Circumcision should be banned

[Caladan]

And now in Japanese:

[youtube]uSOXZrLadS0[/youtube]
YouTube - Fiddler on the Roof (Tradition:Japanese)

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Thanks, I probably would.

Oh it wasnt a compliment...

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I said I presumed it was ignorance.

But if it is not, then I must say I think it a little odd that it's the Jews and the Muslims whose religions mandate circumcision, and I haven't seen any large numbers of Jews or Muslims protesting their "involuntary" circumcision. Rather, I have seen a whole hell of a lot of non-Jews and non-Muslims telling Jews and Muslims what they ought to be doing in their religion, and that what they are doing is wrong.

What you are doing is wrong in many eyes, like it or not....you are mutilating your children for religious reasons which in the secular world is highly unnacceptable.

I don't call that at all out of the realm of anti-Semitism. I also call it unbelievably self-righteous, arrogant, repressive, and fatuously heavy-handed. As far as I know, neither Jews nor Muslims demand that non-Jews/non-Muslims be circumcised. And yet others, upon whom Jews and Muslims have made no demands, nor expressed any particular interest in the way they raise their children, have the unmitigated gall to come in and say that the way that we practice our religion is immoral?!

Call it what you like..appealing to anti semitism is truly laughable and immoral...especially as it isnt just jews that circumcise.

I'm sorry, I am not supposed to be incredibly offended by this? I am supposed to just calmly sit back and say that it is perfectly acceptable for people who are not Jewish to trash something central in Judaism, and we Jews ought to realize the error of our ways and make ourselves into whatever it is our detractors think we should be?!

Yes 'you' should respect secular governments around the world in which Jews live under...they are not there to kow tow to your religious aberrations...do what you like in Israel.

If that's not anti-Semitism, I don't know what is. And if others can't recognize it for that, then they are kidding themselves. Anytime someone comes in and says to a culture, "We know better than you. Your culture's choice's are wrong. You should change to suit our ideas," there had better be the equivalent of genocide happening to merit that. Because if people are not losing life and limb, that kind of arrogant cultural repression is intolerance, it is bigotry, and it will not be taken sitting down by Jews.

Pathetic nonsense...why should I tolerate child mutilation in my nation?
I don't care what your religion is..your religion means nothing to me..absolutely nothing...couldnt care less about your religious rights...especially if they involve mutilating babies.

Jews have taken crap because non-Jews didn't care for our ideas, our culture, our practice of religion, or the way we looked or dressed or happened to be walking that day. No more. This time there's no passive waiting until it comes to some kind of horror that ends up in history lessons. This time when people pull that kind of crap, we stand up for ourselves and our culture and our religion, and we don't take it.

Laughable, childish, knee jerk reactionism...

We circumcise our sons because that is what Jews do. That is what we believe. That is our way. We don't ask it of anyone who's not Jewish. If you're not Jewish, we don't give a damn what your son's penis looks like. We circumcise because that is our covenant with God. We circumcise because we love our children enough to pass on to them the legacy of covenant, community, and belonging, the inheritance of wisdom and devotion that begins with those few drops of blood. Circumcision is a mark of something wonderful and holy to us.

You circumcise because your religion says you should...however I don't care about your covenant, it means nothing to me and like any barbaric religious practice it should be banned in secular nations.

If you don't like it, if you don't believe in God, if you think you've got the original grade-A guidebook to moral perfection, we don't care. There's a rolling donut out there. You know what to do with it.

Yeah?

You know what you can do as well eh?

 

[Caladan]

What you are doing is wrong in many eyes, like it or not....you are mutilating your children for religious reasons which in the secular world is highly unnacceptable.

I can tell you that most people around the world would consider you 'juvenile' for defining yourself as 'Luciferian', 'Gnostic', etc. most people in schools around the west would consider you a 'geek' I would even say. however, not once, in the history of RF have I seen a Jewish person starting a thread criticizing Luciferians or Gnostics.

Yes 'you' should respect secular governments around the world in which Jews live under...they are not there to kow tow to your religious aberrations...do what you like in Israel.

Jews are citizens like any other. no one is kow towing to their religion. and just like any other citizens, they will fight for their rights for freedom of religion and welfare. so far I see you and other members wanting Jewish citizens of your nation to kow tow to your 'standards'.
btw, in Israel, you would be free to be uncircumcised, you would have your gay marriage recognized, you could worship in a mosque, a church, or go to the next CD store and buy Black Metal CDs. and most people would think nothing of it.

Pathetic nonsense...why should I tolerate child mutilation in my nation?
I don't care what your religion is..

Well. what can I say. whoever is inexperienced enough to start a social struggle against equal citizens of his own nation, who were born there, lived there for some centuries and who are happened to be Jewish, should expect a legal battle.
if you are willing to go to court or parliament because you think Jewish citizens are mutilating your nation, be prepared to face the music.
I can tell you that most Jewish citizens would love the challenge. there are few things that Jews enjoy more than judicial challenges, social debates, and the use of media.

Laughable, childish, knee jerk reactionism...

You are right. no Jew has ever blew up a train in London or any other European city. in fact no Jewish citizen has committed acts of terror in the UK or Europe. the Jewish citizens will take the fight to court and parliament, and make an educational lesson of the whole ordeal for the future posterity of the whole nation. however, members of other religions who also circumcise their boys might start blowing themselves up around the streets of this lovely and beautiful city, London.
the irony is. that the British services will consult Jews from Israel what to do about it. let me upgrade that, CIRCUMCISED Jews from Israel.

You circumcise because your religion says you should...however I don't care about your covenant, it means nothing to me and like any barbaric religious practice it should be banned in secular nations.

Plenty of secular nations (Israel included) think nothing of it. like I said, if you feel so strongly about it, gather a lobby or join one, and start rolling your legal case.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Perhaps. in that case there is no reason to freak people out with forcing the unknown on them. mind you I am not saying that is what you actively do, but its a projection on the origin of this thread and whichever bodies around the world which support the notion of banning circumcision.

I think you're taking things a step further than can be really justified.

My position has been that I won't try to stop others from circumcising their children, but except in a case of real medical need, I'm against it for my own kids. It seems to me that what you're saying is that if I was in a society where circumcision was done as a matter of course, if I don't have my child circumcised, I'm committing some sort of offense against society. Is that really what you're trying to say?

Never have I, in 31 years of living in Israel ever knew another guy or family who had any such problems.

On one level that's not surprising, since serious complications are rare. Based on the statistics I found and quoted earlier, the rate of complications in Canada is somewhere around 34 to 45 cases per 1000. Even the other published range I found (2% to 10%), while IMO worryingly high, is low enough that a person could go their whole life without actually meeting someone who had had a complication from circumcision.

On another level, though, I wonder if you're not just not attributing effects of circumcision to their actual cause, or just not aware of them. The article I quoted earlier also stated this:

Effect of timing of circumcision

An epidemiological study of UTI during the first year of life involving 169 children born in Israel found that 48% (27/56) of the male infants presented with UTI within 12 days after ritual circumcision.51 The incidence of UTI among male infants was significantly higher just after circumcision (from 9 to 20 days of life) than during the rest of the first month of life and significantly higher in the first month of life than during the rest of the year. After the immediate postcircumcision period, the incidence rate of UTI dropped to a level comparable to that reported among circumcised male infants in the United States. Among the 113 female infants, the episodes of infection were evenly distributed throughout the first year of life, except that the incidence was lower during the first month. This study suggests that the method and the timing of circumcision also may be important factors to consider.

Source: Neonatal Circumcision Revisited

Babies get urinary tract infections with or without circumcision, so a person wouldn't necessarily link the two when a baby gets diagnosed with a UTI the week after circumcision. And if you ask an adult whether he had any issues with his circumcision, he probably wouldn't think to include an infection that was cleared up quickly with antibiotics... if he even knows that it happened at all.

Still, with nearly half of the babies in the study getting a UTI immediately after being circumcised at 8 days old, and there being a huge spike in infection rates immediate after circumcision that doesn't occur in females or uncircumcised males, I think it's clear that the circumcision procedure does carry with it a significant risk of infection. It's just that with modern antibiotics, we've become pretty good at dealing with infections.

*NODS*. despite this. Jewish or Muslim boys are also part of their own community.

Sure, but all I'm trying to point out is that for many communities, circumcision doesn't matter, or is the exception rather than the rule. The "you've got to do it or the other kids will make fun of your son" argument doesn't really apply outside cultures that already do circumcision for other reasons anyhow.

read my first line in the paragraph you replied to: after thousands of years of Jewish tradition it has become a natural part of Jewish existence.

I got it the first time. I guess I just don't accept it as a good reason: "we do it because we do it" just doesn't work for me. If you're trying to make some larger point about cultural history or something, then so far it's not really coming across.

If it makes any difference. while a great deal of the theatrical act around the circumcision carries a ritualistic atmosphere and to many people a religious ideology of great importance. is it first and foremost a cultural practice.

I thought that "first and foremost", it was a sign of a covenant with God. No? That seems inherently religious to me.

You realize I was kidding, right?

I wasn't sure whether you were completely joking, or whether you were laughing off something you actually noticed around you.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I can tell you that most people around the world would consider you 'juvenile' for defining yourself as 'Luciferian', 'Gnostic', etc. most people in schools around the west would consider you a 'geek' I would even say. however, not once, in the history of RF have I seen a Jewish person starting a thread criticizing Luciferians or Gnostics.

Do you actually think I care what 'people' think Caladan?

Call me a geek and insult me to my face

I will criticise Jews if I want to..and christians and muslims and whatever..I don't give a crap!

Jews are citizens like any other. no one is kow towing to their religion. and just like any other citizens, they will fight for their rights for freedom of religion and welfare. so far I see you and other members wanting Jewish citizens of your nation to kow tow to your 'standards'.
btw, in Israel, you would be free to be uncircumcised, you would have your gay marriage recognized, you could worship in a mosque, a church, or go to the next CD store and buy Black Metal CDs. and most people would think nothing of it.

What has that got to do with anything?
I said I don't care what people do in Israel or Iran...circumcise away...but not in my lands.

Well. what can I say. whoever is inexperienced enough to start a social struggle against equal citizens of his own nation, who were born there, lived there for some centuries and who are happened to be Jewish, should expect a legal battle.
if you are willing to go to court or parliament because you think Jewish citizens are mutilating your nation, be prepared to face the music.
I can tell you that most Jewish citizens would love the challenge. there are few things that Jews enjoy more than judicial challenges, social debates, and the use of media.

Obviously resistance to a law banning the circumcision of children would be expected...but I would not be afraid to start such a legislative process.
I have no concerns there..at all.

You are right. no Jew has ever blew up a train in London or any other European city. in fact no Jewish citizen has committed acts of terror in the UK or Europe. the Jewish citizens will take the fight to court and parliament, and make an educational lesson of the whole ordeal for the future posterity of the whole nation. however, members of other religions who also circumcise their boys might starting blowing themselves up around the streets of this lovely and beautiful city.
the irony is. that the British services will consult Jews from Israel what to do about it.

Terrorists will do what terrorists will do...the overall threat they pose is pathetic....we catch them we shoot them dead end of.

Plenty of secular nations (Israel included) think nothing of it. like I said, if you feel so strongly about it, gather a lobby or join one, and start rolling your legal case.

Well this is a debate site isnt it?

Or have you lost sight of that caladan?

 

[Caladan]

I think you're taking things a step further than can be really justified.

My position has been that I won't try to stop others from circumcising their children, but except in a case of real medical need, I'm against it for my own kids. It seems to me that what you're saying is that if I was in a society where circumcision was done as a matter of course, if I don't have my child circumcised, I'm committing some sort of offense against society. Is that really what you're trying to say?

Not really. I'm bringing two key issues. one, in a Jewish society, not circumcising a boy will needlessly make him 'different' from the rest of the boys. in a whole nation which circumcise its boys, and have been for thousands of years, I wouldn't call the father who does that a maverick, I would roll my eyes for his superior and progressive anal retentiveness.
second. no one will force circumcision on you or your boys if you ever live here. unless you want to convert into Judaism in a way which is recognized by the Chief Rabbinate, and even then no one will force you, it will simply be a criteria if you are serious about it.

On one level that's not surprising, since serious complications are rare. Based on the statistics I found and quoted earlier, the rate of complications in Canada is somewhere around 34 to 45 cases per 1000.s

I dont really 'buy' these studies. I do not know how non Jewish communities do it, but in modern Israel and North America, many people will do it under medical or clinical supervision or standards. that may not apply to other communities though. or perhaps the complications are not as dramatic as the article presents them.

Sure, but all I'm trying to point out is that for many communities, circumcision doesn't matter, or is the exception rather than the rule. The "you've got to do it or the other kids will make fun of your son" argument doesn't really apply outside cultures that already do circumcision for other reasons anyhow.

You are right. but we are talking about Jewish (and Muslim) cultures.
no boy wants to be pushed out of his community before he even started.

I got it the first time. I guess I just don't accept it as a good reason: "we do it because we do it" just doesn't work for me. If you're trying to make some larger point about cultural history or something, then so far it's not really coming across.

What can I say. we do it because we do it. its a natural and simple reality here, no one gives a thought. its just the way it is. it has caused us no problems, other than Gestapo troops stripping down men in the streets of Berlin to see if they have been circumcised or not, in the previous century.

I thought that "first and foremost", it was a sign of a covenant with God. No? That seems inherently religious to me.

Many Jews and Israelis do it because, 'we just do it'. there is nothing abnormal about it. it is the norm and the standard. many Jews who consider it as a covenant with God perhaps an even better uplifting baggage attached to it than the rest of us, who do it because of a primitive initiation rite of a boy into the male community of our society.

I wasn't sure whether you were completely joking, or whether you were laughing off something you actually noticed around you.

In other case, I was not expecting the serious post you replied it with.
In my society it is the norm to make fun of yourselves and all stereotypes about you.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I said I presumed it was ignorance.

But if it is not, then I must say I think it a little odd that it's the Jews and the Muslims whose religions mandate circumcision, and I haven't seen any large numbers of Jews or Muslims protesting their "involuntary" circumcision.

Since they're generally taught from birth that circumcision is a good thing, is that really surprising?

And in the vast majority of cases, yes, circumcision is no big deal for the person circumcised. But in, for instance, the rare case where complications from circumcision causes the loss of the glans (which is rare but does happen) ask that guy whether he would have preferred not to have been circumcised.

Rather, I have seen a whole hell of a lot of non-Jews and non-Muslims telling Jews and Muslims what they ought to be doing in their religion, and that what they are doing is wrong.

I don't call that at all out of the realm of anti-Semitism. I also call it unbelievably self-righteous, arrogant, repressive, and fatuously heavy-handed. As far as I know, neither Jews nor Muslims demand that non-Jews/non-Muslims be circumcised. And yet others, upon whom Jews and Muslims have made no demands, nor expressed any particular interest in the way they raise their children, have the unmitigated gall to come in and say that the way that we practice our religion is immoral?!

I'm sorry, I am not supposed to be incredibly offended by this? I am supposed to just calmly sit back and say that it is perfectly acceptable for people who are not Jewish to trash something central in Judaism, and we Jews ought to realize the error of our ways and make ourselves into whatever it is our detractors think we should be?!

If that's not anti-Semitism, I don't know what is. And if others can't recognize it for that, then they are kidding themselves. Anytime someone comes in and says to a culture, "We know better than you. Your culture's choice's are wrong. You should change to suit our ideas," there had better be the equivalent of genocide happening to merit that. Because if people are not losing life and limb, that kind of arrogant cultural repression is intolerance, it is bigotry, and it will not be taken sitting down by Jews.

I am opposed to any sort of ceremony where an infant is deemed to be a lifetime member of a religion. Most of the time, the ceremony that I have in mind is infant baptism, but most of the objections I have to that practice apply to ritual circumcision as well.

Given my feelings on the larger issue, do you expect me to have one standard for Jews and one for everyone else? If the fact that I refuse to do this, i.e. to literally discriminate on the basis of whether someone is Jewish, is called "anti-Semitism", then I think you've diluted the word to the point where it has no meaning.

I'm not going to take away your legal rights to raise your children as you see fit, but if someone asks me for my opinion of circumcision, I'm sure not going to lie and say that I think it's a good thing.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Since they're generally taught from birth that circumcision is a good thing, is that really surprising?

And in the vast majority of cases, yes, circumcision is no big deal for the person circumcised. But in, for instance, the rare case where complications from circumcision causes the loss of the glans (which is rare but does happen) ask that guy whether he would have preferred not to have been circumcised.


I am opposed to any sort of ceremony where an infant is deemed to be a lifetime member of a religion. Most of the time, the ceremony that I have in mind is infant baptism, but most of the objections I have to that practice apply to ritual circumcision as well.

Given my feelings on the larger issue, do you expect me to have one standard for Jews and one for everyone else? If the fact that I refuse to do this, i.e. to literally discriminate on the basis of whether someone is Jewish, is called "anti-Semitism", then I think you've diluted the word to the point where it has no meaning.

I'm not going to take away your legal rights to raise your children as you see fit, but if someone asks me for my opinion of circumcision, I'm sure not going to lie and say that I think it's a good thing.

:clap

 

[Caladan]

Do you actually think I care what 'people' think Caladan?

Call me a geek and insult me to my face

I will criticise Jews if I want to..and christians and muslims and whatever..I don't give a crap!

I guess I should give you heads up that most members here do not appreciate trolling and report it ad infinitum until the annoyance has been removed. if you joined another forum to 'not give a crap' about other people's long held heritage, and to waste their time, you wont win any crowds here.

What has that got to do with anything?
I said I don't care what people do in Israel or Iran...circumcise away...but not in my lands.

It is not your land more than it is of a Jewish or Muslim citizen.

Obviously resistance to a law banning the circumcision of children would be expected...but I would not be afraid to start such a legislative process.
I have no concerns there..at all.

Good. tell me how it develops. if you need any legal counselling I know some good lawyers.

Terrorists will do what terrorists will do...the overall threat they pose is pathetic....we catch them we shoot them dead end of.

So far British citizens and other Europeans have been murdered and are still murdered by terrorists who have been 'provoked' by far minor things than banning the most basic practices of the overall religion they happen to practice. if you are willing to take the collateral damage of your adventure, namely 'a few' other citizens of your nation blown up in the tube, and the whole cell phone system and underground system shut down for a couple of days, with all its economic and social implications, be sure that you also have a very good professional advice from the Israeli security services. perhaps the whole ordeal will actually be beneficial for the Israeli economy. after all its just, business. isn't it?

Well this is a debate site isnt it?

Or have you lost sight of that caladan?

Funny. I was sure that is what we are doing. debating. or have YOU lost sight of that my fluffy Luciferian friend.

 

[Flankerl]

What you are doing is wrong in many eyes, like it or not....you are mutilating your children for religious reasons which in the secular world is highly unnacceptable.

If male circumcision is mutilating i dont want to know what you'd call female "circumcision". You know thats a real problem unlike male circumcision.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If male circumcision is mutilating i dont want to know what you'd call female "circumcision". You know thats a real problem unlike male circumcision.

Female circumcision is one practice that I would ban. It's illegal here, and I'm glad it is.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

If male circumcision is mutilating i dont want to know what you'd call female "circumcision". You know thats a real problem unlike male circumcision.

I would call it mutilation as well..and it is a problem.

You might not call male mutilation a problem..but then you are female...so I guess you are bound to be apathetic.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Female circumcision is one practice that I would ban. It's illegal here, and I'm glad it is.

Illegal here too.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I would call it mutilation as well..and it is a problem.

You might not call male mutilation a problem..but then you are female...so I guess you are bound to be apathetic.

It's not the same thing, and it's not about sexism.

For an analogy to female "circumcision", imagine having your glans cut off. If anyone was ritually doing that to boys, I'd want it banned, too.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I guess I should give you heads up that most members here do not appreciate trolling and report it ad infinitum until the annoyance has been removed. if you joined another forum to 'not give a crap' about other people's long held heritage, and to waste their time, you wont win any crowds here.

Laughing Out Loud..that was amusing.

Like I said couldn't care less...not here to win friends

It is not your land more than it is of a Jewish or Muslim citizen.

If it is secular then it is secular...try to understand.

Good. tell me how it develops. if you need any legal counselling I know some good lawyers.

No thanks I know plenty.

So far British citizens and other Europeans have been murdered and are still murdered by terrorists who have been 'provoked' by far minor things than banning the most basic practices of the overall religion they happen to practice. if you are willing to take the collateral damage of your adventure, namely 'a few' other citizens of your nation blown up in the tube, and the whole cell phone system and underground system shut down for a couple of days, with all its economic and social implications, be sure that you also have a very good professional advice from the Israeli security services. perhaps the whole ordeal will actually be beneficial for the Israeli economy. after all its just, business. isn't it?

I dont believe in appeasement..you might do..good for you...see how far that gets you.

Funny. I was sure that is what we are doing. debating. or have YOU lost sight of that my fluffy Luciferian friend.

I am not your friend

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

It's not the same thing, and it's not about sexism.

For an analogy to female "circumcision", imagine having your glans cut off. If anyone was ritually doing that to boys, I'd want it banned, too.

I dont think I said it was the same thing LOL

I know what female circumcision entails...thanks.

 

[Flankerl]

Female circumcision is one practice that I would ban. It's illegal here, and I'm glad it is.

Illegal here too.

And still practiced all over the world even where its banned.
How about fighting a real problem?

I would call it mutilation as well..and it is a problem.

You might not call male mutilation a problem..but then you are female...so I guess you are bound to be apathetic.

Of course iam bound to be apathetic. Just because iam a girl. Of course. Because women are obviosly apathetic to something concerning men.



You do realise that female "circumcision" is on a whole other level than male circumcision ever will be? Even if a man has most of his foreskin removed(for example because of phimosis... because sometimes i think that no one here realises that this still exists) his condition isnt even close to female "circumcision" because it doesnt affect him.
Its not comparable at all.

You want to know whats comparable to female "circumcision"? Sewing the urinary meatus together so the person wouldnt be able to got to the toilet without crying the whole day.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

You do realise that female "circumcision" is on a whole other level than male circumcision ever will be? Even if a man has most of his foreskin removed(for example because of phimosis... because sometimes i think that no one here realises that this still exists) his condition isnt even close to female "circumcision" because it doesnt affect him.
Its not comparable at all.

You want to know whats comparable to female "circumcision"? Sewing the urinary meatus together so the person wouldnt be able to got to the toilet without crying the whole day.

I never said it was comparable except in definition of mutilation.

Female circumsicion is far more serious than male circumsicion but it is a logical fallacy to ignore male circumsicion because of that fact.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

And still practiced all over the world even where its banned.
How about fighting a real problem?

I would fight both problems...with vigour.

You might not see male (child) circumsicion as a problem but I do...and I really don't care if you don't...I really don't.

My opinion (regarding the children) is the only one that matters to me...arrogant maybe...so what of it?