Christians, why do you hate Gays?

[Jainarayan]

Ha ha! You got it in one!! When Christians will finally throw off the Pauline yoke, and go back to Jesus's true teachings, then Christians will at last be trying to be like Jesus wanted them to be.

Paul even usurped Peter's authority to rule the church. Peter faded into the background and only lends his name to the "chair of St. Peter". Being away from Christianity for so long, taking many steps back, and focusing only on the words of Jesus and even delving into their true meanings, things become much clearer. It's true that Christianity is not Christianity but Paulianity or Paulism.

The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta by Swami Prabhavananda, Revelations of Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda and the writings of Sri Swami Sivananda go more deeply into Christ's words and see them more clearly than Christians do. Isn't that odd (or sad for Christians)?

 

[Lady B]

No, "it" doesn't. Some parts of it hold homosexuality as sin. But as I've pointed out, the "sin" isn't homosexuality. The sin is male rape. Rape is violent. perping on kids is violent. Love is never violent. Love is condoned by scriptural text -- and by the church.

symantics... The Christians who are voting against same sex marriage are not voting against rape or violence. they are voting against the sin which we believe to be Unholy and against God's word. Of course we all would vote against male rape, that is not the issue at all.

 

[sojourner]

If same sex marriage is the momentum, it would be the majority and the laws would be passed accordingly. You surely cannot blame conservatives and christians for showing up at the polls can you?

Just as they showed up at the polls to vote against suffrage and equal rights? Yes, I can blame them for that. Just as I can blame them for this most recent form of systemic violence.

 

[Onkara]

The Sermon on the Mount According to Vedanta by Swami Prabhavananda, Revelations of Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda and the writings of Sri Swami Sivananda go more deeply into Christ's words and see them more clearly than Christians do. Isn't that odd (or sad for Christians)?

Hi Jainarayan
Do the authors still see Jesus as God or as man?

 

[sojourner]

symantics... The Christians who are voting against same sex marriage are not voting against rape or violence. they are voting against the sin which we believe to be Unholy and against God's word. Of course we all would vote against male rape, that is not the issue at all.

Yeah, but it's not "semantics." It's what the texts say. Homosexuality was unknown to the biblical writers. What they were writing about was 1) forcible rape of one male by another, and 2) the practice of pedophilia -- the rape of young boys by adult males. The writers were patently not talking about consensual, loving relationships. Even though we moderns project that POV onto the texts.:foot:

 

[Jainarayan]

There is no contradiction, we have the right to vote in how we believe, same as homosexuals have the right to vote per their convictions, it is not the voters fault they are a majority and thus laws are passed based on the majoral vote. should some of the voters lie in their convictions to make it fair? is that what you want? would a homosexual go vote against same sex marriage if his vote was the majority would that be fair? It seems that your blaming christians for using their convictions to vote, but arent homosexuals doing the same?

You're just not getting the message... if you vote based on your religious beliefs, you are making laws based on your religious beliefs. I do not vote based on my religious beliefs. I (try to) live my personal and interpersonal life based on my religious beliefs, but I check them at the door of the polling place. I don't vote for same-sex marriage because Hindu scriptures have nothing to say about it; I vote for it because it is the right thing for a portion of the population, which includes me.

 

[fantome profane]

If same sex marriage is the momentum, it would be the majority and the laws would be passed accordingly. You surely cannot blame conservatives and christians for showing up at the polls can you?

Yes, I do blame them for it. It is true that people have the right to vote how they wish, but this does it exempt them from responsibility. Quite the contrary, people are reponsible for how they vote and I will blame them for the outcome.

Hypothetically if people voted in favour of slavery, I would blame them for it. I would call that a hateful bigoted act.

When people vote against equal rights that is a hateful bigoted action. And many Christians have committed just this hateful act, and many will do it again. And I do blame them for the discrimination that results from it.

 

[sojourner]

You're just not getting the message... if you vote based on your religious beliefs, you are making laws based on your religious beliefs. I do not vote based on my religious beliefs. I (try to) live my personal and interpersonal life based on my religious beliefs, but I check them at the door of the polling place. I don't vote for same-sex marriage because Hindu scriptures have nothing to say about it; I vote for it because it is the right thing for a portion of the population, which includes me.

Well said! Jesus never said, "Vote your religious conscience." But he did say to include the outcast. And Paul admonishes the (culturally) strong to defer to the weak.

 

[Drolefille]

There is no contradiction, we have the right to vote in how we believe, same as homosexuals have the right to vote per their convictions, it is not the voters fault they are a majority and thus laws are passed based on the majoral vote. should some of the voters lie in their convictions to make it fair? is that what you want? would a homosexual go vote against same sex marriage if his vote was the majority would that be fair? It seems that your blaming christians for using their convictions to vote, but arent homosexuals doing the same?

I want to ask a hypothetical. Lets say Christians are in the minority. And everyone else really dislikes them. If they voted that Christians were no longer allowed to be considered married by the state, or to meet on Sundays, would you say that "this is not the voter's fault that they are in a majority?" Or would you be seriously ticked off?

I hope you see that putting people's rights up to vote is a bad idea. How long would people have voted against the right of black Americans if the court system didn't get involved?

The comparison is that the church holds both as sin, not in degree but both things are considered sin, so asking the church to condone one can be asking for anything against The scriptures to be condoned.

But the church does not make the laws for our country. The church doesn't have to condone anything. You are ignoring that many Christian churches disagree with you about your interpretation of the Bible, fwiw.

I do not agree that the church is setting the laws. The voters set the law and we all have the right to vote do we not? should we go vote against our convictions to make it more fair?

Voting for same sex marriage does not affect you if you're not wanting to get married to someone of the same sex. What it does do is allow others to be happy. They're not your church members, and they're not going to become straight and non-practicing because you're denying them freedom. So you are causing harm to them by trying to force your church's rules upon them.

Why not vote to allow them the civil freedom to do what they wish, and pray for them to come to "God" in your church?

If same sex marriage is the momentum, it would be the majority and the laws would be passed accordingly. You surely cannot blame conservatives and christians for showing up at the polls can you?

If equal rights for women is the momentum then it would be in the majority right?
If equal rights for black Americans is the momentum then it would be in the majority right?
If equal rights for American Indians is the momentum then it would be in the majority right?

Again, do you want your rights to able to be taken away by voters who disapprove of you? If you don't then you cannot support the "majority rules" standpoint as a virtue.

And I do blame people, not for showing up, but for imposing their religious beliefs on my liberties when I am not a member of their religion.

symantics... The Christians who are voting against same sex marriage are not voting against rape or violence. they are voting against the sin which we believe to be Unholy and against God's word. Of course we all would vote against male rape, that is not the issue at all.

If the sin is the sex, then would you vote to send people to jail for same-sex acts? Because the sin isn't the marriage according to you. Voting against the marriage does nothing to stop same-sex encounters. I, for example, have has sex with a woman, and with a man and a woman at the same time. The fact that we were not married did not do anything to stop that.

Marriage isn't really about the sex. And if sex is the sin, then the marriage shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Lady B]

You're just not getting the message... if you vote based on your religious beliefs, you are making laws based on your religious beliefs. I do not vote based on my religious beliefs. I (try to) live my personal and interpersonal life based on my religious beliefs, but I check them at the door of the polling place. I don't vote for same-sex marriage because Hindu scriptures have nothing to say about it; I vote for it because it is the right thing for a portion of the population, which includes me.

exactly, you vote for what you think is right, as I do and as Christians and conservatives do, your view of right is based on your own views, My view is based on the bible.
If hindu scriptures did say same sex marriage is wrong, what then would be your vote? please people be honest, we all vote according to our convictions, according to what we belive is the truth, and we gain our knowledge of truth by God's word, not how the momentum is in our country.

 

[Jainarayan]

should we go vote against our convictions to make it more fair?

Let me put this as simply and clearly as I can...

Yes you should put your religious convictions aside and consider the issue viz. civil law, not religious beliefs. If you vote based on your religious convictions, you vote to impose them on others.

 

[sojourner]

Let me put this as simply and clearly as I can...

Yes you should put your religious convictions aside and consider the issue viz. civil law, not religious beliefs. If you vote based on your religious convictions, you vote to impose them on others.

You know, I was just about to say basically the same thing. If you don't believe in homosexual marriage, no one is forcing you to participate in it. But when you vote against it, it does force others to live with your religious convictions. and that's something I don't believe Jesus would have condoned.

 

[savagewind]

Freedom is mostly a personal belief.
Obedience is a religious belief.

Christians highly esteem freedom (which is political) but they will vote their religious belief which is against freedom.

Jehovah's Witnesses avoid the conflict They don't vote.

 

[Lady B]

Let me put this as simply and clearly as I can...

Yes you should put your religious convictions aside and consider the issue viz. civil law, not religious beliefs. If you vote based on your religious convictions, you vote to impose them on others.

and that statement can be turned around right? isnt your vote for same sex marriage imposing your convictions on others?

 

[Drolefille]

and that statement can be turned around right? isnt your vote for same sex marriage imposing your convictions on others?

No, because nothing requires you to get married to someone of the same sex.

I'd really like it if you read my previous response to you, I'm interested to see what you think.

 

[Jainarayan]

Hi Jainarayan
Do the authors still see Jesus as God or as man?

Somewhere in between. Though I haven't come across anything that indicates they see him as an avatar of God; at the very least, an enlightened being, a great yogi. Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Sivananda, Paramahansa Yogananda, Swami Vivekananda and others of their lines are generally seen as being universalist. In that case they would see Christ's teachings as a valid path to God. There is a verse from the Bhagavad Gita that can be taken to support that: "O Partha! [a name for Arjuna to whom Krishna is speaking] Whosoever worship Me through whatsoever path, I verily accept and bless them in that way. Men everywhere follow My path." 6.11

 

[sojourner]

Freedom is mostly a personal belief.
Obedience is a religious belief.

Christians highly esteem freedom (which is political) but they will vote their religious belief which is against freedom.

Jehovah's Witnesses avoid the conflict They don't vote.

Freedom is also a Christian belief -- especially freedom from captivity and oppression.

 

[Jainarayan]

If hindu scriptures did say same sex marriage is wrong, what then would be your vote? please people be honest, we all vote according to our convictions,

I answered that in another post. I would leave my religious beliefs outside the voting booth. If it's not apparent by now, I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. That is, no laws should be made or voted on based on any religious convictions or beliefs. I base my personal life on my scriptures, but it's not fair that I should impose them on others. I do not believe you share that position.

 

[Lady B]

To be fair, I get your points, I do. I know I am not making many friends here but I hope I am not making enemy's by sharing my views. Basically I do not agree in discrimination at all. I just think we all have the right to vote based on our convictions and God's word. Homosexuals do also, and If they become the majority and win their rights by a fair vote, I will have nothing to say against them. I will uphold the churches stand and continue to vote according to my beliefs as This is my right as a u.s. citizen. As far as U.S. laws are concerned we all have the power to make or break any issue in the ballads, so If this law will be passed it will be from the voters and it is your right to campaign and encourage your fellow man to turn out at the polls and win what you seek to win.

With that being said, The church is seperate from goverment and should not be seen as discriminating. The people who vote according to God's will are not being hatefull, they are being true to their God and cannot support what they feel to be contrary to His word.

 

[Jainarayan]

You know, I was just about to say basically the same thing. If you don't believe in homosexual marriage, no one is forcing you to participate in it. But when you vote against it, it does force others to live with your religious convictions. and that's something I don't believe Jesus would have condoned.

Agreed. I could probably find the chapter and verse, but suffice to say I think many of us know of the verse when he sends the apostles out, telling them that if no town would have them, shake even the dust of the town off their feet. I discount the "better for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town" tidbit as being hyperbole and metaphor. Something he was proficient at, given the time and place, and audience he was teaching. I believe he meant if the town wants nothing to do with their beliefs, so be it; leave them be. Moreover, he told the apostles to go out and make disciples of all nations, but he did not say anything about forced or imposed conversion or beliefs, or generally ******* people off!