comments on the Qur'an whether good or bad

[firedragon]

Because there is more than just me who is not a Muslim.

Again, a Kafir could be a Muslim.

Since you seem not to have read the explanation, here it is again.

A Kafir is someone who knows a truth and hides it
The first occurrences of the term Kafir occurs in the second chapter of theQuran.
 As for those who Kafaroo , whether you warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe. – Quran 2:6
 Or like a storm cloud from the sky, in it is darkness and thunder and lightning. They place their fingers in their ears from the thunder-claps for fear of death;
and God is aware of the Kafirs (Bialkafireena). – Quran 2:19
An exploration of the chapter in concern in context of the surrounding verse will expound the true intention of this allusion. Below you will find a summary of this chapter’s philosophy.
 The Quran is revealed to the righteous, who believe in the unseen, who believe in this and the previous revelations.
 As for those who see the truth and hide it maliciously commonly referred to as rejecter’s they will not believe in the truth if you inform
them or not
 Their hearts and ears are sealed, and they are blind. They will proclaim to believe in God and there’s a last day but only lie.
 They will claim to be good but the will spread corruption. When they meet those who acknowledge the truth they lie saying they do tooThere are no references to religions, races or any denomination.

A Kafir could be a person who calls himself a Muslim as you can see above that when a Kafir meets one who has acknowledged the truth they lie to you saying they also do accept the truth. Right at the beginning of the Quran God has explained what a Kafir is, therefore it is high time that Muslims woke up and realised that we have been mistaken all our lives.

Of course it is common that most of us were taught otherwise throughout our lives. The Quran tells you to not follow what your society has taught you
blindly.
 And if you obey most of those on the earth they will lead you away from the only guess. – Quran 6:115
And don’t worry if others don’t believe
 And most of the people, even if you are diligent, will not believe. – Quran 12:103

 

[firedragon]

You are Quranist?

I am a Muslim.

 

[Rival]

I am a Muslim.

Doesn't answer my question.

 

[firedragon]

Doesn't answer my question.

Okay. I am not a Quranist. Does that answer your question mate?
But the Quran is the central criterion. Furqan. I measure the cloth with the yardstick, not the other way around.

 

[Rival]

Okay. I am not a Quranist. Does that answer your question mate?
But the Quran is the central criterion. Furqan. I measure the cloth with the yardstick, not the other way around.

Thanks.

I was just saying that one cannot take the Qur'an alone and interpret it. It needs ahadith or tafsir. So in a discussion about the Qur'an I tend to back up what Qur'an says with narrations from ahadith to capitalise on it.

 

[FearGod]

The first verse clearly says Nuh's family were saved, which should logically include all his family. It doesn't make an exception and say 'except this one son', which it should if that one son wasn't spared because then it wouldn't be Nuh's family.

If you read the 2nd verse in fairness then you should already know that God doesn't include Noah's son within his family.

He said, "O Noah, indeed he is not of your family; indeed, he is [one whose] work was other than righteous, so ask Me not for that about which you have no knowledge. Indeed, I advise you, lest you be among the ignorant." (11:46)

Sorry that i don't have such a time to answer your questions, it becomes boring to always answer the same questions.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

By the way, without ahadith the Qur'an would be totally out of context and make virtually no sense, so I take it as red that I can quote a hadith in a topic about the Qur'an, because they are pretty inseparable.

Not really. The Hadith itself says that veneration towards other deities or to the prophet himself is against Islam as he wanted worship solely of Allah.
So in a way, the Hadith and texts outside Quran shouldn't be given any preference at all, as the Quran is said to be word of God while Hadith was written by men.
For a culture of people that finds the depiction of Mohammed in image offensive, surely they must also reject giving high authority to the Hadith and othet books outside the Quran.

 

[Rival]

Not really. The Hadith itself says that veneration towards other deities or to the prophet himself is against Islam as he wanted worship solely of Allah.
So in a way, the Hadith and texts outside Quran shouldn't be given any preference at all, as the Quran is said to be word of God while Hadith was written by men.
For a culture of people that finds the depiction of Mohammed in image offensive, surely they must also reject giving high authority to the Hadith and othet books outside the Quran.

I mean it mostly from a historic point of view, but for context the Qur'an desperately needs it.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

I mean it mostly from a historic point of view, but for context the Qur'an desperately needs it.

As a reference record yes... Not as a book of law, morality or worthy of veneration that most Sunnis do.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

Doesn't answer my question.

Aren't there any general Muslims, without the influence of any school, sect or denomination?

 

[Rival]

Aren't there any general Muslims, without the influence of any school, sect or denomination?

If there are, they are very few and far between.

 

[firedragon]

I mean it mostly from a historic point of view, but for context the Qur'an desperately needs it.

Desperately needs it?

God, there is no god except He. He will gather you for the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Who is more truthful a hadith than God? (4:87)

And if you see those who meddle in Our verses, then turn away from them until they meddle in a different hadith; and if the devil lets you forget, then do not sit after remembering with the wicked people [6:68]

Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and earth, and all that GOD has created?. Perhaps their time is coming near; so in which hadith after this will they have faith? [7:185]

In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a hadith that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who have faith. [12:111]

And from the people, there are those who accept baseless hadith to mislead from the path of GOD without knowledge, and takes it as entertainment. Those will have a humiliating retribution. [31:6]

God has sent down the best hadith; a book that is similar in two ways. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him. [39:23]

These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith after God and His revelations do they believe? [45:6]

Are you questioning this hadith? [53:59]

So in what hadith after this will they believe? [77:50]

Hadith means narration. Quran is the best hadith, Quran says so.

And do you understand what a criterion is? If you get any kind of information, measure it with the criterion, the furqan, the Quran. Not the other way around.

12:111 In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. It is not a hadith that has been invented, but to affirm what is between his hands and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

Cheers.

 

[Rival]

Desperately needs it?

God, there is no god except He. He will gather you for the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Who is more truthful a hadith than God? (4:87)

And if you see those who meddle in Our verses, then turn away from them until they meddle in a different hadith; and if the devil lets you forget, then do not sit after remembering with the wicked people [6:68]

Did they not look at the dominion of heavens and earth, and all that GOD has created?. Perhaps their time is coming near; so in which hadith after this will they have faith? [7:185]

In their stories is a lesson for the people of intelligence. It was not a hadith that was invented, but an authentication of what is already present and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and mercy to a people who have faith. [12:111]

And from the people, there are those who accept baseless hadith to mislead from the path of GOD without knowledge, and takes it as entertainment. Those will have a humiliating retribution. [31:6]

God has sent down the best hadith; a book that is similar in two ways. The skins of those who reverence their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is God's guidance; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whomever God misguides, then none can guide him. [39:23]

These are God's revelations that We recite to you with truth. So, in which hadith after God and His revelations do they believe? [45:6]

Are you questioning this hadith? [53:59]

So in what hadith after this will they believe? [77:50]

Hadith means narration. Quran is the best hadith, Quran says so.

And do you understand what a criterion is? If you get any kind of information, measure it with the criterion, the furqan, the Quran. Not the other way around.

12:111 In their stories is a lesson for those who possess intelligence. It is not a hadith that has been invented, but to affirm what is between his hands and a detailing of all things, and a guidance and a mercy for a people who believe.

Cheers.

Yes, this is what the Qur'an says, but it is wrong. You believe it because you're a Muslim. The Qur'an, however, is nigh unintelligible in some verses. What about that one about "Why do you forbid that which Allah hath made permissible?" I can't recall the exact surah, forgive me, but it does not mention in the surah what exactly Allah has made permissible. We later learn the full story in a hadith, and if I remember right it was about Muhammad going to bed with Maria the Copt, his slave girl, who eventually bore him a son called Ibrahim, who died.

Do you see what I mean?

Also the Surah 'Al Lahab' (I think), which without hadith would make virtually no sense. Who is Abu Lahab? The Qur'an does not say.

Qur'an also does not mention how to pray.

Or how to make Hajj.

etc.

 

[Augustus]

The Qur'an, however, is nigh unintelligible in some verses. What about that one about "Why do you forbid that which Allah hath made permissible?" I can't recall the exact surah, forgive me, but it does not mention in the surah what exactly Allah has made permissible. We later learn the full story in a hadith, and if I remember right it was about Muhammad going to bed with Maria the Copt, his slave girl, who eventually bore him a son called Ibrahim, who died.

Do you see what I mean?

Also the Surah 'Al Lahab' (I think), which without hadith would make virtually no sense. Who is Abu Lahab? The Qur'an does not say.

Seems quite likely that much of the Sirah and hadith were created purely to explain such verses. Muqawqis (Cyrus of Alexandria) sending Muhammed a slave didn't happen as he wasn't in Egypt when it was supposed to have happened. Cyrus did have a correspondence with Amr ibn al-As during the reign of Abu Bakr though which led to confusion by historians writing 150 years after the events in question.

The Abu Lahab part of the Sirah is equally fanciful. The verse is just a parable.

It's clear that classical mufassir realy didn't know how to interpret many verses. They didn't even know who the Sabeans were, one of the select group of people of the book.

 

[FearGod]

Yes, this is what the Qur'an says, but it is wrong. You believe it because you're a Muslim. The Qur'an, however, is nigh unintelligible in some verses. What about that one about "Why do you forbid that which Allah hath made permissible?" I can't recall the exact surah, forgive me, but it does not mention in the surah what exactly Allah has made permissible. We later learn the full story in a hadith, and if I remember right it was about Muhammad going to bed with Maria the Copt, his slave girl, who eventually bore him a son called Ibrahim, who died.

Do you see what I mean?

Also the Surah 'Al Lahab' (I think), which without hadith would make virtually no sense. Who is Abu Lahab? The Qur'an does not say.

Qur'an also does not mention how to pray.

Or how to make Hajj.

etc.

The quran is clear by itself, some verses were clear for a specific period of time, for example
when the quran says fight the disbelievers then that doesn't mean that Muslims should search
for the disbelievers to kill them, take it easy and then the quran will be clear to you and for the others.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, this is what the Qur'an says, but it is wrong. You believe it because you're a Muslim. The Qur'an, however, is nigh unintelligible in some verses. What about that one about "Why do you forbid that which Allah hath made permissible?" I can't recall the exact surah, forgive me, but it does not mention in the surah what exactly Allah has made permissible. We later learn the full story in a hadith, and if I remember right it was about Muhammad going to bed with Maria the Copt, his slave girl, who eventually bore him a son called Ibrahim, who died.

Do you see what I mean?

Also the Surah 'Al Lahab' (I think), which without hadith would make virtually no sense. Who is Abu Lahab? The Qur'an does not say.

Qur'an also does not mention how to pray.

Or how to make Hajj.

etc.

So you say Quran is wrong. Alright then.

Thats a speculation. Hadith were written 180 to 230 years after the prophets death. There were hadiths that probably were made up to help with servitude, superiority, etc. Then they look for justification in the Quran.

Look for context in the Quran. Apply it to your knowledge you gathered from where ever you did. Dont measure the yardstick with the cloth because that helps your agenda.

Cheers.

 

[Rival]

Look for context in the Quran.

This is the problem. The context isn't there.

 

[Rival]

your agenda.

What's my agenda?

 

[firedragon]

This is the problem. The context isn't there.

Its there. Look for them.

Of course not when it comes to names. Who is Abu Lahab. Who is Hamaan. Who is Idris, Shu'aib etc? That cannot be expected to be explained in the Quran. But you will come to know. Whats important is to get the message of the Quran.

Other teachings, the context is there.

Nevertheless, you cant measure the yardstick with the cloth. The Quran says men and women are equal in salvation, hadith says women are born defective.

 

[Rival]

My only agenda is to prove Islam is false, not from God and a bad religion. I'm pretty out about that.