Claims vs. Beliefs

[stvdv]

There should be no need to explain or defend any further, but there will be more explaining because their egos will not allow them to accept my explanation.

Aha, there is the bottleneck why they keep bugging you

I usually don't expect others to accept my explanation (exceptions are there of course...If I claim "1+1=2" I expect that most Atheist will accept this, but I am not surprised if some won't)

I am totally fine if they disagree with my explanation, view, opinion. The more they disagree the better, esp. if they offer their personal (not Google narrow) view, but usually they don't have one (which I understand) and only try to debate my opinion. Which they are free to do and I am free to not entertain them

The moment you can ditch "your expectation of them to accept your explanation" they usually won't bug you anymore is my experience

And that was exactly what I meant when I said before "that's not the reason they keep bugging you all the time"

So, after all you have it all in your own hand...you are the creator of them doing this. You are the one responsible that they keep asking you for prove, or don't you agree @Trailblazer?
(This I could kind of prove to you, but I think this will do)

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Yeah, but I that I want to live, is without proof, truth or evidence. That is the second problem. We both trust the universe to be epistemologically fair, but that doesn't tell us how we ought to live.

You jump straight from "that I want to live" in the first sentence, to "how we ought to live" in the third sentence. I said nothing at all about "how we ought to live." Didn't even touch on it. All I pointed out was that you need that glass of water. You do. You simply must partake. You can't not. You're stuck. Is that me telling you HOW to drink that water? No.

And that's, I think, where your ultimate gambit is completely flawed. You constantly come back to everyone, saying that their claims that what is "more objectively true" (as in, can be shared by multiple observers and is not dependent on one "subject") is somehow unimportant because there is so much subjectivity even in the perceiving of it. So, you are confusing people informing you that you MUST admit that certain things are as true for you as they are for themselves (and, by extension, that some things do NOT achieve that level of reality), with their informing you that you MUST live according to some prescribed ideal. That isn't what it's about. It's about admitting what is closer to being detected as "objective" and what is further away. Again... you need that glass of water... but even I can easily admit that it doesn't matter the color of the glass the water comes in.

You have only solved part of the problem and you have given no evidence that all that matters, is simply to live.

Do you want to live, Mikkel? Case closed the moment that question is answered, I believe. And how can I be so confident of what you will answer? Isn't that a wonder?

So please with truth, proof, evidence or whatever tell us all how we ought to live. What is the meaning of life?

Again... I am not trying to tell you what color the glass needs to be when you take that drink of water. Only that you accept that the water is as real for you as it is for me. That flavor you are tasting when you take that drink, however? That's not as real for me as it is for you. Do you understand? I don't have to even accept that the water has a flavor, but still... pass me the cup when you are done, please.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are ultimately responsible for what you say.

So are you.

Do you believe in the premise of the simple statement above, or no?

What premise? I see no premise in the statement above.

Are you not responsible for propagating a lie, for example, if someone else told you the lie in the first place? Do you have no culpability in that scenario? Should there be zero onus on you to fact-check your statements before making them?

What statements? I have beliefs and beliefs are not facts. I believe they are true and others don't believe they are true. Such will always be the case with beliefs since they cannot be proven to be true.

 

[CG Didymus]

What makes you think that only the original person making the statement is making a claim?

Yeah, like a person can claim that the other person’s claim is true. Which sure seems like what Baha’is do.

 

[viole]

Because there is no evidence that the messenger from the flying spaghetti monster was sent by God.

Why not, if they claim that the properties of God are exactly what it is required from them?

now, since you seem to use the claims of your special brand of God, to justify the claims of their messengers to be true, what prevents me to claim that there is no evidence that the messengers of your God have actually been sent by God? And use exactly your arguments?

you will have no way to answer that without begging the question. Or land on some hopeless circular reasoning. Believe me.

So, intellectual honesty would dictate that all your beliefs, based on the circular claims of some self declared messengers of God, are based on nothing that cannot be equally justified by believers in the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

so, they are fallacious. They can only be accepted by faith, but have no hope to survive even the most basic challenge.

So, my question to you. What makes you believe into something so logically untenable? Is that really someone who makes you happy and justify your positive state of affairs? I know many people with a very positive state of affairs, but none of them believe it is because of God. So, why do you, considering the logically indefensible status of God?

Ciao

- viole

 

[CG Didymus]

His first wife was 15 according to one source when he married her at the age of 18 In an arranged marriage. I can't really blame him for that considering the times. His second wife was 21 and a widow when he married her. He married his third wife at about 34 but I cannot find an age for her at the time they married yet:

Baháʼu'lláh's family - Wikipedia

I would think that the three wives would be a bigger strike than the age of his first wife. Though his third wife could have been of the same age and considering how much older he was then that is getting into the "Nope" stage.

So is God making the rules to fit a particular culture? Or is a particular culture making their God fit into their culture? But if some of these religions are supposed to be for all people, and be the law for hundreds of years, I don’t see why the religious laws would be based on some Middle Eastern culture.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

So are you.

Yes. And? Is there something you'd like to reprimand me for?

What premise? I see no premise in the statement above.

Uh... the premise that you are responsible for what you say. You most certainly saw it... because you responded to it by pointing out that I was also responsible for what I say. Which, by the way. was you accepting the premise and agreeing that yes, one (in general) is responsible for what they say.

What statements? I have beliefs and beliefs are not facts. I believe they are true and others don't believe they are true. Such will always be the case with beliefs since they cannot be proven to be true.

So you don't believe that your beliefs are true then? You don't believe that your beliefs constitute facts? If not, then you operate differently than the vast majority of humans then... who usually don't hold beliefs that they don't hold to also be true. Here's a weird example conversation that might clear things up here:

Me: "My mother is an alien."
You: "Wait... you mean you have seen evidence that your mother is an actual alien?"
Me: "No."
You: "Then why did you say she was an alien?"
Me: "Well, I just believe that... it isn't necessarily true."
You: "Wait though... why did you just say it like that, like it was true?"
Me: "I am not making a claim! Stop being the problem!" *at which point I run away with hands flailing overhead*

 

[John53]

I know. They have to say I am making a claim so they can say I have the burden of proof.
But I am making no claims so I have no burden.
The burden is theirs if they want to know the truth about God and a Messenger of God.

I'm trying to work out the purpose of the thread. It seems you want to be able to say whatever you want without anyone questioning or commenting on it? Why not just post in a relevant DIR?

 

[Trailblazer]

What a crock. You and I have gone back and forth in plenty of conversations where you are sitting there, claiming that Messengers being sent to Earth and the reasons for God's decisions to do so are "logic 101 stuff." What do you think that is besides an attempt to convince someone of something?

I never made any claims, I only ever stated my beliefs.
Who are you to speak for me and tell me what I am interested in?
I have NO INTEREST in convincing anyone of anything.

Trying to make me feel stupid if I don't accept your ridiculous meanderings. That's WHAT IT IS. That's exactly what you are doing. And do you know how I know? Because I EMPLOY THE EXACT SAME TYPES OF DEVICES.

No, you do not know what I am doing because you are not me. Whatever devices you employ are YOUR devices not my devices. What you just did is called projection.

The main difference being that (from what I have seen and experienced between us) I am far more self-introspective and therefore am not to be deluded into thinking I am not doing such things. I also have no moral qualms about doing such...

The thing is that I an NOT DOING what you are doing, you just think I am.
I alone know what I am doing. I alone know what my on faults are. You don't know.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

so I have no need to fool myself into thinking I am a "better person" than I actually am. There is no contradiction with my personal convictions or principles like there would be in your case.

You do not know jack squat about me. You just think you do. I do not think I am a better person than I am, I don't even think highly of myself at all. I have lots of character defects but they are NOT the ones you think I have. I am not doing what you think I am doing, you just have an inability to separate me from you so you project.

Yeah yeah... sure... and if they deny the reality/truth of "the messengers" then they are free to be as stupid and incorrect as they like, right? RIGHT??!?!?!?!?!

Straw man. I NEVER said or even implied that. You are projecting again.

You mean it's not your problem if the evidence is a steaming pile of dog crap, right?

No, I mean it is not my problem if they don't LIKE the evidence.

Okay then, champ... then I present to you a challenge! Keep your views to yourself. Just keep them to yourself. Should be super easy if you only care about them for YOUR OWN DEVICES and don't need to convince anyone or get them to agree with you. Just keep them to yourself. Then you can rest assured in the knowledge that you are correct, and everyone else can just go about the business of believing whatever it is they want to believe. This lines up PRECISELY with what YOU YOURSELF JUST SAID:

I do not have to keep my religious beliefs to myself on a religious forum, just because YOU don't like them.
Just because I share my beliefs that does NOT mean I am trying to convince anyone they are true. That is totally inane.

Everyone can just go about the business of believing whatever it is they want to believe.
They do not need any permission from me or anyone else, not even God!

I would be willing to bet that as you read this, you are just itching with discomfort and thinking about all those instances in which you would no longer be able to inform people of "the truth" as you see it. I have a feeling it would eat at you to not be able to tell people what you believe as if it were true for everyone.

I see you are arrogantly speaking for me again. You are DEAD WRONG about me. The last thing I want is to talk about my religious beliefs!
"as if it were true for everyone?" Those are YOUR words, not mine.

Or... you're not itching... and the idea that you are "right" with all of the things you believe is just so second-nature for you that you don't even know that you speak/write as if you are correct every time you do it. Because, trust me, YOU DO.

I believe that my beliefs are true. It has nothing to do with being RIGHT. Those are YOUR words, not mine.

So me holding you responsible for the things you say is a no-no, correct? As in, me asking you to pony up your justifications for relaying certain items as "truth" or "fact" is just "not fair" to you, right?

I never said that anything I believe is truth or fact. I only ever said that I believe it is true.

I DON'T CARE what "Baha’u’llah" said. I don't care one bit. He was just another craphead human being - like myself. I work on the assumption that he doesn't know these things any better than I do. And from what I have read from his words... he definitely DOES NOT. It's specious claptrap... meant specifically to ensnare the gullible and speak to the desire of so many to "unite the world" in friendship, understanding and love. It's junk from what I have read. Like an Amway presentation, or Mary Kay.

I do not care if you care, I do not care if anyone cares. I am only responsible to God for my own beliefs, as I stated in the OP.

I don't care about it. I don't need it to go about the business of living and thriving. This much is fact... because I don't utilize it... and I am living... and thriving! So, if it is "SO VERY IMPORTANT" and someone else wants me to believe that as well... then it is THEIR JOB to convince me.

Sure, if I wanted you to believe what I believe then it would be my job to try to convince you, but I could not care less if you believe in God or a Messenger of God, so I have no desire or responsibility to convince you.

I don't need it. Do you understand that? Don't need it. I'm doing fine without it, and from what I have read it offers ZERO answers I don't already get elsewhere, and many from my own ability to think through to conclusions! It's unnecessary... unless it is! But again... it is going to take A LOT of convincing at this point. I'm in no position to even want to "seek out" any of this crap. Not even close. I simply don't care about it. I don't know if I can stress that point enough.

Did I ever say or even imply that you need anything I believe? NO. I don't decide what other people need. Only they know what they need.

 

[John53]

There should be no need to explain or defend any further, but there will be more explaining because their egos will not allow them to accept my explanation.

Yes, it's everyone else.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe you can answer something, which haven't been answered by no human so far in recorded history. And you can't understand that it is a belief, because you don't understand that it is a belief.

I could not have said that better.

 

[Trailblazer]

Aha, there is the bottleneck why they keep bugging you

I usually don't expect others to accept my explanation (exceptions are there of course...If I claim "1+1=2" I expect that most Atheist will accept this, but I am not surprised if some won't)

I am totally fine if they disagree with my explanation, view, opinion. The more they disagree the betterf, esp. if they offer their personal (not Google narrow) view, but usually they don't have one (which I understand) and only try to debate my opinion. Which they are free to do and I am free to not entertain them.

I am on EXACTLY the same page as you. I do not expect others to accept my explanation and I am totally fine if they disagree with my explanation, view, opinion, or beliefs.

The moment you can ditch "your expectation of them to accept your explanation" they usually won't bug you anymore is my experience

And that was exactly what I meant when I said before "that's not the reason they keep bugging you all the time"

My experience is that they will bug me as long as I respond to them. Only by NOT responding does the bugging stop.

I have no expectations for anyone except myself.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I never made any claims, I only ever stated my beliefs.
Who are you to speak for me and tell me what I am interested in?
I have NO INTEREST in convincing anyone of anything.

No, you do not know what I am doing because you are not me. Whatever devices you employ are YOUR devices not my devices. What you just did is called projection.

The thing is that I an NOT DOING what you are doing, you just think I am.
I alone know what I am doing. I alone know what my on faults are. You don't know.

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others.
The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

You do not know jack squat about me. You just think you do. I do not think I am a better person than I am, I don't even think highly of myself at all. I have lots of character defects but they are NOT the ones you think I have. I am not doing what you think I am doing, you just have an inability to separate me from you so you project.

Straw man. I NEVER said or even implied that. You are projecting again.

No, I mean it is not my problem if they don't LIKE the evidence.

I do not have to keep my religious beliefs to myself on a religious forum, just because YOU don't like them.
Just because I share my beliefs that does NOT mean I am trying to convince anyone they are true. That is totally inane.

Everyone can just go about the business of believing whatever it is they want to believe.
They do not need any permission from me or anyone else, not even God!

I see you are arrogantly speaking for me again. You are DEAD WRONG about me. The last thing I want is to talk about my religious beliefs!
"as if it were true for everyone?" Those are YOUR words, not mine.

I believe that my beliefs are true. It has nothing to do with being RIGHT. Those are YOUR words, not mine.

I never said that anything I believe is truth or fact. I only ever said that I believe it is true.

I do not care if you care, I do not care if anyone cares. I am only responsible to God for my own beliefs, as I stated in the OP.

Sure, if I wanted you to believe what I believe then it would be my job to try to convince you, but I could not care less if you believe in God or a Messenger of God, so I have no desire or responsibility to convince you.

Did I ever say or even imply that you need anything I believe? NO. I don't decide what other people need. Only they know what they need.

"Logic 101 stuff", right?

I am not telling you "what you think you are doing"... I am telling you my perception of what you are doing - as in "what I think you are doing". And I continue to perceive exactly what it is I have been perceiving. Your words here do not convince me that you understand when you are, and are not to be found making what, by all evidential accounts, appear to be claims.

We've even gone round this exact issue before in other threads. You stating things formulated exactly like "My mother is an alien." and then when I call you on it and ask if you think that is truly reality, you state that "it's just what I believe." But things like the "logic 101 stuff" bits of fluff very much indicate that you think these things to be entirely obvious, and can't really understand why I am having trouble with them. But then you back track out and back down, and say "well, it is just what I believe" and that I am free to come to my own conclusions... all the while hinting very strongly that I am missing out, and that I am falling down logically, etc.

When I am to be found making a claim... I own up to it. There's no reason not to. If one is assured in their position, then you can, indeed, state it as factual, and you can, indeed, go to bat for it and attempt to convince others of the correctness of your position. I think you feel that there is something deplorable, or uncouth about that. There isn't. In fact it is just the opposite. Stand by your convictions... hold fast and furiously in the face of opposition. Only if the opposition turns out to be too much more plausible than your own stance, only if you are swayed to believe otherwise should you falter. Which, there again is my perception of what you are stating here... you are to be found (again, in my perception - so take it as you will) to be faltering in your beliefs. You state that you merely "believe" in them... but admit that they need not be accepted as true. You do not do them justice with that... whatever they ultimately are.

 

[Trailblazer]

Notice how you are engaging with others on a debate forum and they are pointing out that many of your stated beliefs are not fact, yet you refer to these statements as ideas you believe true? Those are claims. That you want others to see it your way proves they are claims. That you are offended by others pointing out facts is astounding and absurd.

You do not know what I want! I do not want others to "see it my way."
Nothing could be more arrogant but to say what I want.

You just cannot help yourself can you? What not just speak for yourself and what you want? Why are you speaking for me?

These are not facts, they are YOUR personal opinions.

Your intent is demonstrated by your continued attempt to convince us your denial of making claims. You want us to believe you are not making claims by claiming you aren’t making claims. We observe you making claims and defending them.

I am making no claims. I just have religious beliefs.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am not telling you "what you think you are doing"... I am telling you my perception of what you are doing - as in "what I think you are doing".

I have told you that your perception about me is wrong. What you think I am doing is incorrect.

And I continue to perceive exactly what it is I have been perceiving.

It does not matter what you perceive about me. You are dead wrong.
Why do you insist you know me better than I know myself? Anyone who does that is arrogant.
Do I tell you what you are doing, thinking, feeling?

When I am to be found making a claim... I own up to it. There's no reason not to.

That's fine for you but I am NOT YOU.
I am not making a claim so I will not own up to making a claim.

Case closed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, it's everyone else.

Yes, clearly it is their egos that think they know me better than I know myself, which is why they don't accept my explanations when I say I am not making any claims.

It is sickeningly arrogant to keep telling me I am making claims when I have said I am not making any claims over and over again. It is pure unadulterated ego that will not accept what I say about what I am doing.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, my question to you. What makes you believe into something so logically untenable? Is that really someone who makes you happy and justify your positive state of affairs? I know many people with a very positive state of affairs, but none of them believe it is because of God. So, why do you, considering the logically indefensible status of God?

The Baha'i Faith is not logically untenable, it is perfectly logical, and that is the ONLY REASON I believe it.
No, it does not make me happy at all, it makes me miserable most of the time.
I do not care about a very positive state of affairs for myself. I only care to live by what is actually true.

The belief in God is not logically indefensible. It is perfectly logical.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Why do you insist you know me better than I know myself? Anyone who does that is arrogant.

If you don't want to hear what it is I perceive in what you are doing, then maybe stop doing it the way you are doing it? Or don't listen to me. Whichever of those you want to do is fine. But I will continue to call it like I see it. Call that "arrogance" if you will. Your attempts to shame me do not bother me, and do not sway me from seeing and calling out what I believe I am witnessing.

Do I tell you what you are doing, thinking, feeling?

Yes, you have. I know you won't like to hear that, but yes. When you say "this is logic 101 stuff" or something similar, you are accusing me of being closed minded to "the truth" - to something that is logical and perceived by you to be obvious. You are stating that I am to be found incorrect on this account, and to make it appear so obvious, you are implying that I am in denial as to how "real" the subject of our conversation actually is, even for myself. And yes, all of that comes with a statement like "this is logic 101 stuff." No doubt. That's the ONLY reason I can possibly think of to utilize such phrasing. Literally the ONLY reason. It certainly doesn't provide any evidence! Hahaha!

If you are so sure of your neutrality in all conversations, then please, by all means, correct me and tell me what the phrase "this is logic 101 stuff" is supposed to impart when you make a point about God and I am found to be in disagreement with you. Please... I am all ears.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes. And? Is there something you'd like to reprimand me for?

No, it is not my place to reprimand anyone.

So you don't believe that your beliefs are true then? You don't believe that your beliefs constitute facts? If not, then you operate differently than the vast majority of humans then... who usually don't hold beliefs that they don't hold to also be true. Here's a weird example conversation that might clear things up here:

Me: "My mother is an alien."
You: "Wait... you mean you have seen evidence that your mother is an actual alien?"
Me: "No."
You: "Then why did you say she was an alien?"
Me: "Well, I just believe that... it isn't necessarily true."
You: "Wait though... why did you just say it like that, like it was true?"
Me: "I am not making a claim! Stop being the problem!" *at which point I run away with hands flailing overhead*

I believe that my beliefs are true, but I am not claiming that they are true.
The only thing that will ever clear things up is if you accept what I just said about myself.

Please ask yourself why you cannot accept what I said about myself. Why is it so important to you that I say I am making a claim? I doubt you know why it is so important to you because the reason is probably subconscious.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm trying to work out the purpose of the thread. It seems you want to be able to say whatever you want without anyone questioning or commenting on it? Why not just post in a relevant DIR?

The purpose of the thread was stated in the OP. Anyone can question or comment on it.
But fair is fair so I will tell them they are wrong whenever they accuse me of making claims.