Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
I don't think there is such a switch. I was stating a hypothetical.
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College Orders Student to Alter Religious Views on Homosexuality, Or Be Dismissed
- Thread starter Magic Man
- Start date
I don't think there is such a switch. I was stating a hypothetical.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
I don't expect you to make retractions. I expect you to listen to reason and reality, and realize that your previous comments were not in line with either.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Who the hell do you think you are? :sarcastic
waitasec
Veteran Member
homosexuality isn't a moral issue, it's how it is perceived by the bigots that is morally questionable.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Someone trying to explain reason and reality to you. I thought that was clear.
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
It's clear that we are not in agreement. I don't need you to explain reason and reality for me. BTW it's easy to be a tough guy behind a keyboard.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
If you didn't need reason and reality explained to you on this subject you wouldn't have made the comments you did here.
Who's being a tough guy? You made a comment that ignored the entire thread, along with reason and reality. I explained what was wrong with it, and then you got all huffy about it.
waitasec
Veteran Member
Ethics guidelines
In 1998, the American Psychiatric Association issued a statement opposing any treatment which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality is a mental disorder or that a person should change their orientation, but did not have a formal position on other treatments that attempt to change a person's sexual orientation. In 2000, they augmented that statement by saying that as a general principle, a therapist should not determine the goal of treatment, but recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change clients' sexual orientation until more research is available.[3]
The American Counseling Association has stated that they do not offer or condone any training to educate and prepare a counselor to practice conversion therapy. They strongly suggest counselors do not refer clients to a conversion therapist or to proceed cautiously once they know the counselor fully informs clients of the unproven nature of the treatment and the potential risks and takes steps to minimize harm to clients. However, "it is of primary importance to respect a client's autonomy to request a referral for a service not offered by a counselor." A counselor performing conversion therapy "must define the techniques/procedures as 'unproven' or 'developing' and explain the potential risks and ethical considerations of using such techniques/procedures and take steps to protect clients from possible harm." The counselor must also provide complete information about the treatment, offer referrals to gay-affirmative counselors, discuss the right of clients, understand the client's request within a cultural context, and only practice within their level of expertise.[10]
The American Psychological Association states "The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation. Homosexuality per se is not a mental disorder. Since 1974, the American Psychological Association (APA) has opposed stigma, prejudice, discrimination, and violence on the basis of sexual orientation and has taken a leadership role in supporting the equal rights of lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals. APA is concerned about ongoing efforts to mischaracterize homosexuality and promote the notion that sexual orientation can be changed and about the resurgence of sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE). SOCE has been controversial due to tensions between the values held by some faith-based organizations, on the one hand, and those held by lesbian, gay and bisexual rights organizations and professional and scientific organizations, on the other. Some individuals and groups have promoted the idea of homosexuality as symptomatic of developmental defects or spiritual and moral failings and have argued that SOCE, including psychotherapy and religious efforts, could alter homosexual feelings and behaviors. Many of these individuals and groups appeared to be embedded within the larger context of conservative religious political movements that have supported the stigmatization of homosexuality on political or religious grounds. Psychology, as a science, and various faith traditions, as theological systems, can acknowledge and respect their profoundly different methodological and philosophical viewpoints
~wiki
why would anyone want to change...because your god says it's wrong?
see the problem you ignore is that people are born that way. it is not a choice therefore how can your god create an abomination
that is the dilemma you choose to ignore by saying it is a choice. what's it to you in the first place? this is just another way of christians appointing themselves as a mediator between their god and peoples inalienable rights.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 tim 2:5
if you really believed that people are not born that way why are you so fearful that YOU (meaning the religious ones that are compelled) need to take control of the situation? where is the faith? seems this is a manifestation of fear because you do not understand how god can create someone as a homosexual...
ever had shrimp or shell fish?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
Ethics guidelines
In 1998, the American Psychiatric Association issued a statement opposing any treatment which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality is a mental disorder or that a person should change their orientation, but did not have a formal position on other treatments that attempt to change a person's sexual orientation. In 2000, they augmented that statement by saying that as a general principle, a therapist should not determine the goal of treatment, but recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change clients' sexual orientation until more research is available.[3]
The American Counseling Association has stated that they do not offer or condone any training to educate and prepare a counselor to practice conversion therapy. They strongly suggest counselors do not refer clients to a conversion therapist or to proceed cautiously once they know the counselor fully informs clients of the unproven nature of the treatment and the potential risks and takes steps to minimize harm to clients. However, "it is of primary importance to respect a client's autonomy to request a referral for a service not offered by a counselor." A counselor performing conversion therapy "must define the techniques/procedures as 'unproven' or 'developing' and explain the potential risks and ethical considerations of using such techniques/procedures and take steps to protect clients from possible harm." The counselor must also provide complete information about the treatment, offer referrals to gay-affirmative counselors, discuss the right of clients, understand the client's request within a cultural context, and only practice within their level of expertise.[10]
The American Psychological Association states "The longstanding consensus of the behavioral and social sciences and the health and mental health professions is that homosexuality per se is a normal and positive variation of human sexual orientation. Homosexuality per se is not a mental disorder. Since 1974, the American Psychological Association (APA) has opposed stigma, prejudice, discrimination, and violence on the basis of sexual orientation and has taken a leadership role in supporting the equal rights of lesbian, gay, and bisexual individuals. APA is concerned about ongoing efforts to mischaracterize homosexuality and promote the notion that sexual orientation can be changed and about the resurgence of sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE). SOCE has been controversial due to tensions between the values held by some faith-based organizations, on the one hand, and those held by lesbian, gay and bisexual rights organizations and professional and scientific organizations, on the other. Some individuals and groups have promoted the idea of homosexuality as symptomatic of developmental defects or spiritual and moral failings and have argued that SOCE, including psychotherapy and religious efforts, could alter homosexual feelings and behaviors. Many of these individuals and groups appeared to be embedded within the larger context of conservative religious political movements that have supported the stigmatization of homosexuality on political or religious grounds. Psychology, as a science, and various faith traditions, as theological systems, can acknowledge and respect their profoundly different methodological and philosophical viewpoints
~wiki
why would anyone want to change...because your god says it's wrong?
see the problem you ignore is that people are born that way. it is not a choice therefore how can your god create an abomination
that is the dilemma you choose to ignore by saying it is a choice. what's it to you in the first place? this is just another way of christians appointing themselves as a mediator between their god and peoples inalienable rights.
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 tim 2:5
if you really believed that people are not born that way why are you so fearful that YOU (meaning the religious ones that are compelled) need to take control of the situation? where is the faith? seems this is a manifestation of fear because you do not understand how god can create someone as a homosexual...
ever had shrimp or shell fish?
You did not read my post, did you?
waitasec
Veteran Member
yes i did...
this is the dilemma...
if one is to go into a scientific field of study one has to be unbiased.
do you agree?
Midnight Pete
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's humanly possible to be unbiased.
The Neo Nerd
Well-Known Member
I totally 100% agree with you Pete.
However it is possible to remove or bias' when we become aware of them.
-Q
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
By nature, no. But in such fields you are taught to not judge, not get attached, and to treat everyone the same. One of my psychology teachers is a therapist who works with criminals, vocational rehab, mental patients, and general therapy. One of her patients swore she was trying to seduce him because she had her nails painted once. Now the natural response is to shake your head or roll your eyes, but you can't.
When I am a therapist, if I get a patient who is proud to have protested with WBC at a soldier's funeral I would want to strangle them. But the only thing I could do about that is to take a deeper look to see if there are any underlying problems that might have made them behave in such a way if there is a reason to believe so, and probably refer them to a psychiatrist if there is reason to believe a mental illness caused them to behave in such a manner. But the session would still end with a thank you, have a nice day, see on your next appointment, hope you do well and call me if you need to. That is how counciling and therapy works. You don't get attached to your patients, you treat them the same, you don't pass judgment, and you don't attempt to convert them to your way of thinking. The profession exist to help guide and council people, and help them get through a rough time. What do you think would happen if a gay student calls her in the middle of the night in tears because no one understands? That happens when take position. Your patients might call you any time of the day on the verge of suicide.
The only time that I am aware you can get involved with a patient is to report suspected cases of child abuse, which is required by law.
Smoke
Done here.
Do you think it's humanly possible to be an ethical counselor?
Do you think it's humanly possible to avoid violating the minimum ethical standards of one's chosen profession?
That's all anybody asked her to do.
waitasec
Veteran Member
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
Perhaps this was answered somewhere in the preceding 40 pages, but what does her personal belief have to do with her ability to perform her duties as a counselor? She doesn't say she won't treat homosexuals at all. She can treat them for every mental health issue that might come up and what she thinks personally about their choice won't matter. Chances are the homosexual won't come to her with a problem like "I'm gay, help me cure it." They'll come with some other problem, and whether or not they choose their sexual desires is probably not relevant to the vast majority of those problems.
And to compare her belief that sexuality is a choice to a nurse/doctor that doesn't belief in anti-biotics is comparing oranges to apples. Unless you believe that sexuality is an undeniable factor in counseling someone with a problem like MPD or depression, then what she thinks about the person's sexuality will have little to do with how she treats the person in other areas. It's more like saying a doctor who thinks smoking cigarettes can be good for you shouldn't be a doctor.
Yeah, his opinion is wrong. But it doesn't really affect his ability to effectively treat diseases.
And to compare her belief that sexuality is a choice to a nurse/doctor that doesn't belief in anti-biotics is comparing oranges to apples. Unless you believe that sexuality is an undeniable factor in counseling someone with a problem like MPD or depression, then what she thinks about the person's sexuality will have little to do with how she treats the person in other areas. It's more like saying a doctor who thinks smoking cigarettes can be good for you shouldn't be a doctor.
Yeah, his opinion is wrong. But it doesn't really affect his ability to effectively treat diseases.
Smoke
Done here.
No, she isn't. She's saying she'll treat them irresponsibly and unethically.
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
When, exactly, does she say this? She's only said that she believes certain things. Not that she'd treat them differently because they're gay.
Chances are the gay patient that comes to her won't be coming to her because he/she is gay, but because of a problem resulting from that. Her response to that problem will not necessarily be maliciously affected by her personal belief that homosexuality is a choice.
waitasec
Veteran Member
that wouldn't be an opinion would it..it is a factually wrong
just like it is a factually wrong to believe homosexuality is a choice...
TheKnight
Guardian of Life
People hold factually wrong opinions all the time. What does it matter? It doesn't affect his ability to do his job. Similarly, her factually wrong belief does not necessarily mean that she is unable to perform her duties.
What we're talking about here is a disagreement in ethics. If I belong to an organization that believes stealing is wrong, but I think stealing is OK, should I automatically be expelled? No. Just because I believe it is OK to steal doesn't mean that I will steal.
Similarly if she belongs to an organization that holds that sexuality is not a choice, but she believes it is, it doesn't automatically mean she will treat homosexuals any differently. Especially when she makes no indication of treating them any differently.