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COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
Tumah
Veteran Member
This appears to be a Hebrew translation of an English translation of a Greek text that you are quoting to someone who speaks English.
Are you ok?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Yep many are called but few are chosen. Seems many will be disappointed come judgment day thinking they had salvation only to find out they rejected God's Word not knowing the day of their visitation.
Ok, then I think we can agree and I probably misunderstood your earlier post.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Who should remember?
Who should observe the Sabbath?
I am a Filipino, not a single middle eastern blood flows through my veins.
Should I observe the Sabbath???
From the Bible:
Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
I am not an Israelite
So what am I?
Exodus 31:16 New International Version (NIV)
The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.
Israelite, descendant of the Hebrew patriarch Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel after an all-night fight at Penuel near the stream of Jabbok (Genesis 32:28). In early history, Israelites were simply members of the 12 tribes of Israel. After 930 bce and the establishment of two independent Hebrew kingdoms in Palestine, the 10 northern tribes constituting the kingdom of Israel were known as Israelites to distinguish them from the southern kingdom of Judah. The northern kingdom was conquered by the Assyrians in 721 bce, and its population was eventually absorbed by other peoples.
Source: Israelite | people
They used to live here and they have tribes:
Too far away to be an Israelite
8,979 km
Distance from Israel to Philippines
You forgot the 13th tribe of Levi.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
No worries 1213, its always good to share God's Word together. I believe God is calling us out from following man made teachings and traditions that lead us away from his Word back to the pure Word of God. I believe we are in the last days and there will only be more and more false teachers out there. According to the scriptures only those who continue in God's Word are his disciples *John 8:31-36 and the devil will do all that he can to deceive if possible God's very elect *Matthew 24:24. God promises to see us through though if we seek him prayerfully through his Word *John 14:23; 16:13; 7:17: 17:17; 1 John 2:27
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
There are only 12 tribes of Israel and the person you are responding to is confused not understanding the difference between the physical nation of Israel and God's true Israel in the new covenant who are all those who believe and follow God's Word.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Revelation 7:4-8 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144, 000 from all the tribes of Israel. 5From the tribe of Judah 12, 000 were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben 12, 000, from the tribe of Gad 12, 000, 6from the tribe of Asher 12, 000, from the tribe of Naphtali 12, 000, from the tribe of Manasseh 12, 000, 7from the tribe of Simeon 12, 000, from the tribe of Levi 12, 000, from the tribe of Issachar 12, 000, 8from the tribe of Zebulun 12, 000, from the tribe of Joseph 12, 000, from the tribe of Benjamin 12, 000.
Why is the 13th tribe of Dan not counted here?
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Good question although there is no 100% clear answer but one suggestion is that Dan was never a true descendent and was lead into unrepentant idolatry and God excluded them from the twelve tribes.
Dan was also not Rachel’s child, but a servant that Rachel forced into having Jacob bear a son, and so Rachel says, “God has judged me, and has also heard my voice and given me a son.” Therefore she called his name Dan” (Gen 30:6), so even his name is associated with judging. After Israel had settled into the Promised Land, the Danites felt they got slighted in their inheritance (Judges 18:1), which was not really true (Joshua 19:40-48), and so they went seeking a city for their own, and founded it, but on the ruins of a city they destroyed (Judges 18:7-10). After they leveled Laish, “they rebuilt the city and lived in it. And they named the city Dan, after the name of Dan their ancestor who was born to Israel” (Judges 18:28-29). That was bad enough, but then, “the people of Dan set up the carved image for themselves, and Jonathan the son of Gershom, son of Moses, and his sons were priests to the tribe of the Danites until the day of the captivity of the land. So they set up Micah’s carved image that he made, as long as the house of God was at Shiloh” (Judges 18:30-31). Since the nation failed to repent, and there is no biblical record of what happened to the descendants of the Tribe of Dan. It may be because God had separated them from His chosen people, so that may be why they’re missing from the list of the twelve tribes of Israel (chapter 7).
When Israel split into two separate kingdoms, with the Southern Kingdom now called Judah (with Judah, Benjamin, and the Levites), and the Northern Kingdom was called Israel (the other ten tribes), the Nouthern Kingdom began to fall into idolatrous practices, which would be the beginning of the end for them. Jeroboam was so worried about his residents going back to Jerusalem to worship in the temple he made his own worship places so that they could worship in the Northern Kingdom. Jeroboam thought, “If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the temple of the Lord at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will turn again to their lord, to Rehoboam king of Judah, and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah.” So the king took counsel and made two calves of gold. And he said to the people, “You have gone up to Jerusalem long enough. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt” (1st Kings 12:27-28). They even offered sacrifices…but it was to no god at all. It may be for this reason that Dan is excluded in the Kingdom of God, or the New Jerusalem. Joseph, the youngest son of Jacob (or Israel) had a son, his eldest, named Manasseh, and so Joseph and Manasseh are listed with the tribes of Israel, but at the exclusion of Ephraim and Dan (source).
God bless
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Dan is missing because he was sterile and when his mother [Bilhah] died, he adopted his mother's young daughter Hushim, who was conceived from the rape of Reuben.
It was for this reason that Jacob/Israel adopted the two sons of Joseph as his own, and divided Joseph into the two tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
We are getting side tracked a bit but that theory alone which I have heard elsewhere has problems with the splitting of the tribes into the two sons of Joseph in Revelation 7 (I know it is in the old testament - Judges 5) but in revelaiton 7 Joseph and Manasseh are both mentioned separately. Take a look at this. I do not think it is really clear cut but for me Dan not being a true descendend of both Jacob and Rachel and their apostasy and sins against God may account for their exclusion. Remember Abraham and Sarah with Sarah trying to get a son through Hagar? God rejected Ishmeal through the bondsevant in favor of their own son that God gave them named Isaac.
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The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Be back later, we are off to town which is 50 miles away
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
No problem brother have a safe trip. Nice talking to you.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
So you have many Sabbath defects and these are:
- It was long abolished by the Lord God 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ
- The observance is exclusively and only for the Israelites and no other race, even Israelis won't do
- Jesus Christ showed the way by working on Sabbaths, so its perfectly OK to work on Sabbaths
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Back again old mate. I have no intentions of dragging your thread off topic, and I will later create a new thread to explain the real reason why Dan the father of the tribe that was established through (Hushim) the first born child of Reuben the first born of Israel, and why Ephraim, the second born son of Joseph, received the blessing of first born from Jacob, and why Ephraim carried the name of his father's house, (Joseph).
I merely wanted to correct your error in saying that there were only 12 tribes of Israel, for just as Jesus and his 12 disciples counted to 13, so did the tribes of Israel.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Perhaps it is better said on my part there is only 12 tribes of Israel accepted by God. This was the intention of my statement.
God bless
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
You my friend are confused not knowing God's Word, who God's ISRAEL are in the new covenant and also for teaching things that are not biblical in order to justify following man made teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. There is a new thread started with a more detailed study through the scripture just for you in the link below...
God's Israel in the new testament who is it *Romans 9:6-8 linked
My pray to you is that you will prayerfully read the scriptures provided there so you can by God's grace know the difference between the physical nation of Israel of the old covenant with God's spiritual Israel in the new covenant (the Church).
May God help you as you seek him through his Word.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Numbers 7: 10
GNB, Catholic Study Edition.
The Offerings of the Leaders
10The leaders also brought offerings to celebrate the dedication of the altar. When they were ready to present their gifts at the altar, 11the LORD said to Moses, “Tell them that each day for a period of twelve days one of the leaders is to present his gifts for the dedication of the altar.”
12-83They presented their offerings in the following order:
Day Tribe Leader
1st Judah. Nahshon son of Amminadab
2nd Issachar Nethanel son of Zuar
3rd Zebulun Eliab son of Helon
4th Reuben Elizur son of Shedeur
5th Simeon Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai
6th Gad Eliasaph son of Deuel
7th Ephraim Elishama son of Ammihud
8th Manasseh Gamaliel son of Pedahzur
9th Benjamin Abidan son of Gideoni
10th Dan Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai
11th Asher Pagiel son of Ochran
12th Naphtali Ahira son of Enan.
Now add in the priestly tribe of Levi and you have 13 tribes of Israel accepted by God.
The First Census of Israel
NUMBERS 1:1; On the first day of the second month in the second year after the people of Israel left Egypt, the LORD spoke to Moses there in the Tent of his presence in the Sinai Desert. He said, 2“You and Aaron are to take a census of the people of Israel by clans and families. List the names of all the men 3twenty years old or older who are fit for military service. 4Ask one clan chief from each tribe to help you.” 5-16These are the men, leaders within their tribes, who were chosen from the community for this work:
Tribe Clan chief
Reuben Elizur son of Shedeur
Simeon Shelumiel son of Zurishaddai
Judah Nahshon son of Amminadab
Issachar Nethanel son of Zuar
Zebulun Eliab son of Helon
Ephraim Elishama son of Ammihud
Manasseh Gamaliel son of Pedahzur
Benjamin Abidan son of Gideoni
Dan Ahiezer son of Ammishaddai
Asher Pagiel son of Ochran
Gad Eliasaph son of Deuel
Naphtali Ahira son of Enan
17With the help of these twelve men Moses and Aaron 18called together the whole community on the first day of the second month and registered all the people by clans and families. The names of all the men twenty years old or older were recorded and counted, 19as the LORD had commanded. In the Sinai Desert, Moses registered the people. 20-46The men twenty years old or older who were fit for military service were registered by name according to clan and family, beginning with the tribe of Reuben, Jacob's eldest son. The totals were as follows:
Tribe Number
Reuben 46,500
Simeon 59,300
Gad 45,650
Judah 74,600
Issachar 54,400
Zebulun 57,400
Ephraim 40,500
Manasseh 32,200
Benjamin 35,400
Dan 62,700
Asher 41,500
Naphtali 53,400
Total: 603,550
47The Levites (The 13th tribe of Israel) were not registered with the other tribes.
Don't you think you should start telling the truth and admit that there were 13 tribes of Israel, that were accepted by God.
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MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Saw your thread.
What is there?
That Israel is God's people?
You should read the entire Romans 9
particularly the last verses and find out what you missed
Example:
Romans 9:24-28 Good News Translation (GNT)
For we are the people he called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles. This is what he says in the book of Hosea:
“The people who were not mine
I will call ‘My People.’
The nation that I did not love
I will call ‘My Beloved.’
And in the very place where they were told, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called the children of the living God.”
And Isaiah exclaims about Israel: “Even if the people of Israel are as many as the grains of sand by the sea, yet only a few of them will be saved; for the Lord will quickly settle his full account with the world.”
What then is in Romans 9?
The Gentiles [the Romans, Ephesians, Corinthians etc] who became Church of Christ members are now called the children of the living God - they are not Israelites, nor became one nor automatically considered as such.
With regards to Israelites - though they are many, only a few of them will be saved.
So there is no big fuzz about the Israelites, a lot of them will be doomed anyway.
Crosstian
Baring the Cross
Hey 3rdAngel, let me know when the thread gets back to topic of looking at Colossians 2:16, and I'll come back and pop in. I have a lot more detailed material on Colossians 2 in context, but think it better to hold off, until at least a semblance of an attempt at addressing what I have already provided even in one single response is in any manner seriously considered.3rdAngel said:
I will also address our resident Noahidden who has brought up a statement that is normally cited by anti-nomians, which is being the so-called '613' 'mitzvot' of the Torah, that first part of the TaNaKh (Torah (instruction/law), Nevi'im (prophets), Ketuvim (writings)), the original breakdown of which looked like - Link
But before that, I wanted to point out something that he needs to correct:
Dear Rival,
The citation you have provided is in error. The actual reference you needed to provide was Leviticus 24:1-etc, not Exodus 24:1-etc. You may want to go back and edit your response appropriately. Every little detail matters.
So, in
An example is found in Genesis 26:5, which we will look at in just a minute, but first, I want to go back to your source, and show you something that I always point out to sincere people who bring this up. You quote as follows:
Ok. I know how some like ordered lists, so here goes:
[1.] To begin with, there is not a single place in all the TaNaKh, neither the portion thereof, the Torah (Gen-Deut) where God, Moses, Joshua, or any person of heaven above, or on this earth below, state on biblical record that there are exactly '613' 'mitzvot'. For the New Testament minded (Matt-Rev), the same applies also. Again, absent. Jesus, as a final example (for the New Testament minded), did not once enumerate the 'mitzvot' of the Torah for us in such fashion, to '613' or any other such number.
[2.] The enumeration of '613' is a Rabbincal, yea even after a Talmudical, fashioning or calculation or enumeration. No one has to take my word for this, it is said as much on the very site so kindly provided to us (it has been provided so many times, I lost count):
"... Below is a list of the 613 mitzvot (commandments). It is based primarily on the list compiled by Rambam in the Mishneh Torah, but I have consulted other sources as well. As I said in the page on halakhah, Rambam's list is probably the most widely accepted list, but it is not the only one. The order is my own, as are the explanations of how some rules are derived from some biblical passages. ..." - Link source already provided by Rival
As a side note:
The RaMBaM (whom I have read on numerous occasions, with others, such as RaMBaN, Pirke, etc) is actually, Ra(bbi) M(oses) Ba(ni) M(aimon), aka Maimonides, of the 12th cent Morocco & Egypt (during the Almoravid (Muslim) empire, and died under the Ayyubid sultanate) - Link
[3.] RaMBaM's listing isn't the only one. There are other listings, by other Rabbis, all several thousand years removed from Moses or Joshua, and the website provided by our resident Noahidden demonstrates the accuracy of this point.
[4.] RaMBaM's order of listing isn't the only one. There are other orderings, by other Rabbis and persons non-Rabbi (scholars, etc), and again, the very website provided, demonstrates this by stating it out as matters of fact, and in personal ordered listing preferred instead to RaMBaM's (example 2 orders at least on the face of it).
[5.] RaMBaM's explanation for the listing and ordering thereof is not the only one. There are explanations, just as there are other listings and orderings by other Rabbis, etc. (generally, not exclusively, following after RaMBaM, (thus post 12th cent), possible just more easily accessible)
... to be continued ...
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