Claims vs. Beliefs

[John53]

I don't care but apparently a lot of atheists care.

I didn't care enough to start a thread.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Of course people can deceive themselves and that means you can also deceive yourself because you are a person.

Yes, I could. But then again, I have cited actual evidence of you making claims, and of you using the phrase "logic 101 stuff" in far less than years worth of time. So... who is it more likely to be deceiving themselves here?

You don't know anything about me, you just believe you do.

You understand that I can literally READ your posts, right? And that THAT is exactly what this discussion is about? This is not a discussion about "Who is Trailblazer?" Not at all. This is a discussion about whether or not you are making claims when you state certain things definitively. Things like those that have already been pointed out to you as being claims. Whether or not you have adequate justification is irrelevant! It still may be a claim made, and the justification may still be asked for.

What you believe about me is not a fact, it is only a personal opinion, based upon your own thoughts and feelings that you cannot separate from what I have actually written.

Your actual writings are free for anyone to peruse. It would be interesting to know the opinion of many of those not in the discussion, but it is mostly irrelevant. Many of your words constitute claims made, and as pointed out, you even add qualifiers at times that indicate that you believe the points to be so obvious that contention or disagreement should not be an option. You have done this... demonstrably.

It is a well-known psychological fact that people who talk about others and point out their faults are the ones who have the problem.

Sources for this CLAIM? Please cite a professional who has done due diligence to evidence this to a great degree, and I will peruse that evidence and let you know what I think. Hahaha... oh boy.

I did not start this but now I am done.

The "I did not start this" bit? That's a claim. One that I am keen on denying. You DID start this. Who made the thread in the first place? That's a form of "starting" this, definitively. That literally cannot be denied without outing yourself as entirely irrational.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then why! If it hurts you, just don't. I tend to avoid things that cause me pain, Is that just me?

I like discussing things with you but if it causes you distress I shall cease. Sometimes I'm old and grumpy, sometimes my sense of humour is interpreted differently to what I intended but I have no desire to cause you distress.

That is good advice. I usually only go on for a while answering posts on a thread I started because I feel obligated. Then after a while it dies down.

It does cause me pain, but I am good at enduring pain, although after a while I call it quits.
After I wake up and smell the coffee, I stop even reading the posts of these atheists who just go on and on and on.
No need to mention any names, they know who they are. Thank God for free will, because that gives me the freedom of choice not to read or answer these posts anymore!

No, you never cause me any distress. You are like a beacon of light in the sea of atheists!
You are one of the nicest atheists on this forum. If you aren't careful, you will @Nimos down form his top position as my favorite atheist.

 

[ppp]

If I claimed it it would be a claim.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

None of any sentences where I state my beliefs fit the definition of a claim.
A claim is what YOU think it is, but you did not write the post so you don't know my intentions.

Look at the definitions you provided. Show me where it says that your intentions are relevant to whether or not it is a claim..

 

[ppp]

Yeah, like a person can claim that the other person’s claim is true. Which sure seems like what Baha’is do.

Yep. They are just trying to place themselves in a position whether they can say whatever the hell they want without being held accountable for what they say. It's a responsibility dodge akin to, Well, the other kids did it first. Or maybe, I was just following orders.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are the one who felt the need to start a thread, so that is simply hilarious. You can't start a debate in a public debate forum, then blame others for not agreeing with you,

I am not blaming anyone but I will correct people who are wrong about me and my intentions.
You can disagree all you want, just don't expect me to agree with you.

You might also want to ask yourself why it is so important for YOU to be right about ME and what you believe I am doing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Look at the definitions you provided. Show me where it says that your intentions are relevant to whether or not it is a claim..

If I am not claiming it it is not a claim.
I am not claiming anything.
Case closed.

 

[Trailblazer]

TB - that was a claim I made there, a claim that I believed something to be true, like a belief expressed publicly.

I have made no claims, I only stated beliefs.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I am tired of being accused of making claims. I am not making any claims because I have nothing to claim since I am a nobody.

The Messengers of God made claims in their scriptures. The main things they claimed were that:

1) They were sent by God
2) That God communicated to them
3) That God exists

I believe their claims but I am making no claims since I have nothing to claim.

Atheists assert that I am making claims so they can say that I have the burden of proof, but I am making no claims just because I believe the claims of the Messengers of God, so I have no burden of proof.

The burden of proof rests on the person making the claim. The Messengers of God made the claims so they were responsible to meet the burden of proof. I believe that the true Messengers of God met their burden by providing evidence that supports their claims.

The evidence that supports the claims of any alleged Messenger of God is as follows:

1) Their Person (their character, as demonstrated by the life they led)
2) Their Revelation (the history, which is what they accomplished on their mission from God)
3) Their Words (the words that were attributed to them in scriptures, or what they wrote)

Anyone who wants to know if an alleged Messenger of God is a true Messenger of God is responsible to do their own research and look at the evidence that supports the claims of the alleged Messenger. I can point to where the evidence for Baha’u’llah resides but I am not responsible for doing other people’s homework.

According to my beliefs, God wants everyone to do their own homework and come to their own determinations because we are all responsible for our own beliefs. Baha’u’llah wrote that the faith of no man can be conditioned by anyone else because we are each accountable to God for our own beliefs on Judgment Day.

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

All this makes logical sense if people could only remove their bias and think about what I just said. Of course, it would require atheists to think differently than they have always thought about claims and evidence and see another point of view that they had never considered.

I've read the claims of the messengers and the messengers have failed to meet the burden of proof.

 

[Trailblazer]

An opinion that something is true is a belief, an opinion or belief expressed publicly is a claim.

Nope. It is not a claim unless I am making a claim.
Got any definitions that define a claim that way, or is that just your personal opinion?

 

[Trailblazer]

You are simply and spectacularly wrong here, and yes, that is a claim,

You can post every definition on the internet but you will still be wrong because I am not making any claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've read the claims of the messengers and the messengers have failed to meet the burden of proof.

That's fine. I don't expect people to see things the way I do. Most people won't.

 

[Trailblazer]

I didn't care enough to start a thread.

I did not mean that you cared but many atheists care.
I cared enough to start a thread but now I don't think it was worth it.

 

[ppp]

If I am not claiming it it is not a claim.
I am not claiming anything.
Case closed.

It's not my fault that both of the definitions that you provided directly refute you in this. Nor is it my fault that you have invested so much of your arrant pride into dodging accountability for your statements and assertions through such a thin and pointless sham. Nor is it my fault that you opened a thread that directly exposed the obvious flaws in your position. Don't get snippy with me. That is all on you.

Now the case is closed.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not my fault that both of the definitions that you provided directly refute you in this. Nor is it my fault that you have invested so much of your arrant pride into dodging accountability for your statements and assertions through such a thin and pointless sham. Nor is it my fault that you opened a thread that directly exposed the obvious flaws in your position. Don't get snippy with me. That is all on you.

Now the case is closed.

It is not my fault that you do not know the difference between a belief and a claim.

What is the difference between claim and belief?

Claim

Noun

· A demand of ownership made for something (e.g. claim ownership, claim victory).
· A new statement of truth made about something, usually when the statement has yet to be verified.
· A demand of ownership for previously unowned land (e.g. in the gold rush, oil rush)
· (legal) A legal demand for compensation or damages.

Verb
(en verb)

· To demand ownership of.
· To state a new fact, typically without providing evidence to prove it is true.
· To demand ownership or right to use for land.
· (legal) To demand compensation or damages through the courts.
· To be entitled to anything; to deduce a right or title; to have a claim.
·
Belief

Noun

· Mental acceptance of a claim as likely true.
· Faith or trust in the reality of something; often based upon one's own reasoning, trust in a claim, desire of actuality, and/or evidence considered.

· (countable) Something believed.
· (uncountable) The quality or state of believing.
· (uncountable) Religious faith.
· (in the plural) One's religious or moral convictions.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you claim, but you have never posted any.

I have but you deny it's existence.

 

[John53]

It is not my fault that you do not know the difference between a belief and a claim.

What is the difference between claim and belief?

Claim

Noun

· A demand of ownership made for something (e.g. claim ownership, claim victory).
· A new statement of truth made about something, usually when the statement has yet to be verified.
· A demand of ownership for previously unowned land (e.g. in the gold rush, oil rush)
· (legal) A legal demand for compensation or damages.

2 is the only one that applies in the context of the thread and we all do it.

 

[Trailblazer]

2 is the only one that applies in the context of the thread and we all do it.

Do you mean this?
A new statement of truth made about something, usually when the statement has yet to be verified.

 

[ppp]

It is not my fault that you do not know the difference between a belief and a claim.

And for the third time I ask, what does the fact that you have a belief have to do with whether or not your statement is a claim? Show where in the definition it says that your belief is relevant to whether or not the statement is a claim.

 

[dybmh]

Belief

Noun

· Mental acceptance of a claim as likely true.
· Faith or trust in the reality of something; often based upon one's own reasoning, trust in a claim, desire of actuality, and/or evidence considered.

the definition for belief includes the definition of claim