Christians...Saved By Faith Alone?

[Walkntune]

Actually, the whole idea of "faith vs. works" didn't exist before the 1500's in Western Christianity. In Eastern Christianity (which has a better track record of sticking to its guns and not changing the faith or its perspective thereof), there is no such thing as "faith vs. works." It's either "faith and works," or, more simply/correctly, "living the faith."

I think the issue lies in what are works of faith. Works of faith are not a self serving plan to seek out ones own life and salvation.
When we truly come to understand the saving grace of Jesus and put our trust in this faith, then we stand in a confidence knowing that our salvation is solely based in the provision of God and his sacrifice and not that of our own performance. As we recognise this we learn to die to ourselves no longer self seeking for our own life and salvation and focus on a love and conviction from Christ that is not self serving but has all of the best interests of the kingdom at heart.This is true love and the true Gospel. This is doing the true will of God that none should perish.We become a true branch from the vine.
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

 

[Shermana]

I will answer this with soomething I wrote.

What is sin? It is self effort or not in faith with Gods provision. What is grace? It is unmerited favor or favor that is not from self effort. To stay away from sin by your own efforts to be right with God is the most deceptive sin of all and is that of self righteousness and operating in the knowledge of good and evil..We must be solely dependant on Gods grace for justification. Any offering that comes from self effort( like that of Cains representing self effort as we know the curse on the ground was that man would have to work by the sweat of his brow as in self effort and Cains offering was fruit from the ground) is very displeasing to the Lord. Grace is all you have to stand in or else you fall back in self effort.Its not your actions good or bad that justify but its whether you are relying on your self efforts or trusting in God's provisions.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
We just believe on this rock of who Christ is and fountains of living water will flow. There is no need to strike this rock as Moses did with a staff(add self effort)to get the water to flow. This unbelief cost Moses the entering of the promised land.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Only Believe!
The goodness of the Lord leads one to repentance and not repentance that leads one to the goodness of the Lord.The subtle difference is whos effort you operate in.No need to search yourself for sins to repent of in order to recieve from God.
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Just believe and recieve from God and then he will reveal what is in your heart and renew your mind. Lets give God all of the work so he can have all of the glory!

No, Paul specifically lists people who won't inherit the Kingdom like Angry people, drunkards, the sexually immoral, etc. That goes completely against what you're saying. Have you read Galatians? Even Paul goes directly against your Theology:

Galatians 5:

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

So Paul says that those who commit certain behaviors which we shall call "sins" (which is much different than your definition) will not inherit the Kingdom. There's no way you can reconcile what you're saying with what Paul's saying.

 

[Walkntune]

No, Paul specifically lists people who won't inherit the Kingdom like Angry people, drunkards, the sexually immoral, etc. That goes completely against what you're saying. Have you read Galatians? Even Paul goes directly against your Theology:

Galatians 5:
So Paul says that those who commit certain behaviors which we shall call "sins" (which is much different than your definition) will not inherit the Kingdom. There's no way you can reconcile what you're saying with what Paul's saying.

First to address your issues with Paul and sin. I know that its the goodness of the Lord that brings one to repentance and not that of law and self effort.God changes the heart and then the actions follow, Those who continue in sin have not had a change of heart.
It seems you are the one failing to read Galatians and how it addresses the law.
Galatians 3
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

 

[Shermana]

First to address your issues with Paul and sin. I know that its the goodness of the Lord that brings one to repentance and not that of law and self effort.God changes the heart and then the actions follow, Those who continue in sin have not had a change of heart.
It seems you are the one failing to read Galatians and how it addresses the law.
Galatians 3
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

1. I don't go by Galatians. You do.

2. The Law has nothing to do with the subject except for the overlap with sexual immorality, witchcraft, etc.

3. You're avoiding the actual issue of Galatians 5 and how it totally goes against what you're saying by bringing in a completely different subject that is not related to anything I've mentioned here.

4. Why would some Christians have a "change of heart" and others wouldn't, according to your logic? Since it obviously can't be a person's freewill and will power in your logic, why is God deliberately stopping other people from avoiding these actions which cause them to not inherit the Kingdom?

5. The definition of "Sin" according to 1 John, is "Lawlessness", and in context to the rest of the epistle, and the meaning of the word as applied in Matthew, most likely means "breaking the commandments".

 

[Walkntune]

1. I don't go by Galatians. You do.

2. The Law has nothing to do with the subject except for the overlap with sexual immorality, witchcraft, etc.

3. You're avoiding the actual issue of Galatians 5 and how it totally goes against what you're saying by bringing in a completely different subject that is not related to anything I've mentioned here.

4. Why would some Christians have a "change of heart" and others wouldn't, according to your logic? Since it obviously can't be a person's freewill and will power in your logic, why is God deliberately stopping other people from avoiding these actions which cause them to not inherit the Kingdom?

5. The definition of "Sin" according to 1 John, is "Lawlessness", and in context to the rest of the epistle, and the meaning of the word as applied in Matthew, most likely means "breaking the commandments".

You brought up Pauls teaching.You have to use all of his teaching and not use scripture out of context.
He taught a message of grace over law( are same dicussion) and they, just like you, said should you continue in sin so grace may abound.
It is not you in and of yourself that overcomes sin but it is the goodness of the Lord that brings one to repentance.It cannot be done in your self as I explained before it is the law of sin and death that one gets trapped in and a law is fixed until the law maker takes the law away.Your will power can only hold up for a awhile and will soon break under that of a law.Walk by laws all you want but they are only there so man comes to the end of his own will power and must reach out for grace!Grace is also a law of love which is stronger then the law of sin and death.When we learn to lean on this law of love then we can overcome our sins through this grace with the yoke of Christ instead of our own which is not possible.Jesus says to take my yoke for it is easy and my burden is light.Salvation can only come by faith in Christ.
Romans 14
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

For me, this is a rhetorical question, but I am interested in the views of others, including non-Christians and their religious beliefs.

Saved by faith alone, or by faith + deeds (good works)?

(NASB)
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

vs.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Thus the contradiction and disagreement between Christian denominations.

Saved by faith and faith is a deed.

 

[Shermana]

You brought up Pauls teaching.You have to use all of his teaching and not use scripture out of context.

I don't believe I"m using him out of context whatsoever. Again, you are dodging my questions, and probably for a reason.

He taught a message of grace over law( are same dicussion)

Which is why I don't go by Paul. You do however, and I'm saying you don't quite understand what Paul says about it in the first place/

and they, just like you, said should you continue in sin so grace may abound.

Actually no, I'm not saying that it's the goodness of the Lord that brings people to repentance. I'm saying it's quite the opposite, that it's a person's personal willpower, sense of responsibility and accountability. In your view, God's very arbitrary, and you have no explanation of why he chooses to pick one person to bring to repentance but not another.

My version takes personal accountability, free will, conscience, personal effort, and individual striving into the equation, which is what Jesus spends 99% of his time teaching.

Your version basically says, vaguely, "God does it all", which Jesus does NOT mention whatsoever, and does not explain why God picks one person or another to do this for. I'm not sure how you even take into account Galatians 5 and how Jesus says if you don't help your impoverished brother you'll burn in hell or that it's better to drown yourself than "offend" a child or that you should chop off your manhood if it causes you to enter the fire, I think you've skipped those questions each time unless I'm mistaken.

It is not you in and of yourself that overcomes sin but it is the goodness of the Lord that brings one to repentance.

Rather than repeat yourself, why don't you try answering my question this time?

4. Why would some Christians have a "change of heart" and others wouldn't, according to your logic? Since it obviously can't be a person's freewill and will power in your logic, why is God deliberately stopping other people from avoiding these actions which cause them to not inherit the Kingdom?

Let me know if you need it more simplified.

It cannot be done in your self as I explained before it is the law of sin and death that one gets trapped in and a law is fixed until the law maker takes the law away.

That's really just gibberish in my eyes, what does that mean exactly? Why does God choose to deliver one person and not another? Are you basically espousing a modified version of Calvinism that doesn't even take personal accountability into the equation?

Your will power can only hold up for a awhile and will soon break under that of a law.Walk by laws all you want but they are only there so man comes to the end of his own will power and must reach out for grace!Grace is also a law of love which is stronger then the law of sin and death.When we learn to lean on this law of love then we can overcome our sins through this grace with the yoke of Christ instead of our own which is not possible.Jesus says to take my yoke for it is easy and my burden is light.Salvation can only come by faith in Christ.

Okay, so that really doesn't address my points or answer my questions.

Just start with #4. Why does God not bring some people out of this condition but brings others? What is an example of a person who God brings out? What does this say about so-called Christians who are drunkards, sexually immoral (Almost all Christians I know engage in pre-marital behavior, wait did I say almost?), get into fits of rage (I've seen plenty of them get quite rage-y)? That God chose not to make them fit to inherit the Kingdom? Your "answers" don't really answer this issue. What you're saying is essentially a version of Calvinism that's even more elitist and arbitrary that doesn't address anything at all about WHY God would choose to fix certain people to correct themselves. No matter what, Paul says that bad behavior = no inheriting the Kingdom.

Romans 14
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

By your interpretation of this, Paul completely contradicts himself.

 

[Walkntune]

I don't believe I"m using him out of context whatsoever. Again, you are dodging my questions, and probably for a reason.



Which is why I don't go by Paul. You do however, and I'm saying you don't quite understand what Paul says about it in the first place/



Actually no, I'm not saying that it's the goodness of the Lord that brings people to repentance. I'm saying it's quite the opposite, that it's a person's personal willpower, sense of responsibility and accountability. In your view, God's very arbitrary, and you have no explanation of why he chooses to pick one person to bring to repentance but not another.

My version takes personal accountability, free will, conscience, personal effort, and individual striving into the equation, which is what Jesus spends 99% of his time teaching.

Your version basically says, vaguely, "God does it all", which Jesus does NOT mention whatsoever, and does not explain why God picks one person or another to do this for. I'm not sure how you even take into account Galatians 5 and how Jesus says if you don't help your impoverished brother you'll burn in hell or that it's better to drown yourself than "offend" a child or that you should chop off your manhood if it causes you to enter the fire, I think you've skipped those questions each time unless I'm mistaken.





Rather than repeat yourself, why don't you try answering my question this time?



Let me know if you need it more simplified.




That's really just gibberish in my eyes, what does that mean exactly? Why does God choose to deliver one person and not another? Are you basically espousing a modified version of Calvinism that doesn't even take personal accountability into the equation?



Okay, so that really doesn't address my points or answer my questions.

Just start with #4. Why does God not bring some people out of this condition but brings others? What is an example of a person who God brings out? What does this say about so-called Christians who are drunkards, sexually immoral (Almost all Christians I know engage in pre-marital behavior, wait did I say almost?), get into fits of rage (I've seen plenty of them get quite rage-y)? That God chose not to make them fit to inherit the Kingdom? Your "answers" don't really answer this issue. What you're saying is essentially a version of Calvinism that's even more elitist and arbitrary that doesn't address anything at all about WHY God would choose to fix certain people to correct themselves. No matter what, Paul says that bad behavior = no inheriting the Kingdom.




By your interpretation of this, Paul completely contradicts himself.

I have answered your questions.
The bible is a two edged sword. We can choose to walk in love and grace or law and wrath. We can be in the right hand blessing or the left. Both points of view are correct but you will live and die by the one you choose.

 

[Shermana]

I have answered your questions.
The bible is a two edged sword. You seem to have chosen law and wrath over love and grace. Both points of view are correct but you will live and die by the point of view you choose.

You have not answered my questions whatsoever.

I asked you twice why God chooses to let some (ahem...almost all) people continue to sin and thus not inherit the Kingdom.

You have no response to the issue of why Jesus says its better to drown yourself than to offend a child or that you'll burn in hell for not helping an impoverished Brother. Your answer that God simply takes control of the heart of the believer doesn't explain why he chooses to do so for one but not another, and isn't what the text says.

If you're going to just say you answered my questions when you didn't, we can just leave it at that.

Wrath is still apparently applied to sinners even in the writings of Paul. Ananias and Saphira were struck dead for merely lying about the value of their home.

What you have chosen appears to be a total disregard and disdain for personal accountability and the actual teachings of Jesus, and your unwillingness to answer questions about verses that directly contradict your view, and then falsely stating that you did answer them when you didn't is in full compatability with this view.

I don't even get what you mean by "choosing Law and Wrath". Hebrews 10:26-29 says that anyone who continues to sin will get fiery indignation. What I choose is to actually read what the text says when drafting Theological opinions, whether I accept the text or not. What I choose is to not snip out 99% of what Jesus says and replace it with some cherry picked ideas of what Paul says that contradict with what Paul says in other places.

 

[Walkntune]

Paul taught a message of grace over law and some asked should we continue in sin so grace may abound?
It is not us in and of ourselves that overcomes sin but it is the goodness of the Lord that brings one to repentance.It cannot be done in ourself because it is the law of sin and death that one gets trapped in and a law is fixed until the law maker takes the law away.Our will power can only hold up for a awhile and will soon break under that of a law.We can hold our flesh accountable all we want but the law of sin and death was given so man comes to the end of his own will power and must reach out for grace! Grace is also a law which is that of the love of Christ which is stronger then the law of sin and death.When we learn to lean on this law of love then we can overcome our sins through this grace with the yoke of Christ instead of our own which is not possible.Jesus says to take my yoke for it is easy and my burden is light.Salvation can only come by faith in Christ.The reason we die to the flesh is because it is subject to the law of sin and death.We don't live in such away that we always keep our flesh subject to the laws of sin and death but we learn to die to it and live by the Spirit.. We don't have to keep looking back from the plow to keep our salvation in check but we look out at a harvest with a heart of love!We must die to our flesh and the bondage the law of sin and death and live according to the Spirit in love.We need to trust the spirit to lead us into truth and conviction of Christ and not bind ourselves to the law of sin and death which we have died too.We need to walk by faith.
When we except the fact that God's love for us is not based on performance but that he died for all while we were yet sinners, then we will quit trying to perform for his love and will soon do what is pleasing to God based on a love back to him and not under any condemnation of the law of sin and death.It is the Goodness of God that leads one to repentance.If we try to perform for his love and grace, then we are not recieving that which he truly gives freely out of faith.He gave us his son because he loved us first.We need to get away from a sin and repent mentality to be right with God and get more into recieving more of His love so we can freely give to another mentality.If we judge ourselves of worthiness we will judge another.If we see the truth of that which was freely given to us by gace although we were all underserving, then we will also reach out to another.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Under the Law, it was forbidden to wear a garment mixed with Wool & Linen... Wool (a heavy fabric that causes you to sweat) represents sweat from the works of the Law; where Linen (a light fabric that keeps you cool) represents Righteousness through resting from our works....

So, not mixing Wool with Linen was an Old Covenant foreshadow of how we are not to mix LAW & GRACE in the New Covenant! (Lev. 19:19)

I am wiping the dust off my feet here!!

 

[Muffled]

For me, this is a rhetorical question, but I am interested in the views of others, including non-Christians and their religious beliefs.

Saved by faith alone, or by faith + deeds (good works)?

(NASB)
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

vs.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Thus the contradiction and disagreement between Christian denominations.

I believe It helps to read the text. This is past tense. The Ephesians were saved by grace. For me salvation always came by grace. Repentance helped save me from a sinful attitude and that was given to me by God who reasoned with me that it was a better way. Salvation from committing sin was provided by the grace of God in the form of His power to change things. Faith plays a part in this of course because I trusted that I heard from God and that He would answer my prayers.

I believe this is a future judgement on non-Christians who did not enter the Kingdom of God. Those whose deeds were evil will be cast into Hell however there is no indication that those with good deeds enter the Kingdom of God. It is possible that this group continues in temporal life as being found in the Book of Life may indicate. My reasoning is this that books are writen for history and only temporal life has a history while eternal life does not require one and no-one bothers to keep track of years.

 

[thau]

For me, this is a rhetorical question, but I am interested in the views of others, including non-Christians and their religious beliefs.

Saved by faith alone, or by faith + deeds (good works)?

(NASB)
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

vs.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Thus the contradiction and disagreement between Christian denominations.

What does "saved" mean to you? A direct flight to heaven upon death? And no sin can stop that believer from ascending?

Or if we sin too much do we lose our salvation?

Or maybe many, if not most, cast themselves into purgatory for untold years of purification because they cannot stomach how they appear before the Holy One?

Purgatory aside... maybe some are saved by faith alone despite their odious behavior? And maybe others are saved by their selfless acts of charity and love for others despite their ignoring who God is all their lives? Maybe God is more difficult to pin down than we wish? Maybe when He said "my ways are not your ways" that refers to some very sublime or important matters such as how the after life plays out?

The Bible suggests and refers to all of the above, not just Martin Luther's mantra.

 

[Father Heathen]

I would like to think that our character and conduct reflect our hearts, minds, and souls; the essence of our very being. These things hold far more depth, substance and meaning than empty gestures.

 

[Katzpur]

If being good is what determines if you go to heaven (or wherever good dead people go) why would faith be important at all? I have problems believing that a good god would require you suck up to him to get into heaven.

"Being good" is not the determining factor as to where a person goes after death. If it were, why -- as you pointed out -- would faith be important at all? But faith alone is not the determining factor either. If a person claims to have faith in Christ, he must be faithful to Christ. The scriptures are absolutely clear on this point. In addition to the passages that have already been mentioned, these three come to mind...

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

In other words, we are not saved by our works, but unless we are willing to walk the walk -- and not just talk the talk -- His grace is not offered to us. We must do the will of our Father in Heaven and keep Christ's commandments if He is to be the author of our salvation.

 

[InChrist]

For me, this is a rhetorical question, but I am interested in the views of others, including non-Christians and their religious beliefs.

Saved by faith alone, or by faith + deeds (good works)?

(NASB)
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

vs.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Thus the contradiction and disagreement between Christian denominations.

There is no contradiction between Ephesians 2:8-9 and Revelation 20:12-13. In Ephesians the scripture tells how one is saved and it is by God's grace through the price Christ paid for the sins of the world on the cross. Salvation (being saved from the consequences of sin) and eternal life are gifts freely given to those who believe, trust, and accept Christ's payment on their behalf. Good works inspired by the Holy Spirit then follow, but they do not save.

Revelation 20:12-13 is speaking about all non-believers (the unsaved) who will stand before the final Great White Throne and be judged for all their works facing the consequences on their own without the Savior whom they rejected. This is the judgment of the second death...eternal damnation.

Believers who are already saved by grace do not appear before the final Great White Throne judgment of Revelation, but stand only before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10; 2 Cor. 5:9-10), not to determine salvation or one's eternal state, but to receive rewards for any works done by the leading of the Holy Spirit in service to Christ ( 1 Cor. 3:11-15).

 

[Katzpur]

Good works inspired by the Holy Spirit then follow, but they do not save.

And if good works do not follow, does that mean that the person, while he may believe himself to be saved, is not really saved?

 

[ChristineES]

"Being good" is not the determining factor as to where a person goes after death. If it were, why -- as you pointed out -- would faith be important at all? But faith alone is not the determining factor either. If a person claims to have faith in Christ, he must be faithful to Christ. The scriptures are absolutely clear on this point. In addition to the passages that have already been mentioned, these three come to mind...

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

In other words, we are not saved by our works, but unless we are willing to walk the walk -- and not just talk the talk -- His grace is not offered to us. We must do the will of our Father in Heaven and keep Christ's commandments if He is to be the author of our salvation.

That is an important thing to remember, sister Katzpur. What you write above is a good reminder.

If someone says they are a Christian, and yet they hate their neighbor, torment strangers, and all that, do you really think that person is truly saved- just because they have faith? Sure, faith saves us, but we still have to do Jesus' commands, as well. We are not saved by those works, but they show God and others you really are, as Katzpur put it, walking the walk. (no, I don't judge such people- they do enough to judge themselves- )

 

[InChrist]

And if good works do not follow, does that mean that the person, while he may believe himself to be saved, is not really saved?

That may be a possibility.

 

[kjw47]

And if good works do not follow, does that mean that the person, while he may believe himself to be saved, is not really saved?

It is really unfortunate that mortals try to tell others they are in a saved position--a mortal doesnt have a clue as to who will be saved--Jesus taught--One must endure till the end to be saved-- not to say one isnt in a saved position along the race to the end, but no other mortal knows who or who isnt in that position. And by telling others, they are actually trying to elevate themselves into Gods position. That isnt going to work out very well for them. So then its obvious those teachers do not have a clue--RUN

 

[ChristineES]

It is really unfortunate that mortals try to tell others they are in a saved position--a mortal doesnt have a clue as to who will be saved--Jesus taught--One must endure till the end to be saved-- not to say one isnt in a saved position along the race to the end, but no other mortal knows who or who isnt in that position. And by telling others, they are actually trying to elevate themselves into Gods position. That isnt going to work out very well for them. So then its obvious those teachers do not have a clue--RUN

I don't think she was judging if someone is saved or not, but more that we can usually discern when people aren't following the commands to the best of their ability- especially when we know the person very well. Only God knows who is truly saved- that is a given.