Claims vs. Beliefs

[sun rise]

So is God making the rules to fit a particular culture? Or is a particular culture making their God fit into their culture? But if some of these religions are supposed to be for all people, and be the law for hundreds of years, I don’t see why the religious laws would be based on some Middle Eastern culture.

People and cultures evolve. What is helpful and forward-thinking in one era becomes unhelpful and backward in another. So I agree with you on specific rules and would ask the question whether specific religious laws and rules are still helping people get closer to God or not.

Of course there will be debate and disagreement about this line of inquiry as some will say yes and some no. But that does not make the question invalid.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

No, it is not my place to reprimand anyone.

I believe that my beliefs are true, but I am not claiming that they are true.
The only thing that will ever clear things up is if you accept what I just said about myself.

Please ask yourself why you cannot accept what I said about myself. Why is it so important to you that I say I am making a claim? I doubt you know why it is so important to you because the reason is probably subconscious.

It's in the way you say things. In my experience, you don't preface things with "I believe" or "my opinion on the matter is" and then go to state your opinion. You state things definitively. Which is fine... but that IS THEN A CLAIM. And so, when it is a claim, you will be asked to back it up.

Hell... you may very well be asked to back up YOUR BELIEFS or YOUR OPINIONS!! That is entirely plausible! And people are NOT somehow being "a problem" or "remiss" in asking for your justifications for holding either beliefs or opinions.

I don't know why you have such a problem with being asked for justification! That's what this seems to be more about. You just don't like people questioning your sources and ideas. And so you think that by stating that you aren't making a claim, that this frees you from all responsibility to have to provide valid sourcing, support and reasons that you believe things or hold them as opinion. IT DOESN'T!!!

For example... I could state that it is my opinion that smooth peanut butter is better than chunky. Do you think it entirely implausible that someone might ask me why that is the case? I could then easily go on to state why that is the case by bringing up my liking the smooth texture, and that the chunky nuts are actually more likely to get stuck in various places in the digestive tract. These items all support my reasons for holding the opinion. And since it is a trivial opinion in the first place, this will likely suffice, or they may present their grounds for continuing to disagree with me. And , the reality is, if I simply state it as "Smooth peanut butter is better than chunky." without any qualifiers that indicate that I understand this to be my opinion and that others might differ, or I use language that strongly suggests that this is a true statement for everyone (Like "Smooth peanut butter is definitely better... this is logic 101 stuff"), well then... there you go. People would have every reason to gripe at me if they disagreed.

 

[John53]

The purpose of the thread was stated in the OP. Anyone can question or comment on it.
But fair is fair so I will tell them they are wrong whenever they accuse me of making claims.

So you will question their claim or is it their belief?

 

[Trailblazer]

So you will question their claim or is it their belief?

It is their personal opinion, not a claim or a belief.

 

[John53]

It is their personal opinion, not a claim or a belief.

So it's all a storm in a teacup.

Sometimes I think you misunderstand the purpose of a discussion and just want to state your beliefs and have everyone agree. Or I think you enjoy it as much as the rest of us. It's hard to tell, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Sheldon]

Everything a person says is not a claim.

Straw man fallacy, since I never made any such claim.

It was a statement if fact.

Fact and claims are not mutually exclusive, the earth is not flat, is a claim, it is also factually correct, what's telling is that you don't realise this, and probably cannot say why it is a fact?

I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

A spectacularly stupid claim.

Do you really hope to create a compelling argument with blind denial and repetition?

A belief is the affirmation of a claim, that something is true. A claim is a statement or assertion that something is the case, typically (though not exclusively) without providing evidence or proof.

Why you want to deny such simple axioms of language is baffling.

 

[Sheldon]

Solution is simple...IF you are really tired of it...never trouble again...well almost never

Start each post with:
IMHO (or imo, though imho seems better)

Opinions are claims...honestly expressed or not.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

It is their personal opinion, not a claim or a belief.

Haha... but I literally DO believe that you are making claims most of the time, and apparently don't even realize it. As in, I think that a statement of fact. I truly believe it. It is my belief. Even as it can still be cited as an opinion, it is true that it is my belief, and that I believe it to be factual.

Now... what if I said "I believe that you are making claims because some messengers came earlier today and told me that that's what is going on. I am not making the claim that you ARE making claims. I am merely relaying to you what the messengers said." Does this just make it all hunky dory, and make it such that YOU are being "a bad person" if you request that I back up my beliefs with some form of justification?

 

[John53]

It is their personal opinion, not a claim or a belief.

Semantics. Who cares!

 

[Sheldon]

The Messengers should only be investigated if people want to know if they are really Messengers of God.
Nobody is obligated to investigate.

That is not a claim because I am not asserting that anything is the case.

You have made two separate claims there:

1. That messengers should only be investigated if people want to know if they are really messengers of a god.
2. That nobody is obligated to investigate.

They are both claims you made, until you grasp this simply axiom of language, your arguments will always contain an element of the ludicrous. Now you might want to consider how making ludicrous arguments reflects on your personal beliefs, or you may not, that is of course up to you, but others will of course draw an unavoidable inference. Just as you may want to get annoyed when someone points this out, or you may want to garner a deeper understanding of language, and what makes an argument strong or compelling, or you may simply want to blindly defend a belief that brings you succour, again this is your choice.

In a public debate forum, starting a thread to claim "you are tired of" people pointing out your shortcomings in comprehension, is something of an own goal. It's up to you if you choose to take this as a personal slight, which it is of course not intended to be, or try to learn why you keep making this basic errors in both language and reasoning.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you don't want to hear what it is I perceive in what you are doing, then maybe stop doing it the way you are doing it? Or don't listen to me. Whichever of those you want to do is fine. But I will continue to call it like I see it. Call that "arrogance" if you will. Your attempts to shame me do not bother me, and do not sway me from seeing and calling out what I believe I am witnessing.

I asked : "Why do you insist you know me better than I know myself?"
I notice that you did not answer the question.

It is arrogance whenever a person insists they know more about a person than that person knows about themselves.

Trailblazer said: Do I tell you what you are doing, thinking, feeling?

Yes, you have. I know you won't like to hear that, but yes. When you say "this is logic 101 stuff" or something similar, you are accusing me of being closed minded to "the truth" - to something that is logical and perceived by you to be obvious.

No, absolutely NOT. My saying what I think is logic 101 is not telling you what you are thinking or feeling.
I never accused you of being closed minded to "the truth" You are imagining you know what I am thinking.

You are stating that I am to be found incorrect on this account, and to make it appear so obvious, you are implying that I am in denial as to how "real" the subject of our conversation actually is, even for myself.

No, absolutely NOT. I am not implying anything. You are imagining you know what I am thinking.

If you are so sure of your neutrality in all conversations, then please, by all means, correct me and tell me what the phrase "this is logic 101 stuff" is supposed to impart when you make a point about God and I am found to be in disagreement with you. Please... I am all ears.

I cannot recall what I meant by that because I don't have the context. How many years has it been since I said "this is logic 101 stuff"? If you can dredge up a post I will tell you what I meant.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's in the way you say things. In my experience, you don't preface things with "I believe" or "my opinion on the matter is" and then go to state your opinion. You state things definitively.

I do say "I believe" most of the time but when the context makes it obvious it is what I believe I am not going to put that in front of every sentence.

How many people preface everything they write with "my opinion on the matter is?"

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I asked : "Why do you insist you know me better than I know myself?"
I notice that you did not answer the question.

I don't know you better than you know yourself. I am calling your actions like I see them. Do you honestly think people incapable of deceiving themselves on all sorts of levels? I believe you are deceiving yourself in this very instance. It isn't that I "know you." I don't have to "know you." All I have to react to is the evidence of the content of your posts. And that is what I am doing.

It is arrogance whenever a person insists they know more about a person than that person knows about themselves.

I don't need to know whether you prefer kitty-cats to doggies to infer that what I see in the content of your posts completely flies in the face of all the crap you are saying in this thread. You DO make claims. Like I said, we've had this exact problem before, where I took your words as more than just mere statements of tepid belief or opinions. I called you on them, and you shrank back from them like they were poison at that point.

No, absolutely NOT. My saying what I think is logic 101 is not telling you what you are thinking or feeling.
I never accused you of being closed minded to "the truth" You are imagining you know what I am thinking.

Then STOP using that phrase. That is EXACTLY what I will continue to think you are doing EVERY TIME YOU USE IT. Period. I am sure I am not the only one who would find themselves in that frame of mind on the receiving end of such a phrase.

No, absolutely NOT. I am not implying anything. You are imagining you know what I am thinking.

Yes, I believe I know what you were thinking when you wrote "this is logic 101 stuff". I believe you were thinking that I was obviously wrong, and should see the error in my thinking, and that everything you were saying about God was just super duper obvious to the point that I shouldn't question you.

I cannot recall what I meant by that because I don't have the context. How many years has it been since I said "this is logic 101 stuff"? If you can dredge up a post I will tell you what I meant.

Hahaha... of course not. Well you asked for it... here you go, from March 2022 (THIS year, and only a month ago - the Search options on this site are GREAT by the way!)

Thread: I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things
#896 Trailblazer, Mar 30, 2022:

An Almighty God, the creator of the universe, needs no excuses for what He chooses not to do.
That is logic 101 stuff.

That's also a claim, by the way. There's also more where that came from. Just let me know if you want to see more.

 

[Sheldon]

The Messengers should only be investigated if people want to know if they are really Messengers of God.
Nobody is obligated to investigate.

That is not a claim because I am not asserting that anything is the case.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

You have asserted that it is the case that messengers should only be investigated if people want to know if they are really messengers of a deity, and you have asserted it is the case that nobody is obligated to investigate.

Again why you consistently fail to see this is baffling?

 

[Trailblazer]

Sometimes I think you misunderstand the purpose of a discussion and just want to state your beliefs and have everyone agree.

But you are wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. I could not care less if people agree. Where is this coming from? It is not coming fro anything I ever said so it must be coming from you.

Or I think you enjoy it as much as the rest of us. It's hard to tell, but that's just my opinion.

No, I do not enjoy this. If I had ever known my OP was going to lead to this I would never have posted it, but hindsight is 20-20 and only God knows the future.

I should have known from past experience, but stupid me, I acted on impulse.

 

[Sheldon]

Trailblazer said: ↑
There should be no need to explain or defend any further, but there will be more explaining because their egos will not allow them to accept my explanation.

Aha, there is the bottleneck why they keep bugging you

TB seems to think she can hide a claim behind the fact it is also a belief, and you seem to think you can make claims about your beliefs and whine when others subject them to critical scrutiny.

Neither one of you seem to grasp this forum, unlike all the others here, is specifically allocated for public debate. Why that is is baffling, but hey ho.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have asserted that it is the case that messengers should only be investigated if people want to know if they are really messengers of a deity, and you have asserted it is the case that nobody is obligated to investigate.

Again why you consistently fail to see this is baffling?

Yes I have said that, but that is not a claim.

 

[Trailblazer]

TB seems to think she can hide a claim behind the fact it is also a belief, and you seem to think you can make claims about your beliefs and whine when others subject them to critical scrutiny.

I have made no claims about my beliefs, ever.

 

[Sheldon]

I should have known from past experience, but stupid me, I acted on impulse.

You acted on a basic misunderstanding of language, a claim is a statement or assertion that something is the case. You seem unable unwilling to grasp what that means.

For example I made three separate claims there, can you see them?

 

[Sheldon]

Yes I have said that, but that is not a claim.

Yes it is, you are embarrassing yourself when you deny this.