Circumcision should be banned

[Rakhel]

Pathetic.

You remind me of someone who could come up with a good argument and figured the a one word comment would suffice....Ah yes,. My brother. I usually just figured he was referring to himself when he used the word "Pathetic" a lot.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

You remind me of someone who could come up with a good argument and figured the a one word comment would suffice....Ah yes,. My brother. I usually just figured he was referring to himself when he used the word "Pathetic" a lot.

An empty statement not backed up with fact is pathetic.
I like the sound of your brother.

 

[Rakhel]

Facts that refute what you believe therefore you want to find them pathetic.

Yeah right. "your religion is stupid and pathetic." Real nice defense.

And you call us pathetic

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Facts that refute what you believe therefore you want to find them pathetic.

Yeah right. "your religion is stupid and pathetic." Real nice defense.

And you call us pathetic

All religions are stupid and pathetic to varying degrees, Judaism is no exception.

I think you will find that I retorted with pathetic in response to an assertion that 'I did not know what I was talking about' without any supporting evidence.

That is pathetic..truly pathetic and tragic and sad.

No regrets....

 

[Caladan]

I'm not looking to have circumcision banned, but I do think it's strange that you would defend your right to choose your son's religion for him on the basis of "freedom".

Could be worse. he could have been brought up thinking that there is something wrong with his 'religion' or heritage.
trust me, whatever you find strange in other groups traditions, they would find double the faults in your group or personal life.
a good diplomacy is, unless a group of people poses a genuine threat to you, give them a space, and do not provoke them. that way, you will not wake up one day to find that after all is said and done, it is illegal for you in your own country to provoke this group by a revisioning of history for example, or various other inconvenient policies that would never have taken place if you took the time and thought really hard if its worth while for you to provoke certain individuals or groups. sometimes its better to have an ally or a friend who has different cultural norms than you, than provoking him to defend his natural right for self-preservation.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Could be worse. he could have brought up thinking that there is something wrong with his 'religion' or heritage.
trust me, whatever you find strange in other groups traditions, they would find double the faults in your group or personal life.
a good diplomacy is, unless a group of people poses a genuine threat to you, give them a space, and do not provoke them. that way, you will not wake up one day to find that after all is said and done, it is illegal for you in your own country to provoke this group by a revisioning of history for example, or various other inconvenient policies that would never have taken place if you took the time and thought really hard if its worth while for you to provoke certain individuals or groups. sometimes its better to have an ally or a friend who has different cultural norms than you, than provoking him to defend his natural right for self-preservation.

So we should turn a blind eye to the stoning of 15 year old adultresses in Sudan or Iran?

I think not...

I think religion is often a barrier to humanitarian progress...these barriers have to be destroyed...annihilated even...

 

[Caladan]

Well they act like it's such a virtue and obedience to God to circumcise their 8 day old who has no choice in the matter. It doesn't hurt them a bit to have their child circumcised. There's almost no effort involved. Some virtue...

I'm an atheist. and whenever I see a photo of an uncircumcised member, I thank the ancient Jewish doctor who thought of the brilliant idea of circumcision in the correct region to do it. oh btw. I was born in that region. maybe I would have developed annoying itch under my foreskin all those months I've spent in the desert and the field.
Oh, and by the way, you might find it hard to believe, but there are bigger problems in the world, whether it is with religion or politics than my circumcised member.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

It is understandable that circumcision developed in hot dry countries..but that goes to show the parochiality of religion...it is not applicable in temperate regions.

 

[Caladan]

So we should turn a blind eye to the stoning of 15 year old adultresses in Sudan or Iran?

Go ahead, sign up to the Airborne regiment, or the Royal Marines. change the world. at the end of the day, its people like me who used to pull the **** you are talking about. and even then, I'll tell you that a 15 year old girl dead by a dystopian regime has nothing to do with why you would mobilize thousands of soldiers to other nations. in fact, it would probably be one of the last things on the list.

I think religion is often a barrier to humanitarian progress...these barriers have to be destroyed...annihilated even...

Like I said. prove your bravery. and fight religion. however, professional soldiers today fight for one thing- economy. the economic stability and welfare of their state. no one gives a damn about uncut members, 15 year old shot girls, or Saddam Hussein.

 

[Ben Masada]

Pathetic.

I agree with you. It is really pathetic to speak when we don't know what we are saying.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I agree with you. It is really pathetic to speak when we don't know what we are saying.

You would know all about it of course.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Go ahead, sign up to the Airborne regiment, or the Royal Marines. change the world. at the end of the day, its people like me who used to pull the **** you are talking about. and even then, I'll tell you that a 15 year old girl dead by a dystopian regime has nothing to do with why you would mobilize thousands of soldiers to other nations. in fact, it would probably be one of the last things on the list.

I wont change the world by signing up and fighting for the man...I dont want to fight his dirty wars...however give me the reins of power and I will show you what is highest on my list...oh yes indeed.

Like I said. prove your bravery. and fight religion. however, professional soldiers today fight for one thing- economy. the economic stability and welfare of their state. no one gives a damn about uncut members, 15 year old shot girls, or Saddam Hussein.

I fully intend to fight religion and not just religion, all the false idols and Gods...
Professional soldiers fight wherever and whenever they are told to fight...they would fight for my dark crusade as quickly as they would fight for oil.

Back to reality however...

 

[Caladan]

I wont change the world by siging up and fighting for the man...I dont want to fight his dirty wars...however give me the reins of power and I will show you what is highest on my list...oh yes indeed.

If you are not willing to work hard to achieve any status of influence or power and only fantasize that father Lucifer will provide, I'm afraid that at the end of the day all you will be left with is your complaints, while those who 'serve the man' will progress at a frightening and alarming rate, making your complaints pile themselves higher and higher.

I fully intend to fight religion and not just religion, all the false idols.
Professional soldiers fight wherever they are told to fight...they would fight for my dark crusade as quickly as they would fight for oil.

If you can make a good offer. you are probably right.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

If you are not willing to work hard to achieve any status of influence or power and only fantasize that father Lucifer will provide, I'm afraid that at the end of the day all you will be left with is your complaints, while those who 'serve the man' will progress at a frightening and alarming rate, making your complaints pile themselves higher and higher.

I have no such fantasies...my beliefs do not work like that.

I will not however turn to politics...if I ever get into that kind of position...it will be down to some kind of coup.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

If you can make a good offer. you are probably right.

My offer?

World unity government.



No more wars to fight...just policing.

Right thats enough...I think I may have strayed into the realms of madness...must be bedtime.

 

[Ben Masada]

You would know all about it of course.

Thanks, I probably would.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Could be worse. he could have been brought up thinking that there is something wrong with his 'religion' or heritage.
trust me, whatever you find strange in other groups traditions, they would find double the faults in your group or personal life.

I think you missed my point, so here it is more bluntly: when a person chooses his child's religion for him as an infant, he is robbing (or attempting to rob) his child of the freedom to do so later. Calling the parent's right to do this "freedom" is to undercut the idea of what freedom means, IMO.

Infant circumcision definitely isn't the worst slight to freedom out there, but Levite's argument certainly does contain a logical contradiction.

And if I'm infringing on the rights of a child, by all means call me on it. I'd better have a very good reason for doing it.

a good diplomacy is, unless a group of people poses a genuine threat to you, give them a space, and do not provoke them. that way, you will not wake up one day to find that after all is said and done, it is illegal for you in your own country to provoke this group by a revisioning of history for example, or various other inconvenient policies that would never have taken place if you took the time and thought really hard if its worth while for you to provoke certain individuals or groups.

Wait one minute: are you saying that if a person says publicly that circumcision is harmful, they're supporting holocaust denial? It seems to me that this is what you're suggesting; if so, this is a ludicrous example of the slippery slope fallacy.

sometimes its better to have an ally or a friend who has different cultural norms than you, than provoking him to defend his natural right for self-preservation.

If simply voicing one's opinion is considered "provoking", then the friendship is probably a lost cause.

Again: I'm not advocating that circumcision be banned. However, if anyone asks me my opinion of the practice, I've got no problem in saying that I'm not in favour of it.

As an expression of religious identification, I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike infant baptism. If I'm opposed to imaginary circumcision (as in baptism), why would I be supportive of real circumcision?

And when we're talking about it as a cosmetic procedure outside of the religious context, I think it's entirely unnecessary and of no quantifiable benefit. I'm certainly not in favour of parents subjecting their kids to cosmetic body modification before the kids themselves can consent. This applies to getting little girls' ears pierced and applies even more to circumcizing infant boys.

 

[Caladan]

I think you missed my point, so here it is more bluntly: when a person chooses his child's religion for him as an infant, he is robbing (or attempting to rob) his child of the freedom to do so later. Calling the parent's right to do this "freedom" is to undercut the idea of what freedom means, IMO.

In other words. lets all leave our children in the woods after they are born and let a stray she-Wolf raise them, who knows... maybe they will become mighty rulers one day.

Wait one minute: are you saying that if a person says publicly that circumcision is harmful, they're supporting holocaust denial? It seems to me that this is what you're suggesting; if so, this is a ludicrous example of the slippery slope fallacy.

This thread has a very blunt title as well, it reads: 'circumcision should be banned'. lets project it on reality. if a legislator started to lobby for a law to be passed that bans circumcision, and people start to write their opinions about it in the media, for and against, then the common citizens start to debate about it between themselves. the aftermath is pretty evident. the group which will be effected by it, would use all its resources and influence to make the regulation fall in congress vote. not only that, but the next thing that would probably happen is making the topic a taboo, in the media, politics, society, judicial system, etc.
while previously no one was bothered by it in the least.
My agenda is simple. there is nothing wrong with being diplomatic. I hate many things about other people, but I never express it, not in person, or over the internet, unless I am provoked to do it.
I guess its just human nature. you can never realize what people sensitivities are unless you try to 'educate' them about their barbarism. when its all said and done, I think that Jewish society, at least in North America has done very well for itself, it may cut off the foreskin of its boys. but for the most part it has been in the forefront of liberal thinking, human rights, democracy, progressive acceptance of LGBT communities, flourishing academic and scientific contribution for the greater good of the general public.
I think these are enough to make people consider, that maybe they might as well overlook the penis thing.

If simply voicing one's opinion is considered "provoking", then the friendship is probably a lost cause.

We have different standards. I have never 'voiced my opinion' in such a way that I have told a friend he is raising a son the wrong way, and he should not pass down to him his tradition. in fact I believe completely opposite, I believe passing your heritage and experience is one of the greatest and inspiring things. for a person to grow up with a strong sense of identity and belonging to a distinct community (while at the same time being a productive member of the general public) is a driving force for great productivity.

As an expression of religious identification, I dislike it for many of the same reasons I dislike infant baptism. If I'm opposed to imaginary circumcision (as in baptism), why would I be supportive of real circumcision?

You know. I probably think that baptism is ridiculous too. however I will probably change my mind when a Christian explains it to me, or when he shares with me the cultural and maybe personal importance of it all, for him, or his family. after all its not like they drown the kids.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In other words. lets all leave our children in the woods after they are born and let a stray she-Wolf raise them, who knows... maybe they will become mighty rulers one day.

I really don't follow your line of argument here. The fact that I disagree with this practice doesn't mean that I don't think we shouldn't bother to raise children at all.

This thread has a very blunt title as well, it reads: 'circumcision should be banned'.

And I've said many times that I disagree with this, so I don't see why you're attributing the consequences of a ban on circumcision to anything I've said.

My agenda is simple. there is nothing wrong with being diplomatic. I hate many things about other people, but I never express it, not in person, or over the internet, unless I am provoked to do it.

I felt provoked.

The thing that pulled me into this thread is when Tarheeler made the comment that there is nothing bad about circumcision. This just isn't true. Maybe you feel that the good outweighs the bad, but that's still not the same thing.

I guess its just human nature. you can never realize what people sensitivities are unless you try to 'educate' them about their barbarism. when its all said and done, I think that Jewish society, at least in North America has done very well for itself, it may cut of the foreskin of its boys. but for the most part it has bean in the forefront of liberal thinking, human rights, democracy, progressive acceptance of LGBT communities, flourishing academic and scientific contribution for the greater good of the general public.
I think these are enough to make people consider, that maybe they might as well overlook the penis thing.

I do think that many (most?) Jews are good people, and these sorts of things will factor into my judgement of someone as a person. However, when considering whether circumcision itself is positive or negative, I don't think that the character of the people doing it is especially relevant.

I don't think that Jews circumcise their sons to be cruel to them. I think they're following what they think are the best of intentions... but this doesn't stop me from seeing the practice as, on the whole, negative.

Frankly, in the circumcision debate, at least in North America, I think that Jewish society is a secondary consideration. The vast majority of circumcisions here are done for cosmetic reasons, misguided concerns about health, or because people just assume that it's done as a matter of course. Circumcisions for religious or cultural reasons are the exception here, not the norm.

We have different standards. I have never 'voiced my opinion' in such a way that I have told a friend he is raising a son the wrong way, and he should not pass down to him his tradition. in fact I believe completely opposite, I believe passing your heritage and experience is one of the greatest and inspiring things. for a person to grow up with a strong sense of identity and belonging to a distinct community (while at the same time being a productive member of the general public) is a driving force for great productivity.

When did I say a parent shouldn't "pass their heritage and experience" to their children? I'm all for that - give the child everything he needs to know and appreciate his culture, and when he's old enough, let him decide to belong to it or not.

You know. I probably think that baptism is ridiculous too. however I will probably change my mind when a Christian explains it to me, or when he shares with me the cultural and maybe personal importance of it all, for him, or his family. after all its not like they drown the kids.

Baptism is a bit of a closer concern for me, since my wife is Catholic and, according to her church, is obligated to have her children baptized. Since those children will also be my children, I've given the matter quite a bit of thought, and I've come to the realization that I find the idea that my children will be declared "Catholic" as infants to be very disagreable... and rather absurd, IMO. Would we label a baby "communist" or "Republican"? Probably not. At least, I hope not.

I don't see how labelling an infant "Jewish" is any less absurd. Still, I see circumcision as a minor issue, especially when it's done for cultural reasons instead of religious ones... definitely down the list from, say, parents who decide that their children will have a particular career whether they like it or not.

 

[Tarheeler]

I felt provoked.

The thing that pulled me into this thread is when Tarheeler made the comment that there is nothing bad about circumcision.

I have no idea where you got that from. I've not made a comment that even resembled that.

I agree. That's a factor a lot of people tend to overlook.

The vast majority of men in the US are circumcised. The fact that I and every man in my family is was a big factor in deciding to have my sons circumcised.