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Christians...Saved By Faith Alone?

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I don't think she was judging if someone is saved or not, but more that we can usually discern when people aren't following the commands to the best of their ability- especially when we know the person very well. Only God knows who is truly saved- that is a given.


Nope, the verse is clear. Judge not.

Your just making excuses to judge people, that's pretty sad
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Nope, the verse is clear. Judge not.

Your just making excuses to judge people, that's pretty sad

That is not what I am saying. If you see it that way, I don't really think I can tell you otherwise. :facepalm:
Let's take religion out of it- if a man says "I love animals" and turns around a tortures dogs- it is a safe bet that he is not an animal lover. That is NOT judging, that is making an observation.
You clearly don't understand what judging truly is. Most people don't seem to.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Nope, the verse is clear. Judge not.

Your just making excuses to judge people, that's pretty sad

It doesn't say NOT TO JUDGE. It says that we will be judged by how we judge others. Reading only part of an idea is not a very good way to study any book including the Bible.

Here is the whole thought:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
That is not what I am saying. If you see it that way, I don't really think I can tell you otherwise. :facepalm:
Let's take religion out of it- if a man says "I love animals" and turns around a tortures dogs- it is a safe bet that he is not an animal lover. That is NOT judging, that is making an observation.
You clearly don't understand what judging truly is. Most people don't seem to.


You have presented a good example above similar to an example given in the scriptures: If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21

I
t is true that ultimately only God can actually know a person's heart and motives and make judgment as to their eternal destination, it is humanly possibleto observe someone's actions and determine whether they line up with their words, as you have already pointed out.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
a person with faith will also produce good fruits

Jesus used an illustration making the point “A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17, 18, Contemporary English Version)

a person with faith should be producing good fruit...therefore the fruit is a demonstration of the persons faith.

So there is no contradiction because if you have true faith, you will also produce good works which are motivated by that faith.

Faith in what? Having faith alone doesn't automatically = behaving in a way society deems proper or nice. How do you even bridge those two?

There are many serial killers who have amazing faith, so much that they follow through with "God" tells them(Or they think God tells them) and go on a murdering rampage. Mass genocides were happening from people with lots of faith in the old testament. The Salem Witch Trials were brought on by people with a whole lot of faith and the Phelps family produces mass anguish for people mourning their own dead with all that faith.

There is no faith to good works connection. You are assuming your belief is good to make that connection and answering, "My faith is good" doesn't work because guess what? Every religion thinks they are good, but I am sure you may not agree.
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
You have presented a good example above similar to an example given in the scriptures: If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also. 1 John 4:20-21

I
t is true that ultimately only God can actually know a person's heart and motives and make judgment as to their eternal destination, it is humanly possibleto observe someone's actions and determine whether they line up with their words, as you have already pointed out.

Luke 13:26 - If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

One person ignores your verse and follows mine and one person ignores my verse and follows yours. They both have faith. Which one demonstrates he is a "true" Christian?
 

Blackdog22

Well-Known Member
It doesn't say NOT TO JUDGE. It says that we will be judged by how we judge others. Reading only part of an idea is not a very good way to study any book including the Bible.

Here is the whole thought:

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Humans naturally judge. Its instinctual even if you aren't aware you are judging someone you are. It is part of our human psyche, and to deny that you judge is to pretend you aren't human.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It is really unfortunate that mortals try to tell others they are in a saved position--a mortal doesnt have a clue as to who will be saved--Jesus taught--One must endure till the end to be saved-- not to say one isnt in a saved position along the race to the end, but no other mortal knows who or who isnt in that position. And by telling others, they are actually trying to elevate themselves into Gods position. That isnt going to work out very well for them. So then its obvious those teachers do not have a clue--RUN
I couldn't agree more. I don't believe I have ever once in my life told anybody that he or she "isn't saved." How presumptuous can a human being get anyway? I, too, believe that it is he who endures to the end who will be saved. Furthermore, as Mother Teresa stated... "For you see, in the end, it is between you and God. It never was between you and them anyway."
 
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Shermana

Heretic
don't believe I have ever once in my life told anybody that he or she "isn't saved." How presumptuous can a human being get anyway?

Not so presumptous at all, Jesus is specific that only those who endure to the end will be saved.

You yourself understand this when you say:


I, too, believe that it is he who endures to the end who will be saved

So how can you possibly think its presumptious to say that someone isn't already saved? How presumptious to assume they're being presumptious for merely believing what the text says and not going by something the text doesn't say, no?

Thus, it's quite unscriptural to presume you are saved when the text itself says that no one is saved until the very end and only if they have persevered. Paul himself says that one must "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling", and while that ambiguous verse may have a variety of interpretations, the plain reading indicates that believers are not already saved but must work to achieve it even after claiming to believe in Christ.

The notion that one is already saved is an entirely recent post-Lutheran concept.

When Joan of Arc was put on trial, she was asked whether she knew she was saved. Her answer was "I don't know", and that was the correct answer they were looking for. For the grand majority of its history, Christianity did not include any notion of "knowing you are saved".
 
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MadJW

New Member
FIRST, you must determine what a real "Christian" is?
Many THOUSANDS of denominations in Churchianity- most ENTIRE fallacies!
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
So how can you possibly think its presumptious to say that someone isn't already saved? How presumptious to assume they're being presumptious for merely believing what the text says and not going by something the text doesn't say, no?
My sole intention in making the statement I did was to clarify that it is up to God to say who is and who is not saved. Not one of us has the right, and when we think we do, we are being presumptuous. I apologize if I did not make myself clear.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
FIRST, you must determine what a real "Christian" is?
No, you really don't need to determine that at all. All you really need to determine is if you're a real Christian.

Many THOUSANDS of denominations in Churchianity- most ENTIRE fallacies!
True. On the other hand, it is entirely possible to be a true Christian and yet belong to a denomination which contains some errors in doctrines.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
I can't believe you said what you just said!

Huh? I meant that changing the meaning of the verse around was wrong, that wasn't a reference to anyone.

The verse is clear, only a misinterpretation can confuse that meaning. sorry.


"Judge not".....
is the main statement here, it's a commandment, twisting the proceeding explanation around to suit your needs is changing the meaning of Scripture.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Huh? I meant that changing the meaning of the verse around was wrong, that wasn't a reference to anyone.

The verse is clear, only a misinterpretation can confuse that meaning. sorry.


"Judge not".....
is the main statement here, it's a commandment, twisting the proceeding explanation around to suit your needs is changing the meaning of Scripture.
Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
FIRST, you must determine what a real "Christian" is?
Many THOUSANDS of denominations in Churchianity- most ENTIRE fallacies!



A real Christian?

"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us." "Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you." Luke 9:49,50

I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward. Mark 9:41


According to these Biblical passages one does not have to adopt the "true" Christian doctrine or gather to the "true" Christian group to be saved by faith.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I don't think anyone has said that we are able to say "that person isn't saved", I think we've all been clear that only God can make that judgment. What was said was that doubts can be put into our heads about certain people. I would never say to someone "You are not a true Christian"- I would never want to make that assumption. That is condemnation. If we condemn, then we are condemned.

About judging- although Jesus didn't actually tell us we can't judge at all, He did say that we have to careful about how we judge- which, to me, is the meaning of what He said. Since none of us is perfect, then we do need to be careful about how we judge others. We all judge- we judge whether or not we want to be a close friend to someone, whether we can trust someone with a secret, and minor things of that nature. If someone judges another person for being a drug addict and the person is an alcoholic, then that would be an example of how we are not supposed to judge.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I have never heard anyone say they personally know who is saved and who is not saved. But I have often heard it said that if a person does not accept a certain tenet they will not be saved.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
FIRST, you must determine what a real "Christian" is?
Many THOUSANDS of denominations in Churchianity- most ENTIRE fallacies!

I think there are less fallacies in the various denominations than we think. Following Jesus' commands is the main thing. The differences are sometimes minor: 1. How a person should be baptized- sprinkling, full body immersion, etc. 2. How often we should have communion. 3. Whether we can drink at all or a little. (some denominations drink wine while others drink grape juice (new wine) 4. Whether we can dance or not. 5. Etc.

A Christian is a person who follows Jesus' commands. "He is not against me is for me".
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
I don't think she was judging if someone is saved or not, but more that we can usually discern when people aren't following the commands to the best of their ability- especially when we know the person very well. Only God knows who is truly saved- that is a given.



I wasnt referring to her, i was referring to certain mortals in teaching( clergy) positions that tell others they are saved.
 
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