comments on the Qur'an whether good or bad

[FearGod]

I understood perfectly, but I want you to tell me the meaning of the surah.

What lesson are we supposed to take from it?

What lesson we get when one verse says kill the disbelievers?
It has a meaning at one point of time when the disbelievers fought the Muslims,
should it has a meaning all the times for telling a historical story.

 

[firedragon]

What lesson we get when one verse says kill the disbelievers?
It has a meaning at one point of time when the disbelievers fought the Muslims,
should it has a meaning all the times for telling a historical story.

Untruthful are those who use this little fragment of the Quran to show that Quran teaches murder and war. It is a deceitful strategy and anyone who quotes a little part of any book, completely out of context are utter and complete hypocrites.

The minor context of this quotation
 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, God does not love the aggressors.
 And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do
not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters.
 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is for God. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
-Quran 2:190-193

You can see that the Quran does not tell you to be the victim but it establishes that you must not be the aggressor. You are allowed to fight back if someone aggressively fights with you. But even then, you are asked to forgive and cease fighting if the enemy seizes his fight. You are allowed to fight only until the persecution stops.

You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are
wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”

Maybe you should read this post.

Edit: http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...hether-good-or-bad.187117/page-3#post-4741214

 

[anonymous9887]

Please provide the verse(s) from the Koran to support each of these claims.

Yes I want scriptural evidence as well.

 

[anonymous9887]

Why are people seeking to much evidence for other religions?
If you want a religion to be so much proven to you go and talk with rabbis, imams, priests because they will do it way better than everyday believers.



The strongest evidence: The Quran itself.

What about the Qur'an is proof. What elements?

 

[FearGod]

Untruthful are those who use this little fragment of the Quran to show that Quran teaches murder and war. It is a deceitful strategy and anyone who quotes a little part of any book, completely out of context are utter and complete hypocrites.

The minor context of this quotation
 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not aggress, God does not love the aggressors.
 And kill them wherever you encounter them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do
not fight them at the Restricted Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill them, thus is the recompense of the rejecters.
 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is for God. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.
-Quran 2:190-193

You can see that the Quran does not tell you to be the victim but it establishes that you must not be the aggressor. You are allowed to fight back if someone aggressively fights with you. But even then, you are asked to forgive and cease fighting if the enemy seizes his fight. You are allowed to fight only until the persecution stops.

You must fight if someone is weak, being persecuted and are oppressed.

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are
wicked, and grant us from yourself a Supporter, and grant us from yourself a Victor!”

Maybe you should read this post.

Edit: http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...hether-good-or-bad.187117/page-3#post-4741214

The amazing thing that even though that we have such lesson in the quran but Muslims today don't follow it exactly
as what the prophet foretold that Muslims at the end of time will be the weakest till God intervene and that is when
the day of real Khilafa will be born, i wonder how such events are happening and still some still don't believe.

 

[firedragon]

The amazing thing that even though that we have such lesson in the quran but Muslims today don't follow it exactly
as what the prophet foretold that Muslims at the end of time will be the weakest till God intervene and that is when
the day of real Khilafa will be born, i wonder how such events are happening and still some still don't believe.

In a world where people who apparently follow a man who told you to give the other cheek, agree with them quickly, give your coat, justify killing thousands of people with an atomic bomb, what else do you expect?

 

[anonymous9887]

Why should bible readers challenge the Qur'an? You make it sound like you want there to be discord between Christians and muslims.

That's your interpretation of my words
1. These are 2 major faiths that should provide evidence and should be able to have a peaceful discussion.
2. I'll give it to muslims and their dedication, but with all do respect some christians are not ready to put up a defense with a peaceful discussion and rather not bother.
3. So that's a huge problem I believe.

 

[anonymous9887]

I have same opinion about theological debate and linguistical debate - many ideas on who many don't agree on and leads nowhere. Am I wrong?

You may think, but there are people who don't even participate who just read these comments and may form an opinion or help mold someone's opinion. It doesn't happen overnight.

 

[anonymous9887]

In the name of God, the compassionate and the merciful

I would be glad if could answer your questions. Specify the topic before any questions.

Don't you think your god is kind of wicked because of these statements and questions:
1. Did god make everything good?
2. Don't you think it's wicked to create us to test us?
3. I would I'll start with these.

 

[David1967]

What does your research tell you about the Qur'an?

Paul, Read the Quran and make up your own mind. That is assuming you haven't read it yet.

 

[firedragon]

Don't you think your god is kind of wicked because of these statements and questions:
1. Did god make everything good?
2. Don't you think it's wicked to create us to test us?
3. I would I'll start with these.

Honestly, I have done some though on this. This is a study called theodicy.

I think the concept of God has been misunderstood a lot and some people who analysed Theodicy in great detail and had ideas that deferred from the normal answers and justifications religious leaders give were called heretics. Ibn Arabi was one of them. I mean out of the Muslims. There were many many Christians too.

I believe that Buddhism with its 4 truths etc the reincarnation theory is born of creation, life and evil justification.

I don't believe God is a being outside this world looking at all of us like we are ants.

Traditional Islam allowed free thought. During the times when in the western world Christianity was suppressing scientific exploration and free thought, Islamic empire was encouraging them. Ibn Arabi and Avicena were just two of the people who allowed philosophy enter their theological studies and explorations. At that time it was encouraged, thus the golden age.

I sincerely believe that Christianity as a whole is doing that now. Even Judaism. Though there was a lot of resistance some time ago. Killing scientists. Killing Tindale. Disallowing open surgery etc.

Well. The problem is we call him God. By the English word. What we are used to are Gods like Zeus and Apollo. Then came Jesus with a statue. Of course also the Indian Gods. Like Karuppayya. But when you understand it from the Arabic point of view it changes. Now Allah has become a proper name. Like Zeus. Thus when you say Allah you picture the Islamic God. Can you see that the previous sentence in bold itself is flawed? Allah is the translation The God. Replace Allah with 'The God' and you will see what I mean.

Thus when you say God you picture the Islamic God.

Elohim means Powers or Mights (Pluralis Majestatis). YHWH I have heard from scholars of the Hebrew language comes from Havah which means he exists. Allah means The Divinity.

The rabbit hole might run much deeper.

Since God is an Almighty being staying outside this world, why cant he see that an innocent human being is suffering. Now many would say that sin is punished. Really? A child is born into utmost poverty in Somalia and die of hunger. Is it because he sinned? Where did he get an opportunity to sin?

Also, when you study the Quran and classical Arabic in depth. Especially ancient documents. Trying to understand them, you will find that in language, nothing comes close to the language of the Quran. During that time, there are no Arabic work of this magnitude. Well, if I say 1% of this magnitude that is still undermining the Quran. Thus when anyone studies classical arabic, Muslim or not, the Quran is the best tool. Best is an understatement. By far.

Thus, when you study the Quran in depth, you will see that "We created" or "We made it happen" does not actually mean God did something. It could also very well mean It happened. Now there is a famous phrase that Muslim apologists use a lot. Kun Fa Yakun. Be and it is.

36:82 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.

The Arabic word Kun can never be simply translated as Be. It is the act of manifestation. The act of existing inside something.

Well, thats a long subject and it would take a whole book to explain. God does not get involved. Simple. Its a bit deeper than that.

 

[anonymous9887]

Paul, Read the Quran and make up your own mind. That is assuming you haven't read it yet.

I know what you mean, but sometimes we miss some good points. We have research that kind of shortens the journey.

 

[firedragon]

I know what you mean, but sometimes we miss some good points. We have research that kind of shortens the journey.

.
True Paul. But also, though I believe David was offensive towards you, what he said has a lot of truth too.

We could all be lying, unless you at least take them and go do your own research, with the Quran or/and bible etc. Anyone could be lying.

 

[anonymous9887]

Honestly, I have done some though on this. This is a study called theodicy.

I think the concept of God has been misunderstood a lot and some people who analysed Theodicy in great detail and had ideas that deferred from the normal answers and justifications religious leaders give were called heretics. Ibn Arabi was one of them. I mean out of the Muslims. There were many many Christians too.

I believe that Buddhism with its 4 truths etc the reincarnation theory is born of creation, life and evil justification.

I don't believe God is a being outside this world looking at all of us like we are ants.

Traditional Islam allowed free thought. During the times when in the western world Christianity was suppressing scientific exploration and free thought, Islamic empire was encouraging them. Ibn Arabi and Avicena were just two of the people who allowed philosophy enter their theological studies and explorations. At that time it was encouraged, thus the golden age.

I sincerely believe that Christianity as a whole is doing that now. Even Judaism. Though there was a lot of resistance some time ago. Killing scientists. Killing Tindale. Disallowing open surgery etc.

Well. The problem is we call him God. By the English word. What we are used to are Gods like Zeus and Apollo. Then came Jesus with a statue. Of course also the Indian Gods. Like Karuppayya. But when you understand it from the Arabic point of view it changes. Now Allah has become a proper name. Like Zeus. Thus when you say Allah you picture the Islamic God. Can you see that the previous sentence in bold itself is flawed? Allah is the translation The God. Replace Allah with 'The God' and you will see what I mean.

Thus when you say God you picture the Islamic God.

Elohim means Powers or Mights (Pluralis Majestatis). YHWH I have heard from scholars of the Hebrew language comes from Havah which means he exists. Allah means The Divinity.

The rabbit hole might run much deeper.

Since God is an Almighty being staying outside this world, why cant he see that an innocent human being is suffering. Now many would say that sin is punished. Really? A child is born into utmost poverty in Somalia and die of hunger. Is it because he sinned? Where did he get an opportunity to sin?

Also, when you study the Quran and classical Arabic in depth. Especially ancient documents. Trying to understand them, you will find that in language, nothing comes close to the language of the Quran. During that time, there are no Arabic work of this magnitude. Well, if I say 1% of this magnitude that is still undermining the Quran. Thus when anyone studies classical arabic, Muslim or not, the Quran is the best tool. Best is an understatement. By far.

Thus, when you study the Quran in depth, you will see that "We created" or "We made it happen" does not actually mean God did something. It could also very well mean It happened. Now there is a famous phrase that Muslim apologists use a lot. Kun Fa Yakun. Be and it is.

36:82 His command, when He wants anything, is to say to it: ‘Be,’ and it is.

The Arabic word Kun can never be simply translated as Be. It is the act of manifestation. The act of existing inside something.

Well, thats a long subject and it would take a whole book to explain. God does not get involved. Simple. Its a bit deeper than that.

The popular answer I heard from many muslims is " god created us to test us.
1. To answer one of the questions we are all sinners we are born guilty.
2. Question: are we as human beings able to be perfect and by perfect I mean keep gods commandments fully with no mistakes? If so who is your example?
3. Depending on your answer why would god give us a guideline that we simply could not fulfill?

 

[anonymous9887]

.
True Paul. But also, though I believe David was offensive towards you, what he said has a lot of truth too.

We could all be lying, unless you at least take them and go do your own research, with the Quran or/and bible etc. Anyone could be lying.

I don't care about the offensive part. I love to study religion, and hearing people ideas and thoughts can be stimulating if you know how to separate the good from the bad. We can all benefit one person alone cannot get all the answers.

 

[firedragon]

The popular answer I heard from many muslims is " god created us to test us.
1. To answer one of the questions we are all sinners we are born guilty.
2. Question: are we as human beings able to be perfect and by perfect I mean keep gods commandments fully with no mistakes? If so who is your example?
3. Depending on your answer why would god give us a guideline that we simply could not fulfill?

I dont care about popular answers mate.

1. I have a brain. Thus, I dont think we are all sinners or born guilty. Buddhism after the Buddha and the tipitaka, has a concept of reincarnation with Karma Vipaka. Still, only sinners in the previous life are born with sin. Flaws in that take time, still, a country that had 4 million population has grown not to over 20 million. Now, 4 million are suffering in that country. Where did all the suffering come from? The bible says "The son shall not bear the inequity of the father, neither shall the father bear the inequity of the son".

2. Perfect. What is perfect?
Anyway, if you read the Quran, we are not expected to be perfect. And I dont like this question of example because you never know what goes through any ones mind. Cant you see that Paul?

3. If you read the Quran, it is not so difficult to fulfill at all.

 

[firedragon]

I don't care about the offensive part. I love to study religion, and hearing people ideas and thoughts can be stimulating if you know how to separate the good from the bad. We can all benefit one person alone cannot get all the answers.

Yep. You are right.

 

[David1967]

I know what you mean, but sometimes we miss some good points. We have research that kind of shortens the journey.

I agree with you here. A good combination of reading it and talking to people of that faith is helpful. Some of the Muslim members of RF have been very helpful answering respectful questions regarding Islam. I'm reading the Quran now since it is a very large and often misunderstood world religion that I want to have at least a fair opinion about.

 

[anonymous9887]

I dont care about popular answers mate.

1. I have a brain. Thus, I dont think we are all sinners or born guilty. Buddhism after the Buddha and the tipitaka, has a concept of reincarnation with Karma Vipaka. Still, only sinners in the previous life are born with sin. Flaws in that take time, still, a country that had 4 million population has grown not to over 20 million. Now, 4 million are suffering in that country. Where did all the suffering come from? The bible says "The son shall not bear the inequity of the father, neither shall the father bear the inequity of the son".

2. Perfect. What is perfect?
Anyway, if you read the Quran, we are not expected to be perfect. And I dont like this question of example because you never know what goes through any ones mind. Cant you see that Paul?

3. If you read the Quran, it is not so difficult to fulfill at all.

1. Of course you don't believe in original sin you go by the Qur'an.
2. The son will not bear the inequity of the parents. Exactly. I agree. When Adam and Eve were perfect or complete they had direct communication with god and everything in plain sight. When they sinned they were truly deserving of death, but they bore children after sin therefore produced imperfect offspring. Although unable to fully be complete toward god flawlessly we are shown undeserved kindness, although are flesh has sinful desires and we are born that way, we still have an opportunity to repent, so we are not without repurchase for our parents sin.
3. I know you don't like the question but is someone capable of remaining flawless before god? If so who is your example? I also understand we are not expected to be perfect, but are we capable of it?

 

[Yasin-shalal]

Don't you think your god is kind of wicked because of these statements and questions:
1. Did god make everything good?
2. Don't you think it's wicked to create us to test us?
3. I would I'll start with these.

Response:
1- Any good thing which we receive, is from God and any thing which we receive from God, is good(according to Quran, Hadith and logic).
2- No it's not. The test was based on our own choice(according to Quran and Hadith).
3- You can continue with (1) and (2).