannot receive unconditional salvation simply by declaring a belief in Christ with the understanding that they will inevitably commit sins throughout the rest of their lives (see Alma 11:36–37). However, through the grace of God, all can be saved from their sins (see 2 Nephi 25:23; Helaman 5:10–11) as they repent and follow Jesus Christ.
Being Born Again. The principle of spiritual rebirth appears frequently in the scriptures. The New Testament contains Jesus’s teaching that everyone must be “born again” and that those who are not “born of water and of the Spirit … cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5). This teaching is affirmed in the Book of Mormon: “All mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; and thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God” (Mosiah 27:25–26).
This rebirth occurs as individuals are baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It comes as a result of a willingness “to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days” (Mosiah 5:5). Through this process, their “hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, [they] are born of him” (Mosiah 5:7). All who have truly repented, been baptized, have received the gift of the Holy Ghost, have made the covenant to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, and have felt His influence in their lives, can say that they have been born again. That rebirth can be renewed each Sabbath when they partake of the sacrament.
??
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I believe it would have. Not all Christian experience is in the Bible.
Thank you for highlighting why in theology it's important to ask what is believed, versus trying to stumble about it just by yourself. Stumbling about it by yourself usually results in misunderstanding because you're bringing assumptions which may don't apply to another belief system. This is true for doing any interfaith comparison.
A few things to state here at the beginning so I don't have to repeat again and again:
- For short-hand during this post I'm going to refer to your faith as "Evangelical" and mine as "LDS". Labels are flawed and I dislike using them, but the short hand is useful here.
- I respect your right to belief what you believe (saying that just once, but applies to the whole discussion).
- My beliefs are held as the product of long intensive study and prayer.
- If you want me to cite stuff at any point, just ask.
Ok, Sub-topic #1: Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS):
- This is a non-essential belief that is only held by a sub-section of Evangelicals. It's in no way a requirement for salvation or Christianity as a whole.
- No, LDS are not Evangelicals.
- No, LDS Christians don't believe OSAS. I passionately don't believe OSAS.
Sub-topic #2: Evangelical Day 1 focus vs LDS full journey focus.
- This is a underlying big-picture topic that causes a lot of mutual confusion between Evangelicals and LDS.
- Evangelicals mentally divide a disciples journey into two parts: justification & sanctification, the first being Day #1 of a disciples journey and the latter every day past then. There's a HUGE focus on just that Day #1 and the initial "I believe". Day 2 and onward should be done (like a believer should be baptized) but that tends to get much less spotlight in these discussions.
- LDS don't divide a disciple's journey up this way, instead generally talk about the whole journey. For Day #1 it is indeed about faith, but the journey doesn't end there. This is illustrated very clearly in the Fourth Article of Faith: "4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ <Jane commentary: see that's Day 1 and the foundation. Everything after this is Day 2 and onward>; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost". Yes, LDS Christians do hold that a believer should be baptized.
- What happens when people don't take the time to understand this difference in approach? LDS walk away thinking that Evangelicals preach that actually following Christ is totally optional and it's totally ok to keep sinning all you want. Evangelicals walk away thinking LDS are trying to work their way to heaven. Both of those a MAJORLY FALSE understandings.
Its not found anywhere that contradicts the bible.