Avoice
Active Member
Well I for one don't believe it is impossible for God to save a rich man:
NWT Matthew 19: said:
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Commandments by Christ.
- Thread starter sandy whitelinger
- Start date
Well I for one don't believe it is impossible for God to save a rich man:
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You did notice, though, that in the biblical example you posted that it says, "...with God all things are possible?"
Shermana
Heretic
That would still imply that they are part of the "Lost sheep of the House of Israel", just not of this fold.
Regardless, if the idea is that when Jews are mentioned about the Jewish law that it only pertains to Jews, then there goes the Sermon of the Mount, out the window. All of it. Not to mention many of the other teachings.
So thus, this thinking can effectively be used to get around practically everything Jesus taught, since his disciples themselves were practicing Jews, and much of what he taught was in relation to how to properly obey the Jewish law.
The "other fold" would still be members who obey the Law given to "Israel".
If gentiles believe that they are now part of the "House of Israel", then surely they would believe they are under the same rules that Jesus was teaching to "The Jews" who were not in any way separate from "The House of Israel". Otherwise they must eliminate the concept of being part of the House of Israel from their Theology.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Just a note....
The 'Golden Rule' was written in stone centuries before the Carpenter recited as much...
in the face of the pharisees.
They were asking...'which law is greatest?'
They were referring to the law of Moses.
They came seeking an argument to trap the Carpenter in His words.
They were well aware....among themselves....such discussion comes about full circle.
Such discussion can become paradoxical.
Jesus said to them....
'Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.'
What He quoted was considered heathen law.
Everyone knew it...everyone.
And the law of Moses differs.
The law of Moses is retroactive....an eye for and eye....a law of condemnation.
The golden rule is proactive.....you first.
Picture the event.
You stand beside the Carpenter.
The pharisees come asking.... and this is dangerous.
A misspoken word and the False Prophet and His followers.... die.
He responds with those famous words while looking the pharisees...in the eye.
They seek to kill Him from that moment forward.
As they walk away...they look at you....the same way they did Him.
Even though you had said nothing...you were just standing beside Him.
That's how I see it.
The 'Golden Rule' was written in stone centuries before the Carpenter recited as much...
in the face of the pharisees.
They were asking...'which law is greatest?'
They were referring to the law of Moses.
They came seeking an argument to trap the Carpenter in His words.
They were well aware....among themselves....such discussion comes about full circle.
Such discussion can become paradoxical.
Jesus said to them....
'Do unto others as you would have it done unto you.'
What He quoted was considered heathen law.
Everyone knew it...everyone.
And the law of Moses differs.
The law of Moses is retroactive....an eye for and eye....a law of condemnation.
The golden rule is proactive.....you first.
Picture the event.
You stand beside the Carpenter.
The pharisees come asking.... and this is dangerous.
A misspoken word and the False Prophet and His followers.... die.
He responds with those famous words while looking the pharisees...in the eye.
They seek to kill Him from that moment forward.
As they walk away...they look at you....the same way they did Him.
Even though you had said nothing...you were just standing beside Him.
That's how I see it.
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John 15:12 This is my commandment that you love one another as I have loved you.
Shermana
Heretic
Are you implying that's his only commandment?
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
What about the commandment in Mark 16:16
"16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Did Christ not command the believers to be baptized?
"16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
Did Christ not command the believers to be baptized?
Skwim
Veteran Member
Sorry that you completely missed the point, but I can't put it any simpler.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
He did.....but when they came asking...position in the kingdom....
The topic returned and did not go well.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
So, so far we have 1) Love God 2) Love your neighbor/ be non-violent and 3) Get baptized
Shermana
Heretic
And listen to the Pharisees and do everything they tell you, while avoiding their hypocrisy.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
except for when they tell you to offer up animal sacrifices right?
Though Christ did command his disciples to do that for a limited time.
Shermana
Heretic
Indeed. In fact Jesus told the Leper to make a sacrifice after healing him, he also said "before you make your offering make up with your brother first". Why give such advice if it only would last 3 days?
There will be sacrifices again in the end days, Zechariah 14 is clear, along with gentiles celebrating Succoth and perhaps other holy days.
Now ALSO notice that the Pharisees have not said to make animal sacrifices since the Temple was destroyed, and also notice that Paul himself made a sacrifice for the Jerusalem Church while it was still standing.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Wow that is interesting to take note of. Good observation.
Avoice
Active Member
Of course I did. And...
Shermana
Heretic
If it doesn't matter what one does and they'll be saved anyway because "All is possible", what's the point of obeying anything Jesus teaches? What's the point in not sinning at all? What's the point in doing any good deed apart from what benefits you immediately from a religious standpoint?
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
I believe that we need to do more than believe Jesus Christ existed and is real in order to be saved, for even the devils "believe" in Christ and tremble before him. Faith is more than just merely believing, it is the thing that motivates us to act on the teachings of Christ and follow him because we trust him. I believe God can see the hearts of men and see the Faith that dwells within us. I believe as for the thief on the cross, on the cross he exercised a hope in Christ which hope made room for Faith and if that thief had been granted the opportunity to continue to live I believe he would have become a faithful follower of Christ. Now as for many the assumption has been made that this thief was never baptized, opening room to believe we have no need for baptism. All I have to say for that is that idea is pure assumption and is not scriptural at all. For all we know perhaps he was baptized and in doing so confessed his sins before the world and was afterwords judged according to his crimes and condemned to death on the cross. If this were the case wow, what an admirable example for truly he forsook his sins, took up his cross and followed Christ.
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BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Verses in both Matthew and Luke say that baptism is with water and with fire, which makes it obvious this isn't a literal command.
Peace,
Bruce
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Verses in both Matthew and Luke say that baptism is with water and with fire, which makes it obvious this isn't a literal command.
Peace,
Bruce
Mark 16:16
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
So you don't believe this is literal?
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Clearly not, given the verses I pointed out!
Besides which, the Baha'i scriptures say this:
"Chapter 20. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM
"Question.--Is the ablution of baptism useful and necessary, or is it useless and unnecessary? In the first case, if it is useful, why was it abrogated? And in the second case, if it is useless, why did John practice it?
"Answer.--The change in conditions, alterations and transformations are necessities of the essence of beings, and essential necessities cannot be separated from the reality of things. So it is absolutely impossible to separate heat from fire, humidity from water, or light from the sun, for they are essential necessities. As the change and alteration of conditions are necessities for beings, so laws also are changed and altered in accordance with the changes and alterations of the times. For example, in the time of Moses, His Law was conformed and adapted to the conditions of the time; but in the days of Christ these conditions had changed and altered to such an extent that the Mosaic Law was no longer suited and adapted to the needs of mankind; and it was, therefore, abrogated. Thus it was that Christ broke the Sabbath and forbade divorce. After Christ four disciples, among whom were Peter and Paul, permitted the use of animal food forbidden by the Bible, except the eating of those animals which had been strangled, or which were sacrificed to idols, and of blood. [Acts 15:20.] They also forbade fornication. They maintained these four commandments. Afterward, Paul permitted even the eating of strangled animals, those sacrificed to idols, and blood, and only maintained the prohibition of fornication. So in chapter 14, verse 14 of his Epistle to the Romans, Paul writes: 'I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.'
"Also in the Epistle of Paul to Titus, chapter 1, verse 15: 'Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.'
"Now this change, these alterations and this abrogation are due to the impossibility of comparing the time of Christ with that of Moses. The conditions and requirements in the later period were entirely changed and altered. The former laws were, therefore, abrogated.
"The existence of the world may be compared to that of a man, and the Prophets and Messengers of God to skillful doctors. The human being cannot remain in one condition: different maladies occur which have each a special remedy. The skillful physician does not give the same medicine to cure each disease and each malady, but he changes remedies and medicines according to the different necessities of the diseases and constitutions. One person may have a severe illness caused by fever, and the skilled doctor will give him cooling remedies; and when at some other time the condition of this person has changed, and fever is replaced by chills, without doubt the skilled doctor will discard cooling medicine and permit the use of heating drugs. This change and alteration is required by the condition of the patient and is an evident proof of the skill of the physician.
"Consider: could the Law of the Old Testament be enforced at this epoch and time? No, in the name of God! it would be impossible and impracticable; therefore, most certainly God abrogated the laws of the Old Testament at the time of Christ. Reflect, also, that baptism in the days of John the Baptist was used to awaken and admonish the people to repent from all sin, and to watch for the appearance of the Kingdom of Christ. But at present in Asia, the Catholics and the Orthodox Church plunge newly born children into water mixed with olive oil, and many of them become ill from the shock; at the time of baptism they struggle and become agitated. In other places, the clergy sprinkle the water of baptism on the forehead. But neither from the first form nor from the second do the children derive any spiritual benefit. Then what result is obtained from this form? Other peoples are amazed and wonder why the infant is plunged into the water, since this is neither the cause of the spiritual awakening of the child, nor of its faith or conversion, but it is only a custom which is followed. In the time of John the Baptist it was not so; no, at first John used to exhort the people, and to guide them to repentance from sin, and to fill them with the desire to await the manifestation of Christ. Whoever received the ablution of baptism, and repented of sins in absolute humility and meekness, would also purify and cleanse his body from outward impurities. With perfect yearning, night and day, he would constantly wait for the manifestation of Christ, and the entrance to the Kingdom of the Spirit of God. [i.e., of Christ....]
"To recapitulate: our meaning is that the change and modification of conditions, and the altered requirements of different centuries and times, are the cause of the abrogation of laws. For a time comes when these laws are no longer suitably adapted to conditions. Consider how very different are the requirements of the first centuries, of the Middle Ages, and of modern times. Is it possible that the laws of the first centuries could be enforced at present? It is evident that it would be impossible and impracticable. In the same manner, after the lapse of a few centuries, the requirements of the present time will not be the same as those of the future, and certainly there will be change and alteration. In Europe the laws are unceasingly altered and modified; in bygone years, how many laws existed in the organizations and systems of Europe, which are now abrogated! These changes and alterations are due to the variation and mutation of thought, conditions and customs. If it were not so, the prosperity of the world of humanity would be wrecked.
For example, there is in the Pentateuch a law that if anyone break the Sabbath, he shall be put to death. Moreover, there are ten sentences of death in the Pentateuch. Would it be possible to keep these laws in our time? It is clear that it would be absolutely impossible. Consequently, there are changes and modifications in the laws, and these are a sufficient proof of the supreme wisdom of God.
"This subject needs deep thought. Then the cause of these changes will be evident and apparent.
"Blessed are those who reflect!"
--Some Answered Questions
Peace,
Bruce