Christians...Saved By Faith Alone?

[Desert Snake]

Do you have a reference for this? Is there a list of Nazarene laws vs. the laws being followed by other Jews of the time?

No, though any thorough Biblical commentary might lisr some of the differences, and the internet provides some information.
As to the second part of your question, define 'laws', what the OP thread refers to is not a difference in belief between Judaism and Christianity in the first place.

 

[Falvlun]

a person with faith will also produce good fruits

Jesus used an illustration making the point “A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17, 18, Contemporary English Version)

a person with faith should be producing good fruit...therefore the fruit is a demonstration of the persons faith.

So there is no contradiction because if you have true faith, you will also produce good works which are motivated by that faith.

That is my understanding as well.

"Faith without works is dead." Basically, good works is evidence of faith.

Then there are a lot of two faced Christians out there. They have as much faith as the next person, but then act very non-Christian throughout the week. Having faith and living according to the commandments are two very different things.

Just because you have faith and have been "saved" doesn't mean you'll perform good deeds.

I think it's the effort that counts. And if you aren't making the effort, then that's what casts doubts upon your sincerity.

 

[Walkntune]

For me, this is a rhetorical question, but I am interested in the views of others, including non-Christians and their religious beliefs.

Saved by faith alone, or by faith + deeds (good works)?

(NASB)
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

vs.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Thus the contradiction and disagreement between Christian denominations.

This seems pretty straight forward. If you opereate in self effort to be righteous then you will be judged accordingly and if you rely on Christ and not yourself then he took your judgement.

 

[kjw47]

I believe when James taught--Faith without works is dead--he was saying--works builds up a strong living faith-- ones faith with no works is worth as much as a corpse.

 

[Walkntune]

I believe when James taught--Faith without works is dead--he was saying--works builds up a strong living faith-- ones faith with no works is worth as much as a corpse.

This emphasis is not on works but is on faith. Some profess to have faith but the actions are contrary. They just parrot what they hear from others yet have no works from a true love in Christ.Its not the works that change to build and prove the faith but its the dead faith that needs to change to a real faith and it will produce real fruits.What you truly believe in your heart will dictate your actions and not just what you confess.

 

[Shermana]

This emphasis is not on works but is on faith. Some profess to have faith but the actions are contrary. They just parrot what they hear from others yet have no works from a true love in Christ.Its not the works that change to build and prove the faith but its the dead faith that needs to change to a real faith and it will produce real fruits.What you truly believe in your heart will dictate your actions and not just what you confess.

What kinds of works specifically will be the evidence of this faith, especially in context to what James said like not just telling a poor brother to be well?

 

[Walkntune]

What kinds of works specifically will be the evidence of this faith, especially in context to what James said like not just telling a poor brother to be well?

We know we are desciples of Christ when we have love one for another.

 

[Shiranui117]

You don't think belief in Jesus matters?

I think relying on Jesus includes believing in Him.

 

[Shermana]

We know we are desciples of Christ when we have love one for another.

Define this "love" which is "evidence of the faith".

Jesus says that all the commandments "hang by" love of God and neighbor.

So thus, this form of love would be total obedience to all the commandments, which all 'hang by" love of God and neighbor.

Otherwise, you'll be hard pressed to define what "love" actually entails.

And another verse you sidestepped more than once,

1 John 5:3 "The love of God is obedience to the commandments".

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes, it's subjective, this is the basic problem with "self-improvement" Christianity. It gets watered down to motivational sayings...without context.

 

[Walkntune]

Define this "love" which is "evidence of the faith".

Jesus says that all the commandments "hang by" love of God and neighbor.

So thus, this form of love would be total obedience to all the commandments, which all 'hang by" love of God and neighbor.

Otherwise, you'll be hard pressed to define what "love" actually entails.

And another verse you sidestepped more than once,

1 John 5:3 "The love of God is obedience to the commandments".

Commandments seek a salvation of self and is self centered. Love reaches out to the salvation of others and does not seek its own. God is love. Jesus not only did not seek his own salvation but gave his life for the salvation of others.

 

[savagewind]

Commandments seek a salvation of self and is self centered. Love reaches out to the salvation of others and does not seek its own. God is love. Jesus not only did not seek his own salvation but gave his life for the salvation of others.

Right!

Mark 8:34, 35 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."

What does a person do who is afraid to lose his soul? He holds fast to all the rules believing that doing so will make him safe.

Rules are a guide. Rules are not salvation. Salvation is A Living Spirit. If rules is what saves the world, then The Living Spirit is not necessary. True?

 

[Walkntune]

Right!

Mark 8:34, 35 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."

What does a person do who is afraid to lose his soul? He holds fast to all the rules believing that doing so will make him safe.

Rules are a guide. Rules are not salvation. Salvation is A Living Spirit. If rules is what saves the world, then The Living Spirit is not necessary. True?

Great scripture and points!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

For me, this is a rhetorical question, but I am interested in the views of others, including non-Christians and their religious beliefs.

Saved by faith alone, or by faith + deeds (good works)?

Whatever is most convenient in the context and time of the people interpreting such scriptures. Basically, whatever combination of interpretations that provides legitimacy and rationalization for one's culture and behaviors.

 

[Desert Snake]

If there is no condemnation for unbelievers, (justified by works), then what are Christians being saved from?

 

[Falvlun]

If there is no condemnation for unbelievers, (justified by works), then what are Christians being saved from?

Say there is an amusement park, and you need to pay 100 kadrillion (yes, I made that up) dollars to get in. No one can pay it. But then along comes this guy named Jesus and he forks over the 100 kadrillion dollars times 6 billion, so that he has purchased a ticket for every single person on Earth to get in.

Some branches claim that you need to go up to Jesus and personally accept your ticket.

Some branches claim that you need to do stuff to impress Jesus in order to earn your ticket from him.

Some branches claim that once you really get your ticket, you will do good stuff because you have been motivated now.

And some branches claim that all that matters is the Jesus opened the doors up for everyone by purchasing those tickets.

That last one is what answers your question. Everyone got their ticket when Jesus payed the price that no one else could pay.

 

[Shermana]

Right!

Mark 8:34, 35 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it."

What does a person do who is afraid to lose his soul? He holds fast to all the rules believing that doing so will make him safe.

Rules are a guide. Rules are not salvation. Salvation is A Living Spirit. If rules is what saves the world, then The Living Spirit is not necessary. True?

What's the difference between a guide and being the salvation itself? So you're saying one doesn't have to actually follow the guide? So you can snip out 99% of what Jesus teaches while you're at it, since trying to obey Jesus would be "Trying to save your own soul"?

So when Jesus said you have to take care of your impoverished brother or you'll burn in hell, you don't really have to do that or listen to him since you'd be trying to save yourself?

What's the point in having a guide if you don't have to actually follow it and you don't believe it gets you anywhere?

If the love of God is obedience to the commandments, (1 John 5:3) are you saying you don't have to actually love God? When Jesus says if you love him you'll obey his teachings, you don't have to actually love Jesus? When Jesus tells the Rich man that the way to eternal life is to "Follow the commandments", he was just being facetecious? Why did he even tell the Rich man to sell everything and follow him?

 

[Shermana]

Say there is an amusement park, and you need to pay 100 kadrillion (yes, I made that up) dollars to get in. No one can pay it. But then along comes this guy named Jesus and he forks over the 100 kadrillion dollars times 6 billion, so that he has purchased a ticket for every single person on Earth to get in.

Some branches claim that you need to go up to Jesus and personally accept your ticket.

Some branches claim that you need to do stuff to impress Jesus in order to earn your ticket from him.

Some branches claim that once you really get your ticket, you will do good stuff because you have been motivated now.

And some branches claim that all that matters is the Jesus opened the doors up for everyone by purchasing those tickets.

That last one is what answers your question. Everyone got their ticket when Jesus payed the price that no one else could pay.

So what's the point of actually listening to Jesus? He says things like you must take care of your impoverished brother or you'll burn in hell. By the last one, everyone gets in regardless of what he actually says. What a trickster that Jesus that is, saying a bunch of things like "Cut off your hand" if it causes you to enter the fire or "Be afraid of him who can destroy both body and soul in hellfire", just do whatever you want, he was just kidding. As long as you claim to believe in him as lord of course. Oh wait, he said the doers of Lawlessness and those who don't do the WIll of God will be rejected. But then again, the will of God is just to call him Lord and believe he saved you, right?

 

[Falvlun]

So what's the point of actually listening to Jesus? He says things like you must take care of your impoverished brother or you'll burn in hell. By the last one, everyone gets in regardless of what he actually says. What a trickster that Jesus that is, saying a bunch of things like "Cut off your hand" if it causes you to enter the fire or "Be afraid of him who can destroy both body and soul in hellfire", just do whatever you want, he was just kidding. As long as you claim to believe in him as lord of course. Oh wait, he said the doers of Lawlessness and those who don't do the WIll of God will be rejected. But then again, the will of God is just to call him Lord and believe he saved you, right?

It depends which scenario you believe in.

Apparently, you prefer the "Do the good stuff, then Jesus will give you your ticket" ideology.

I personally subscribed (I am no longer a Christian) to the "doing good things, and attempting to follow Jesus' example, is evidence that you have accepted Jesus' ticket" ideology. The deeds aren't what get you in-- Jesus did that-- but the deeds show that you have the ticket, and are evidence that you accepted it in good faith.

 

[Shermana]

It depends which scenario you believe in.

Apparently, you prefer the "Do the good stuff, then Jesus will give you your ticket" ideology.

I personally subscribed (I am no longer a Christian) to the "doing good things, and attempting to follow Jesus' example, is evidence that you have accepted Jesus' ticket" ideology. The deeds aren't what get you in-- Jesus did that-- but the deeds show that you have the ticket, and are evidence that you accepted it in good faith.

Well there's a reason I follow that "ideology", it's because its what the text actually says. The idea that deeds are just what follow if you accept Jesus does not appear anywhere in scripture, and in a way goes against what Jesus says such as the examples I brought up. The way I see it (and many others), you have to snip out 99% of what Jesus says especially the parables to get anything close to the idea that your works are what "show you have the ticket". Jesus says the only ones who are saved are those who "endure until the end".

So how can you have the ticket if you haven't endured until the end?

Now I know that anyone can say "Well my idea is what the text says", but it's pretty hard to read the examples I bring up in any other light. In order to follow Jesus's teachings, you have to listen to all the things he says about how your behavior is in fact the determination of whether you get that golden ticket or if you go to H E double hockey sticks. In Matthew 25, he flat out says if you don't help your poor brothers, it's hellfire for you. That issue gets sidestepped virtually every time I bring this up with a "Gracer".

And with that said, even Paul, whom is cherry picked to death by the "saved by grace" theology, says that if you unrepentantly sin, you don't inherit the Kingdom. So obviously, in order to accept Jesus's examples, you must still earn the "points" by actually following his example. 1 John says basically just that, he who claims to know Christ but follow his example.

Thus, having the mindset is only step one. Having this mindset however is ONLY step one, you can't get the ticket with only step one. Thus, the deeds that apparently come from this example you claim to follow are in fact the determination. Having the wrong understanding of what it means to follow this example, even if you have the mindset to follow his example in whatever way you perceive it to be, will result in insufficient "points" to earn that ticket, and may even earn you negative points.