Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[Jainarayan]

All that in under an hour. What skill!

We're here, we're queer, we're fierce and we're fabulous. :biglaugh:

 

[sojourner]

How is my vote constricting religious freedom? You are turning the homosexual agenda into a religious institution, It is not. How religions practice is not on the ballad and your prior point of marriage in the church is not a binding legal marriage was valid. So religious freedoms have not been encroached here.

You are turning an equal rights issue into a "homosexual agenda." It isn't an "agenda," it's a cry for equal treatment.

How religions practice is on the ballot, since there are more than several states that outlaw gay marriage outright. Therefore, churches cannot, in good social conscience, participate in gay marriage in those states -- even if they want to do so.

Religious freedoms have been encroached upon. I, as a member of the clergy, am precluded from officiating gay marriages -- and I would dearly love to do so! That is a religious freedom that has been encroached upon. I know several gay couples who would love to be married in the church -- and cannot here, because of the law. That is a religious freedom that has been encroached upon -- by the government, who you say need not be involved in this process.

 

[sojourner]

The rights won for women and blacks were won by defining the constitution and fighting for it. I am not against your rights to fight, I am not opposed to your rights to propose and to vote per your convictions. You are against mine.

Mine doesn't advocate for unequal treatment and the dehumanization of a minority. Yours does.

And, BTW, I'm not against your voting your conviction. I simply question your conviction, based upon the criteria you've set forth.

IMO, the constitution needs to be defined and defended in favor of equal rights.

Look, when the biblical injunctions were written, they were written for a people who lived under a set of religious law. These days, we live in a highly pluralistic society, wherein not all are even religious. You can't pass a set of civic laws based upon religious principles that not all adhere to -- or are responsible to.

Even the Jews say that non-Jews don't have to abide by Torah. Why should you expect everyone to abide by Christian "morals?" or even your particular set of Christian "morals?" They're not universal. Therefore, your "Christian job" as a Citizen is to see to it that all have equal rights and equal treatment -- regardless of the moral code you happen to espouse.

 

[Lady B]

You are turning an equal rights issue into a "homosexual agenda." It isn't an "agenda," it's a cry for equal treatment.

How religions practice is on the ballot, since there are more than several states that outlaw gay marriage outright. Therefore, churches cannot, in good social conscience, participate in gay marriage in those states -- even if they want to do so.

Religious freedoms have been encroached upon. I, as a member of the clergy, am precluded from officiating gay marriages -- and I would dearly love to do so! That is a religious freedom that has been encroached upon. I know several gay couples who would love to be married in the church -- and cannot here, because of the law. That is a religious freedom that has been encroached upon -- by the government, who you say need not be involved in this process.

Ok granted, however even had you been given relgious rights to perform the ceremony, It is not legal untill the licence is submitted to the state, therfore it is really just a religious ceremony. The state law is what is denying the rights, and the state law is seperate from the church. The church can still hold the ceremony the same as with hetero, same registering of deeds need be done and then it becomes invalid or valid. I made this confusing, but my point is nothing changed as far as ceremony, and so does not encroach on religious freedom.

 

[sojourner]

Time to get silly and bring this out of cold storage...

The Homosexual Agenda Revealed! Conservative Christians discover what radical homosexual activists are up to! Ex-gay Ministry: BASH Baptists Are Saving Homosexuals! Christians Proudly Hating Through Tbe Anointing of Jesus

8:00 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Wake up. Wonder where you are.

8:01 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Realize you are lying on 100 percent cotton sheets of at least a 300 count, so don't panic; you're not slumming.[/FONT]

8:02 a.m. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Realize you are actually in your own bed for a change. Wake stranger next to you and tell them you are late for work so won't be able to cook breakfast for them. Mutter "sorry" as you help him look for his far-flung underwear. You find out that you tore his boxers while ripping them off him last night, so you "loan" him a pair of boxer-briefs, but not the new ones because you never intend to see him again.[/FONT]

8:05 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Tell the stranger, whose name eludes you, "It was fun. I'll give you a call," as you usher him out the door, avoiding his egregious morning-breath.[/FONT]

8:06 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Crumple and dispose of the piece of paper with his telephone number on it when you get to the kitchen.[/FONT]

8:07 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Make a high protein breakfast while watching the Today show. Wonder if the stories you've heard about Matt Lauer are true. Decide they must be.[/FONT]

8:30 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Italian or domestic? Decide to go with three-button Italian and the only shirt that is clean.[/FONT]

8:45 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Climb into red Z4 and try not to look too much like Barbie driving one of her accessories as you pull out of your underground parking. Revos or Armanis? Go with Revos.[/FONT]

9:35 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Stroll into office.[/FONT]

9:36 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Close door to office and call best friend and laugh about the guy who spent the night at your condo. Point out something annoying about best friend's boyfriend but quickly add "It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks, just as long as you love him."[/FONT]

10:15 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Leave office, telling your secretary you are "meeting with a client." Pretend not to notice her insubordinate roll of her eyes (or the cloying "poem" she has tacked to her cubicle wall).[/FONT]

10:30 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Hair appointment for lowlights and cut. Purchase of Aveda anti-humectant pomade.[/FONT]

11:30 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Run into personal trainer at gym. Pester him about getting you Human Growth Hormone. Spend 30 minutes talking to friends on your cell phone while using Hammer Strength machines, preparing a mental-matrix of which circuit parties everyone is going to and which are now passe.[/FONT]

12:00pm[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Tan. Schedule back-waxing in time for Saturday party where you know you will end up shirtless.[/FONT]

12:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Pay trainer for anabolic steroids and schedule a workout. Shower, taking ten minutes to knot your tie while you check-out your best friend's boyfriend undress with the calculation of someone used to wearing a t-back and having dollars stuffed in their crotch.[/FONT]

1:00 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Meet someone for whom you only know his waist, chest and penis size from AOL M4M chat for lunch at a hot, new restaurant. Because the maître d' recognizes you from a gay bar, you are whisked past the Christian heterosexual couples who have been waiting patiently for a table since 12:30.[/FONT]

2:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] "Dessert at your place." Find out, once again, people lie on AOL.[/FONT]

3:33 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Assume complete control of the U.S., state, and local governments (in addition to other nations' governments); destroy all healthy Christian marriages; recruit all children grades Kindergarten through 12 into your amoral, filthy lifestyle; secure complete control of the media, starting with sitcoms; molest innocent children; give AIDS to as many people as you can; host a pornographic "art" exhibit at your local art museum; and turn people away from Jesus, causing them to burn forever in Hell.[/FONT]

4:10 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Time permitting, bring about the general decline of Western Civilization and look like you are having way too much fun doing it.[/FONT]

4:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Take a disco-nap to prevent facial wrinkles from the stress of world conquest and being so terribly witty.[/FONT]

6:00 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Open a fabulous new bottle of Malbec.[/FONT]

6:47 P.M.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Bake Ketamine for weekend. Test recipe.[/FONT]
7:00 P.M. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Go to Abercrombie & Fitch and announce in a loud voice, "Over!"[/FONT]
7:40 P.M. [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Stop looking at the photographic displays at Abercrombie & Fitch and go to a cool store to begin shopping.[/FONT]
8:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Light dinner with catty homosexual friends at a restaurant you will be "over" by the time it gets its first review in the local paper.[/FONT]

10:30 p.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] Cocktails at a debauched gay bar, trying to avoid alcoholic queens who can't navigate a crowd with a lit cigarette in one hand and a Stoli in a cheap plastic cup in the other. Make audible remark about how "trashy" people who still think smoking is acceptable are.[/FONT]

12:00 a.m.[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular] "Nightcap at your place." Find out that people lie in bars, too.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
​

I knew it!! Subversion of good, Christian morals through home decorating and fine wine! And all while looking fabulous!

 

[Penumbra]

exactly, you vote for what you think is right, as I do and as Christians and conservatives do, your view of right is based on your own views, My view is based on the bible.
If hindu scriptures did say same sex marriage is wrong, what then would be your vote? please people be honest, we all vote according to our convictions, according to what we belive is the truth, and we gain our knowledge of truth by God's word, not how the momentum is in our country.

U.S. law is not based on the Bible. The first amendment creates that divide. Any law that restricts rights should be based on demonstrated reasons, not religion.

and that statement can be turned around right? isnt your vote for same sex marriage imposing your convictions on others?

No, because your vote to deny homosexuals the ability to legally marry is to deny rights to others that don't affect you, whereas a vote in favor of gay marriage gives equal rights to those consenting adults that want to marry, and it doesn't affect you.

One restricts freedom- that's an imposition.

The other expands freedom- that's not an imposition.

To be fair, I get your points, I do. I know I am not making many friends here but I hope I am not making enemy's by sharing my views. Basically I do not agree in discrimination at all. I just think we all have the right to vote based on our convictions and God's word. Homosexuals do also, and If they become the majority and win their rights by a fair vote, I will have nothing to say against them. I will uphold the churches stand and continue to vote according to my beliefs as This is my right as a u.s. citizen. As far as U.S. laws are concerned we all have the power to make or break any issue in the ballads, so If this law will be passed it will be from the voters and it is your right to campaign and encourage your fellow man to turn out at the polls and win what you seek to win.

With that being said, The church is seperate from goverment and should not be seen as discriminating. The people who vote according to God's will are not being hatefull, they are being true to their God and cannot support what they feel to be contrary to His word.

Our laws are not based on God's will; the Constitution and the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution doesn't allow it to be. It's a country of many religions.

Furthermore, you're not voting God's will; you're voting your interpretation of your religion's interpretation of God's will. Other people that disagree with you believe just as strongly that their gods are on their sides of an argument. But this is besides the point because the Constitution doesn't allow laws to be constructed for religious reasons; they have to have practical purpose.

It's all fairly simple: if you believe gay marriage is wrong, then just don't marry a woman. Why impose laws on other people that don't affect you without a basis in law? Why tell homosexuals they cannot marry, especially when the science (as supported by the American Psychiatric Association for 40 years and the World Health Organization) that homosexuality is a natural variance in human sexuality?

What is your non-religious argument for allowing heterosexuals to marry but not allowing homosexuals to marry?

 

[Lady B]

Mine doesn't advocate for unequal treatment and the dehumanization of a minority. Yours does.

And, BTW, I'm not against your voting your conviction. I simply question your conviction, based upon the criteria you've set forth.

IMO, the constitution needs to be defined and defended in favor of equal rights.

Look, when the biblical injunctions were written, they were written for a people who lived under a set of religious law. These days, we live in a highly pluralistic society, wherein not all are even religious. You can't pass a set of civic laws based upon religious principles that not all adhere to -- or are responsible to.

Even the Jews say that non-Jews don't have to abide by Torah. Why should you expect everyone to abide by Christian "morals?" or even your particular set of Christian "morals?" They're not universal. Therefore, your "Christian job" as a Citizen is to see to it that all have equal rights and equal treatment -- regardless of the moral code you happen to espouse.

And as I have stated, go after the biblical injunctions and definitions of marriage if you will, this is your right, I will not deny you this right. I have a right to vote based on my convictions even if you question them, right? I do not espouse moral code on anyone in my pursuit to vote according to my beliefs. I did not gather my convictions from sponge Bob, I gathered them from the word of God and I hold his word above any majority, minority or momentum and If I voted for marriage to be redefined I would be going against what I believe to be Biblical, thus I would be choosing a people over my God. I can't do that, even with my loved ones recent declaration.

I see your points and see your sufferings and the need and desire to be equal, If I could help your cause without going against God, I swear I would do it. But when I am asked at the voting booth to vote for the redefinition of marriage, a marriage that was instituted and defined by God, how then can I possibly vote for this in any good conscience?

 

[Penumbra]

I see your points and see your sufferings and the need and desire to be equal, If I could help your cause without going against God, I swear I would do it.

It's your interpretation of your god, not a universally understood interpretation of god.

What methods did you use to arrive at the conclusion that your god is against homosexuality?

Considering that U.S. laws are not meant to be put in place due to religion, that's kind of irrelevant anyway.

But when I am asked at the voting booth to vote for the redefinition of marriage, a marriage that was instituted and defined by God, how then can I possibly vote for this in any good conscience?

Because your conscience is about your actions. You don't have to impose your religious beliefs on other people.

Adultery is against my conscience so I wouldn't do it. It doesn't mean I have to make it illegal for other people. Christian ethics are against my conscience, but it doesn't mean I have to make them illegal for other people to express.

 

[savagewind]

The Bible describes fire coming down to burn the town of what is viewed as homosexuals. If the image is taken literally some people fear retribution on the land where there are homosexual sex practices of some.

To be approving the marrying of homosexuals cannot be logically accomplished in one's conscience without first allowing homosexuality to be alright. The obvious solution to guard one's Christian conscious is to shut up and don't vote imo.

If there is fire from heaven I think it is safe to say it isn't for the gays.

This thread is annoying. I'm sorry Lady B to leave you alone to fend for yourself. I hate when they do that to me.

 

[Lady B]

It's your interpretation of your god, not a universally understood interpretation of god.

What methods did you use to arrive at the conclusion that your god is against homosexuality?

Considering that U.S. laws are not meant to be put in place due to religion, that's kind of irrelevant anyway.

Because your conscience is about your actions. You don't have to impose your religious beliefs on other people.

Adultery is against my conscience so I wouldn't do it. It doesn't mean I have to make it illegal for other people. Christian ethics are against my conscience, but it doesn't mean I have to make them illegal for other people to express.

I am not about my own conscience, I am about the word of God, God's word is and should be my concience.I am entitled To cast my vote according to my own beliefs and convictions, you may not agree but you cannot disallow it the same way I cannot disallow you from voting towards your own personal convictions whether they be from religious backgrounds or not.To say none should vote according to their religious beliefs is ridiculous, how then shall we vote? If Godly lives is the goal of man, how then shall we vote contrarily?

 

[Trey of Diamonds]

Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and Unitarian Christians are considered true Christians by people other than themselves. It's mostly just the fundamentalist Christians who hate us all. That said, I frequently remind myself of my favorite Catholic Christian's (Mother Teresa) words:

"For you see, in the end, it is between you and God.
It never was between you and them anyway."

For the most part I agree. But as you can see...

When measured by the "standard of Trinitarinism"
Unitarians, Mormons and JW's are not Christian.
I am an Anglican Heretic with Unitarian beliefs with a view on God, his Son and the Holy spirit more akin to Mormon understanding.

All these are beliefs about God and Jesus, held by people since the dawn of Christianity.
Catholics do consider Trinitarian Protestants to be Christian and accept their baptism as valid.

It is this question of Baptism and belief in the trinity that is the major sticking point between "Christian faiths"
Very Few Unitarians believe in the divinity of Jesus, so they are not accepted by any other Christian church.

Many people view things differently.

Mostly I hang out with religious liberals, no matter what belief they have. But where I live is a Fundamentalists haven so I see a lot of intolerance.

 

[Penumbra]

I am not about my own conscience, I am about the word of God, God's word is and should be my concience.I am entitled To cast my vote according to my own beliefs and convictions, you may not agree but you cannot disallow it the same way I cannot disallow you from voting towards your own personal convictions whether they be from religious backgrounds or not.To say none should vote according to their religious beliefs is ridiculous, how then shall we vote? If Godly lives is the goal of man, how then shall we vote contrarily?

That didn't answer my question at all.

Besides, laws in the U.S. are prohibited from being based on religious reasons. Laws require secular reasons for existing.

 

[Lady B]

The Bible describes fire coming down to burn the town of what is viewed as homosexuals. If the image is taken literally some people fear retribution on the land where there are homosexual sex practices of some.

To be approving the marrying of homosexuals cannot be logically accomplished in one's conscience without first allowing homosexuality to be alright. The obvious solution to guard one's Christian conscious is to shut up and don't vote imo.

If there is fire from heaven I think it is safe to say it isn't for the gays.

This thread is annoying. I'm sorry Lady B to leave you alone to fend for yourself. I hate when they do that to me.

Thank you, I knew when I chose to enter the debate I would not be gaining frubles !

 

[Lady B]

That didn't answer my question at all.

Besides, laws in the U.S. are prohibited from being based on religious reasons. Laws require secular reasons for existing.

I see no point in answering your question when you have predestined it invalid

 

[Penumbra]

I see no point in answering your question when you have predestined it invalid

In what way have I predestined it as invalid?

By pointing out that your reasons for instituting a law to reduce the freedom of other people goes against the Constitution and the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution and is therefore unlawful without a secular reason?

Or any of the other statements that haven't been addressed?

 

[Lady B]

In what way have I predestined it as invalid?

By pointing out that your reasons for instituting a law to reduce the freedom of other people goes against the Constitution and the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution and is therefore unlawful without a secular reason?

Or any of the other statements that haven't been addressed?

By asking me what methods I use to support my belief that God is against homosexuality and then saying they are irrelevant anyway, pretty much spoils my chances for arguing my methods. I do not agree with you that my religious convictions should not be a part of my vote. On the contrary my vote should absolutely reflect God's will and I certainly cannot see a better reason to vote than this.

 

[Penumbra]

By asking me what methods I use to support my belief that God is against homosexuality and then saying they are irrelevant anyway, pretty much spoils my chances for arguing my methods.

They serve as multiple lines of reasoning you'd have to go through in series to have a legitimate argument to outlaw homosexual marriage.

You haven't worked through any of them yet.

I do not agree with you that my religious convictions should not be a part of my vote. On the contrary my vote should absolutely reflect God's will and I certainly cannot see a better reason to vote than this.

The Constitution and the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution (especially in Lemon v. Kurtzman 1971) is that any government action must have a secular purpose.

Why not just live your interpretation of your god's will in your life without imposing your interpretation of your god's will on other people without a secular reason?

 

[Lady B]

They serve as multiple lines of reasoning you'd have to go through in series to have a legitimate argument to outlaw homosexual marriage.

You haven't worked through any of them yet.

The Constitution and the Supreme Court's interpretation of the Constitution (especially in Lemon v. Kurtzman 1971) is that any government action must have a secular purpose.

Why not just live your interpretation of your god's will in your life without imposing your interpretation of your god's will on other people without a secular reason?

really? My vote is government action? No my vote is my own action. This argument is about government setting the rules according to their purpose or agendas, of which I am against. The constitution does not say I cannot vote according to my own personnel convictions religious or other.

 

[oldbadger]

The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta by Swami Prabhavananda, Revelations of Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda and the writings of Sri Swami Sivananda go more deeply into Christ's words and see them more clearly than Christians do. Isn't that odd (or sad for Christians)?

Yep..... I'm up for that. I've copied those titles and will be looking those up. Thankyou.

 

[oldbadger]

To be fair, I get your points, I do. I know I am not making many friends here but I hope I am not making enemy's by sharing my views.

You are not making enemies! You are with friends who respect you and think that you are very brave to hold this debate up as you have.