Smoke
Done here.
She said that if given the opportunity to counsel gay people she would recommend "conversion therapy," which is ineffective, unethical, and harmful.
News: Legal Loss for Anti-Gay Student - Inside Higher Ed
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College Orders Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality, Or Be Dismissed
- Thread starter Magic Man
- Start date
News: Legal Loss for Anti-Gay Student - Inside Higher Ed
AuroraWillow
Druid of the Olive
The issue is that if someone is in strict disagreement with a code of ethics, that's a problem for being admitted.
If a church is permitted, on ethical and religious grounds, to deny any services to a gay person, then why have a double standard where she's permitted to go against an ethical statement that is part of the colleges rules for graduation?
Smoke
Done here.
However, people who affirm that they believe stealing is not just okay, but a moral imperative, tend to make bad bank tellers, and a human resources professional who hired such a person would be derelict in her duty.
If a medical student avows not only that he believes epilepsy is caused by demons, but also that he will at every opportunity treat epilepsy with exorcism, it would be irresponsible to allow him to practice medicine.
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
Hmm...well her problem is that she wouldn't take the remedial classes (which aren't all that bad). Not necessarily that she holds the belief that she does.
All in all, the university would be expelling her for not taking the remedial classes. Not for holding a particular belief.
The general sentiment I got from this thread is that it's OK to expel a student based on their beliefs. Which is simply ridiculous. Beliefs are meaningless unless actions support them.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
She is trying to be a Mental Heath professional. She will practice and work with Children. She refuses to be educated on the subject. Why should the college graduate her when she refuses to play by the rules. It is the obligation for her school to hold the highest standards. In California many flunk the MFT test. The higher standards the better off our children are. Even if they think she might be a bad Theoropist they need to get rid of her nobody has the right to be a mental Health Professional. It is something you must earn.
AuroraWillow
Druid of the Olive
It's not about personal belief, it's about a willingness to play by the rules.
It's the same in any university - you break the rules, you have the possibility of being expelled. It's that simple.
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
The rules for graduation don't include certain beliefs. They include attending certain mandated classes. She is being removed for not attending the classes, not because she thinks a certain way.
While it might be disturbing, what you believe doesn't necessarily affect how you behave. In fact, many Christians behave in a manner opposite to their supposed beliefs.
Even so, belief doesn't necessitate that the person act on it. Plenty of people believe things that they don't act in accordance with. If she is expelled it should be for doing/not doing something. Not because she might do/not do something.
She's not exactly claiming that she would treat the person any certain way. She said she'd refer them to a conversion therapy program, which is hardly the equivalent of a doctor performing an exorcism on an epilepsy patient.
AuroraWillow
Druid of the Olive
Right. She's refusing to be held to the standards of the college and is therefore being dismissed. So, what's the issue?
Conversion therapy is still unethical, not to mention the fact that it doesn't work, whether or not she actually performs it is irrelevant - she still supports it, which calls her education and ethics into question.
Smoke
Done here.
It's as close as you can get in the mental health field.
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
I suppose that makes sense.
She didn't actually break a rule (by believing what she does). The problem is that she might.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
you are over looking the christian agenda, captain...
Any agenda involves bias. And I'm not a captain.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
If they are not sure she will be a good counselor then she should not become one. It matters not if it is because of her beliefs or just incompetence.
The Neo Nerd
Well-Known Member
Hi Knight,
You've come in late to the discussion and you have missed a lot. That's understandable there's a lot there to take in.
I don't want to seem like i'm blowing my own trumpet but check out these two posts of mine
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107047-post84.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107061-post85.html
Especially the 2nd one.
Please have a read and then come back to me because i would really like to discuss this with you.
-Q
You've come in late to the discussion and you have missed a lot. That's understandable there's a lot there to take in.
I don't want to seem like i'm blowing my own trumpet but check out these two posts of mine
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107047-post84.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2107061-post85.html
Especially the 2nd one.
Please have a read and then come back to me because i would really like to discuss this with you.
-Q
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It was way back in the beginning of the thread a link was given to a page that explicitly said that should would not be treating homosexuals or transgendered individuals in an ethical manner. That automatically says she will not make a good councilor.
And again, it has nothing to do with her religion. It is the fact that she has openly and boldly declared she will not follow ACA or APA guidelines. She said she will instead be sending gays and transpeople to conversion therapy, which the APA has stated that therapist should not do this, and the ACA has said the councilor must inform the patient of the problems and risks involved and that it isn't a proven method. The university offered remedial courses to educate her on why her decision is unethical, and she refused to.
To put it in perspective of what she is doing, lets say she wanted to be a medical doctor instead. She would be bottling a folk lore remedy for the common cold that the FDA, AMA, and CDC has said it doesn't work, and science can only produce very shaky and weak proof of it's effectiveness, some studies show it can actually worsen the symptoms, and she is failing to put the warning label on the bottle that says "This drug has not been approved for use by the FDA. It is not intended to treat, diagnose, or cure any disease or illness." She is just giving this questionable medicine to someone who comes in with a mild case of the sniffles who would be just fine without any treatment.
The student in question can believe that mucus from your nose is composed of dead brain cells if she wants. But when are entering into any form of medical profession, there are standards, ethics, and obligations that come before your own personal beliefs. Don't like it? Then it is clearly not the profession for you.
It cannot be stressed enough that this has nothing to do with her beliefs. It is rather that she is in violation of the standards and ethics that were set before her. They are not dismissing her because she believes homosexuality is bad. They are dismissing her because she has said that she will allow for her personal beliefs regarding the GLBT community to overlap into her professional practices. Which is something that you cannot do. If your patients are Hitler, Stalin, Gandhi, Jesus, Charles Manson, Mother Theresa, the Zodiac Killer, or Martin Luther King Jr. you are obligated by the standards and ethics of the profession to treat them all the same. You would have to greet Hitler and just like any other customer service field wish him a good day. When Jesus comes for his appointment you wouldn't stand for him or bow before him as that would mean you are getting personally involved and you would need to send him to another therapist (another issue of ethics. Actually the ethics are even such that you are not to treat family and friends). Rather, just like Hitler, you would greet him, discuss whatever, and send him away with a fond farewell and a paper to take to the receptionist.
And I guess the best way to describe it is, as a councilor/therapist your job is to NEVER serve your own interest, but to help your patient serve their own individual interests.
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Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
OK, all of the other incorrect statements you've made aside, this is the most important one. She has indeed made an indication that she will treat them differently. That's the problem.
waitasec
Veteran Member
well, lets see here
and what is the reason for not taking the remedial classes...?
perhaps it is her religious bias.
waitasec
Veteran Member
thats is funny
the agenda for a counselor is to help
the agenda for a christian is to control...
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
You can't help someone by controlling them, unless it's for their own good. Straightjackets and Thorazine come to mind.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
It's just that simple.