Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[Lady B]

So you would be OK with it if we voted that Christians did not have equal rights. Unhappy, but you'd be fine with it because it's the majority?

I'm absolutely baffled by your response, but at least it's internally consistent I suppose.

And I do disagree that the rights of the minority should be voted on by the majority. Again, see the Civil Rights Era. It required court action. Do you think we should have kept black people from having equal rights until the majority voted on it?

No I disregard the comparison of religious freedom and same sex marriage, as freedom of religion is a well established constitutional right where as same sex marriage is not and therfore should be voted on to gain entry into the laws of our nation.

 

[Alceste]

If same sex marriage is the momentum, it would be the majority and the laws would be passed accordingly. You surely cannot blame conservatives and christians for showing up at the polls can you?

You asked how it could be true that the majority of Americans actually support gay marriage if the issue often goes the other way at the polls. I answered. It is nevertheless a fact that every survey in 2011 has found that a majority of Americans support same sex marriage. It's also a fact that fifteen states in your country and many other western countries have legalized gay marriage or same sex unions. If that doesn't sound like momentum to you, I don't know what would.

 

[Lady B]

You asked how it could be true that the majority of Americans actually support gay marriage if the issue often goes the other way at the polls. I answered. It is nevertheless a fact that every survey in 2011 has found that a majority of Americans support same sex marriage. It's also a fact that fifteen states in your country and many other western countries have legalized gay marriage or same sex unions. If that doesn't sound like momentum to you, I don't know what would.

Again..If it is the majority who can stop it from being entered in as law? Obviously the polls and the actual votes have a discrepancy do you not agree? Are you alledging that Christians and conservatives somehow corrupted the actual votes? Also, 15 states is not an American majority, it is a minority, we can't include other western countries in a argument involving American voters. My point still stands, if there is indeed a majority supporting gay marriage then it would show up in the vote.

 

[sojourner]

Dawny:

The Christians in my life who do not condone homosexuality and wouldn't legally support marriage equality, do not truly hate gay people.

I think they're fooling themselves.

Dawny:

They genuinely believe that they need to place God first in their lives.

That's what the Pharisees who were about to stone the prostitute believed, too.

Dawny:

There's a difference between disagreeing with marriage equality (for whatever reason) and hating people.

Perhaps you could illuminate that difference for us?

 

[Jainarayan]

their actions are still hateful and cruel.

And controlling. I believe this is very much a control issue, a need to control others. For what reason, I do not know. Perhaps insecurity. Consider that many of those who oppose gay marriage and consider homosexuality a sin based on the bible tend to be bible literalists. I think anything contrary to their understanding of the bible, though ironically they usually don't understand it, shakes the foundations of their world.

 

[sojourner]

Lsdy B:

Our country was formed with freedom of religion as a right and a motive for establishing our country. Same sex marriage isn't exactly in this category, as far as I know it has yet to be established as a religion and subject to religious freedoms.

It is a religious issue for many homosexual Christians, who wish to have a God-sanctioned marriage, and who wish to ritually bless their union, and who wish to have the support of their religious community. Would you try to pass a law outlawing the celebration of the Eucharist? Isn't that a religious freedom issue? How is this any different?

Lady B:

Same sex marriage is a proposal adding to the laws not taking from and so should be voted in by the people.

So were suffrage and equal rights. What's the difference here?

 

[Lady B]

Lsdy B:

It is a religious issue for many homosexual Christians, who wish to have a God-sanctioned marriage, and who wish to ritually bless their union, and who wish to have the support of their religious community. Would you try to pass a law outlawing the celebration of the Eucharist? Isn't that a religious freedom issue? How is this any different?

No I would not attempt to pass laws outlawing any religion, even If I do not agree, I uphold all rights for religious freedom and rights to expression. I do not condemn the agenda at all, I honor anyones right to propose any issue regardless of my beliefs. What I do not agree with is my rights to vote according to my convictions being seen as hatefull.

Lady B:

So were suffrage and equal rights. What's the difference here?

This is a good point and I can only argue that If a group feels like they are suffering under the system, then they have the rights to fight for it same as I do.

 

[Drolefille]

No I disregard the comparison of religious freedom and same sex marriage, as freedom of religion is a well established constitutional right where as same sex marriage is not and therfore should be voted on to gain entry into the laws of our nation.

What if were women's rights to vote that were revoked?
What if it were your race's rights that were revoked?
What if were people who have the same color of eyes as you that had their rights revoked by the majority?

I'm talking about the majority revoking the rights of the minority- the category of the rights is not the relevant point.

So if people with your color eyes suddenly had everyone else revoke their rights because they think that your color eyes are a sign of a god's disfavor, would you be ok with that?


If you want to address the religious freedom as a separate issue, what about the fact that some religions allow same-sex marriage, why are you wanting to restrict their religious rights?

 

[sojourner]

lady B:

What I do not agree with is my rights to vote according to my convictions being seen as hatefull.

You're voting to exclude some from fully participating in the culture.
You're the one saying with your vote that grace isn't for everyone.
You're the one who is complicit in the dehumanization of homosexuals by your vote.

Lady B:

I can only argue that If a group feels like they are suffering under the system, then they have the rights to fight for it same as I do.

That's easy for the majority to say...
But Jesus spoke up in advocacy for the underprivileged and those without adequate voice. Paul advocated for the culturally strong to defer to the culturally weak.
God, through Ezekiel, freely spoke life to corruption.

Why would you be different?

 

[Lady B]

What if were women's rights to vote that were revoked?
What if it were your race's rights that were revoked?
What if were people who have the same color of eyes as you that had their rights revoked by the majority?

I'm talking about the majority revoking the rights of the minority- the category of the rights is not the relevant point.

So if people with your color eyes suddenly had everyone else revoke their rights because they think that your color eyes are a sign of a god's disfavor, would you be ok with that?


If you want to address the religious freedom as a separate issue, what about the fact that some religions allow same-sex marriage, why are you wanting to restrict their religious rights?

These discriminations are already clearly established in our constitution and no one would revoke these rights. None even is invoking the rights to be gay, sexual orientation is not the business of legislature, however marriage is clearly defined and if a group, minor or major seeks to change this established institution, It should be done by a vote not a government. You can argue how the institution of marriage was defined and I concede It came from the Bible precepts, so challenge that, but don't condemn Christians or conservatives for upholding it.

 

[sojourner]

Drolefille:

If you want to address the religious freedom as a separate issue, what about the fact that some religions allow same-sex marriage, why are you wanting to restrict their religious rights?

Well said!

 

[sojourner]

These discriminations are already clearly established in our constitution and no one would revoke these rights. None even is invoking the rights to be gay, sexual orientation is not the business of legislature, however marriage is clearly defined and if a group, minor or major seeks to change this established institution, It should be done by a vote not a government. You can argue how the institution of marriage was defined and I concede It came from the Bible precepts, so challenge that, but don't condemn Christians or conservatives for upholding it.

Voting rights exclusive of women was also clearly-defined, as was full and equal participation exclusive of blacks. Are you saying that the gov't should not have gotten involved?

We are guaranteed certain rights by our constitution, including the pursuit of happiness. How can exclusive rights for some constitute pursuit of happiness for all?

 

[Jainarayan]

freedom of religion is a well established constitutional right where as same sex marriage is not

I beg to differ.

ISame sex marriage is a proposal adding to the laws not taking from and so should be voted in by the people. Do you not agree?

I for one do not agree, which should come as no surprise. Prohibiting same-sex marriage is indeed taking away from the law.

Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

A state makes a law allowing heterosexuals to marry; a state makes a law denying homosexuals to marry. Heterosexuals are protected by law in a right to marry; homosexuals are not protected by law in a right to marry. No equal protection of the laws.

Any questions?

 

[Lady B]

Drolefille:

Well said!

How is my vote constricting religious freedom? You are turning the homosexual agenda into a religious institution, It is not. How religions practice is not on the ballad and your prior point of marriage in the church is not a binding legal marriage was valid. So religious freedoms have not been encroached here.

 

[Lady B]

Voting rights exclusive of women was also clearly-defined, as was full and equal participation exclusive of blacks. Are you saying that the gov't should not have gotten involved?

We are guaranteed certain rights by our constitution, including the pursuit of happiness. How can exclusive rights for some constitute pursuit of happiness for all?

The rights won for women and blacks were won by defining the constitution and fighting for it. I am not against your rights to fight, I am not opposed to your rights to propose and to vote per your convictions. You are against mine.

 

[Alceste]

To be fair, I get your points, I do. I know I am not making many friends here but I hope I am not making enemy's by sharing my views. Basically I do not agree in discrimination at all. I just think we all have the right to vote based on our convictions and God's word. Homosexuals do also, and If they become the majority and win their rights by a fair vote, I will have nothing to say against them. I will uphold the churches stand and continue to vote according to my beliefs as This is my right as a u.s. citizen. As far as U.S. laws are concerned we all have the power to make or break any issue in the ballads, so If this law will be passed it will be from the voters and it is your right to campaign and encourage your fellow man to turn out at the polls and win what you seek to win.

With that being said, The church is seperate from goverment and should not be seen as discriminating. The people who vote according to God's will are not being hatefull, they are being true to their God and cannot support what they feel to be contrary to His word.

Just want to point out that you don't need a majority to be homosexual to get a majority vote. Most of the advocates of non-discrimination are not gay. All you need is people who recognize that it is wrong to try to get the secular state to impose your religious laws on others who don't share your beliefs. A majority of people do realize this, especially when the religious law in question is Shari'a.

 

[Jainarayan]

the homosexual agenda

Time to get silly and bring this out of cold storage...

The Homosexual Agenda Revealed! Conservative Christians discover what radical homosexual activists are up to! Ex-gay Ministry: BASH Baptists Are Saving Homosexuals! Christians Proudly Hating Through Tbe Anointing of Jesus

8:00 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Wake up. Wonder where you are.

8:01 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Realize you are lying on 100 percent cotton sheets of at least a 300 count, so don't panic; you're not slumming.[/FONT]

8:02 a.m. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Realize you are actually in your own bed for a change. Wake stranger next to you and tell them you are late for work so won't be able to cook breakfast for them. Mutter "sorry" as you help him look for his far-flung underwear. You find out that you tore his boxers while ripping them off him last night, so you "loan" him a pair of boxer-briefs, but not the new ones because you never intend to see him again.[/FONT]

8:05 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Tell the stranger, whose name eludes you, "It was fun. I'll give you a call," as you usher him out the door, avoiding his egregious morning-breath.[/FONT]

8:06 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Crumple and dispose of the piece of paper with his telephone number on it when you get to the kitchen.[/FONT]

8:07 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Make a high protein breakfast while watching the Today show. Wonder if the stories you've heard about Matt Lauer are true. Decide they must be.[/FONT]

8:30 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Italian or domestic? Decide to go with three-button Italian and the only shirt that is clean.[/FONT]

8:45 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Climb into red Z4 and try not to look too much like Barbie driving one of her accessories as you pull out of your underground parking. Revos or Armanis? Go with Revos.[/FONT]

9:35 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Stroll into office.[/FONT]

9:36 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Close door to office and call best friend and laugh about the guy who spent the night at your condo. Point out something annoying about best friend's boyfriend but quickly add "It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, just as long as you love him."[/FONT]

10:15 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Leave office, telling your secretary you are "meeting with a client." Pretend not to notice her insubordinate roll of her eyes (or the cloying "poem" she has tacked to her cubicle wall).[/FONT]

10:30 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Hair appointment for lowlights and cut. Purchase of Aveda anti-humectant pomade.[/FONT]

11:30 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Run into personal trainer at gym. Pester him about getting you Human Growth Hormone. Spend 30 minutes talking to friends on your cell phone while using Hammer Strength machines, preparing a mental-matrix of which circuit parties everyone is going to and which are now passe.[/FONT]

12:00pm[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Tan. Schedule back-waxing in time for Saturday party where you know you will end up shirtless.[/FONT]

12:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Pay trainer for anabolic steroids and schedule a workout. Shower, taking ten minutes to knot your tie while you check-out your best friend's boyfriend undress with the calculation of someone used to wearing a t-back and having dollars stuffed in their crotch.[/FONT]

1:00 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Meet someone for whom you only know his waist, chest and penis size from AOL M4M chat for lunch at a hot, new restaurant. Because the maître d' recognizes you from a gay bar, you are whisked past the Christian heterosexual couples who have been waiting patiently for a table since 12:30.[/FONT]

2:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] "Dessert at your place." Find out, once again, people lie on AOL.[/FONT]

3:33 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Assume complete control of the U.S., state, and local governments (in addition to other nations' governments); destroy all healthy Christian marriages; recruit all children grades Kindergarten through 12 into your amoral, filthy lifestyle; secure complete control of the media, starting with sitcoms; molest innocent children; give AIDS to as many people as you can; host a pornographic "art" exhibit at your local art museum; and turn people away from Jesus, causing them to burn forever in Hell.[/FONT]

4:10 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Time permitting, bring about the general decline of Western Civilization and look like you are having way too much fun doing it.[/FONT]

4:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Take a disco-nap to prevent facial wrinkles from the stress of world conquest and being so terribly witty.[/FONT]

6:00 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Open a fabulous new bottle of Malbec.[/FONT]

6:47 P.M.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Bake Ketamine for weekend. Test recipe.[/FONT]
7:00 P.M. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Go to Abercrombie & Fitch and announce in a loud voice, "Over!"[/FONT]
7:40 P.M. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Stop looking at the photographic displays at Abercrombie & Fitch and go to a cool store to begin shopping.[/FONT]
8:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Light dinner with catty homosexual friends at a restaurant you will be "over" by the time it gets its first review in the local paper.[/FONT]

10:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Cocktails at a debauched gay bar, trying to avoid alcoholic queens who can't navigate a crowd with a lit cigarette in one hand and a Stoli in a cheap plastic cup in the other. Make audible remark about how "trashy" people who still think smoking is acceptable are.[/FONT]

12:00 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] "Nightcap at your place." Find out that people lie in bars, too.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
​

 

[Lady B]

Just want to point out that you don't need a majority to be homosexual to get a majority vote. Most of the advocates of non-discrimination are not gay. All you need is people who recognize that it is wrong to try to get the secular state to impose your religious laws on others who don't share your beliefs. A majority of people do realize this, especially when the religious law in question is Shari'a.

Generally I agree with you here. If the ballad proposal says " do you feel it is right for all Americans to be under Christian doctrines" I would vote no and I would be sincere. I would not want to live in a country where religion rules.

However If the ballad asks me to vote yes or no for redefining marriage, I would vote no, per my convictions.

 

[Breathe]

3:33 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Assume complete control of the U.S., state, and local governments (in addition to other nations' governments); destroy all healthy Christian marriages; recruit all children grades Kindergarten through 12 into your amoral, filthy lifestyle; secure complete control of the media, starting with sitcoms; molest innocent children; give AIDS to as many people as you can; host a pornographic "art" exhibit at your local art museum; and turn people away from Jesus, causing them to burn forever in Hell.[/FONT]

4:10 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Time permitting, bring about the general decline of Western Civilization and look like you are having way too much fun doing it.[/FONT]

All that in under an hour. What skill!

 

[Alceste]

The rights won for women and blacks were won by defining the constitution and fighting for it. I am not against your rights to fight, I am not opposed to your rights to propose and to vote per your convictions. You are against mine.

Nobody's said you don't have a right to vote, or that they want to take your rights away. Don't over-react. People are only pointing out that your vote against equal rights for homosexuals is an effort to restrict the rights and freedoms of others who don't share your religious views. That includes not only gay couples who want to marry, but also churches that want to be able to legally marry them. So you are in fact trying to impose your religion on others, and that is an attack on their religious freedom.

Voting for marriage equality imposes nothing on you or your church. If you don't agree with gay marriage, marriage equality won't force you to become gay. It simply ends a policy of discrimination against a minority.