Concerning the Hellfire Doctrine

[fallingblood]

Don't forget the genealogies in Matt and Luke are tracing through two different lines. One is maternal through Mary having the fleshly right, and one is paternal through Jesus foster father having the legal right for Jesus to be in line for the the promised throne of David.

Except there is no evidence for that. Both genealogies state that they were going through Joseph.

Yosef1986: There are many problems with Christianity. One of them is that many of the teachings aren't fully based on the scriptures, and that many people simply don't understand the Bible and thus take only bits and pieces and then string them together to make up a story such as hell.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I always find it weird how Christians claim that everybody except Christians is going to hell. I asked a Christian lady about it the other day. I asked: "Assuming this hell did exist? If a person were truly good and kind, even if they were an atheist, if they spent their life being good and kind to everyone, what reason would your god have to throw them into hell? What accusation could he bring against them to say they deserve it?"

Jesus went to hell -Acts 2:27,31.

As far as dying due to inherited imperfection Romans 6:7 says that death frees or acquits a person from sin. That does not mean innocent but more like a judge or governor pardoning a person so that the charges against him no longer stick.

Romans 6:23 says the wages or the price tag of sin is: death.
So a person's 'death' stamps the price tag of sin as Paid in full.
The only exception are those of Matt 12:32; Hebrews 6:4-6.
They are the same as those of Psalm 92:7 that will be annihilated for their wickedness.

We are nearing the time frame of Matthew 12:31,32. Those people alive or living on earth at the time that Jesus takes action against them will be punished with everlasting destruction- 2 Thess. 1:9. Those alive or living on earth at that time placed at Jesus right hand of favor, so to speak, remain alive and keep right on living into Jesus peaceful 1000-year rule over earth when he ushers in Peace on Earth toward men of goodwill.

 

[TheKnight]

Not that you'll be destroyed forever for not believing. That you'll be destroyed forever if you're wicked, but I've never heard the Rabbis describe non-Monotheists as anything other then wicked, in fact the most Orthodox Rabbis claim that only Jews and Noahides will be in the world to come. Where does that leave me, a non-observant Jew who worships gods that your god claims to be jealous of?

You should know that Judaism teaches that God is not nearly so concerned with your beliefs as He is your actions. Your actions create who you are in this world and in the next.

When the time comes to stand before God in judgment, what will matter most is how you behaved. Not necessarily what you believed.

The unfortunate thing is that many non-religionists tend to engage in behavior that is antithetical to Torah.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Except there is no evidence for that. Both genealogies state that they were going through Joseph.
Yosef1986: There are many problems with Christianity. One of them is that many of the teachings aren't fully based on the scriptures, and that many people simply don't understand the Bible and thus take only bits and pieces and then string them together to make up a story such as hell.

It is the fault of the false clergy class that people don't understand the Bible.
They have run afoul playing false to God and his Word and more people see that. Even the political world sees a dangerous religious climate brewing in the world today. With backing the United Nations can be strengthened to turn on the world's troublesome religious sector.

Luke traced the line through David's son Nathan. Matthew through Solomon.
Luke follows the ancestry of Mary showing Jesus natural or fleshly descent from David. Luke proving Jesus human birth as a son of David through Mary.
Matthew showing Jesus legal right, male heir, from Solomon through Joseph.
Since the records were public knowledge if there was a question about Jesus surely the religious leaders would have been howling about it.

The problem is not with the Christianity of the first century.
Acts 20:29,30 shows that wolf-like clergy in sheep's clothing would enter in among the flock to fleece it. That is why Jesus gave the illustration of the Wheat [genuine] and Weeds [false Christians] growing together until the harvest time or our time frame of separation. - Matthew 25:32.

 

[fallingblood]

Again, there is no evidence to suggest that Luke was tracing the line through Mary. It states that it is going through Joseph. There is no evidence that Luke or Matthew meant for anything except that the genealogies where going through Joseph.

If you don't like that one though, how about when Jesus was crucified? John states it was on the day of Preparation for the Passover, the day before Passover. Mark states it was on Passover, a day after John states that it happened.




Yosef1987: Just thought of this. Elaine Pagels has a book on the history of the Devil/Satan. I think this would actually answer many of your questions. There is also a documentary out called The History of the Devil. It also gives a brief history on how hell was actually formed (or how the idea evolved).

 

[Beta]

I backed off when he didn`t show up.

Had God made an appointment to see you - or you him ?
God does not do appointments - He turns up when HE knows it is the right time for you, not when YOU think he should. He won't let us jump the gun.
People have the wrong take on God wanting him to fit in with them. It ain't going to happen.
He tells us in scripture (his word) that we are to DILLIGENTLY SEEK him AND DO SO UNTIL HE SHOWS UP / reveals himself.
YOU apparently showed an IMPATIENCE not fitted for an ETERNAL existence. PATIENCE is one of God's requirements for man (among a few others).

 

[Beta]

I choose not to worship the Abrahamic gods, because he couldn't offer me what my gods offer me, a genuine, loving, true relationship. I used to call and call for your god, but he never answered. Will your god condemn me to hell for rejecting him because he never showed himself to me, and my gods did?

Friend - you may have called and called but please understand God does not come running to grant our every pleasure.
Don't you know YOU are supposed to go LOOKING for him ? It's a little test to show him you really really want him. When people want him to turn up when it suits THEM it shows a selfish human trait that would make their conversion into a battle with God and that is something God will not engage in. Man has to come to him of their own free will and be prepared to follow HIS instructions. God will not force anyone.

 

[Agnostic75]

The Bible clearly has contradictions. Just look at the genealogies in Matthew and Luke. There is no way to deny that they are different. So it is not a matter of contradictions that appear to be in the Bible so much as contradictions that are in the Bible.

I certainly do not promote the Bible, but please be advised that some Christians have arguments that are not easy to refute. For instance, Christian apologists James Holding and Glenn Miller are very intelligent, and very well-read, and they are certainly not pushovers. Holding's main website is at Tekton Apologetics Ministries. James Patrick Holding. Tektonitron apologetics Encyclopedia. answering Bible difficulties and Bible contradictions. Miller's main website is at A Christian Thinktank. If you use the keyword search at those websites, you can find their articles about genealogies.

 

[Agnostic75]

Friend - you may have called and called but please understand God does not come running to grant our every pleasure.

In other words, might makes right.

If a God inspired the Bible, he certainly does not have to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to go to heaven, but that would be the loving and merciful thing for him to do.

Morally, no man can be denied entry into heaven for refusing to accept evidence that he would accept if he was aware of it.

 

[fallingblood]

I certainly do not promote the Bible, but please be advised that some Christians have arguments that are not easy to refute.

Honestly, I really don't care. Here is the reason why. There are a vast number of people who believe in psychics. They will give arguments that seem hard to refute, such as actual video, pictures, etc. However, they are only hard to refute if you haven't actually studied them and the people who are holding those arguments refuse to accept anything else as possible.

My point, those arguments are not hard to refute. The problem is that those who hold those arguments refuse to accept that anything else may be possible. That doesn't mean the point wasn't refuted, it simply means they are being stubborn.

 

[fallingblood]

In other words, might makes right.

If a God inspired the Bible, he certainly does not have to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to go to heaven, but that would be the loving and merciful thing for him to do.

Morally, no man can be denied entry into heaven for refusing to accept evidence that he would accept if he was aware of it.

No one said might makes right. And the rest if simply based on ignorance. No need to really debate it here.

The fact that it is hard to even prove that anyone will go to hell basically makes your point moot.

 

[Beta]

In other words, might makes right.

If a God inspired the Bible, he certainly does not have to provide additional evidence that would cause more people to go to heaven, but that would be the loving and merciful thing for him to do.

Morally, no man can be denied entry into heaven for refusing to accept evidence that he would accept if he was aware of it.

The Word of God tells you what to do : Believe God !
That is all the evidence a person needs to get started.
You are therefore 'aware' of what God wants.
He is already loving and merciful by telling you what he wants.
For you that is apparently not enough and shows a lack of trust in Him. Why should he give you more evidence which you might also question ?

might makes right is YOUR understanding of God which is seriously wrong. God is not begging people to trust him by convincing them further. You either believe in his absolute righteousness or you don't.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

The Word of God tells you what to do : Believe God !
That is all the evidence a person needs to get started.

So your god expects me to suspend all reason and logic and accept some book you call his word? No thanks

 

[linwood]

Had God made an appointment to see you - or you him ?
God does not do appointments - He turns up when HE knows it is the right time for you, not when YOU think he should. He won't let us jump the gun.
People have the wrong take on God wanting him to fit in with them. It ain't going to happen.
He tells us in scripture (his word) that we are to DILLIGENTLY SEEK him AND DO SO UNTIL HE SHOWS UP / reveals himself.
YOU apparently showed an IMPATIENCE not fitted for an ETERNAL existence. PATIENCE is one of God's requirements for man (among a few others).

Well until he sees fit to show himself I`ll just carry on without him.

Just like I do with all the other imaginary creatures I keep hearing about.

 

[fallingblood]

It is not saying to suspend reason and logic and accept some book on blind faith. For instance, I find the Bible to be an important book, but I do not find it to be inerrant. I find it to be an important piece of literature because of it's history and how it has effected history. But also because it can provide a source for living a good life, if not taken wholly literally.

At the same time though, I do believe in god/s and I do not find this to be directly at odds with what the Bible teaches. My understanding of god/s is different than most Christians, but still can go hand in hand with the Biblical God.

The problem is that people do not take the time to fully understand the Bible, or the historical context that it was written in. Simply laying down the Bible and reading it may give you some good advice, but it will also not give a full understanding of what is being said or why.

 

[Jeremiah]

I always find it weird how Christians claim that everybody except Christians is going to hell. I asked a Christian lady about it the other day. I asked: "Assuming this hell did exist? If a person were truly good and kind, even if they were an atheist, if they spent their life being good and kind to everyone, what reason would your god have to throw them into hell? What accusation could he bring against them to say they deserve it?" She answered: "It doesn't matter, they don't have the Holy Spirit, and you have to have the Holy Spirit." So the idea is that God will cast you into hell, even if you're an amazingly good person? Who would want to worship such a god?

"I always find it weird how Christians claim that everybody except Christians is going to hell."

What I find it weird, is that you seem to have a habit of stereotyping people. Christians say this, artiest think that, Jews claim this, etc...

Don't you have something better to do then hanging around here criticizing people who may have different beliefs then you?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Jeremiah I have no idea what you mean. I don't generalize Jews. I can speak for Jews because I am a Jew. I don't generalize Atheists either. I have many Atheist friends. I don't generalize Christians, but if their religion says something, hey what can ya do?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Don't you have something better to do then hanging around here criticizing people who may have different beliefs then you?

I don't criticize people for beliefs different then mine either. People are entitled to believe whatever they please. I'm the one always getting criticized by fundies.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

I always find it weird how Christians claim that everybody except Christians is going to hell. I asked a Christian lady about it the other day. I asked: "Assuming this hell did exist? If a person were truly good and kind, even if they were an atheist, if they spent their life being good and kind to everyone, what reason would your god have to throw them into hell? What accusation could he bring against them to say they deserve it?" She answered: "It doesn't matter, they don't have the Holy Spirit, and you have to have the Holy Spirit." So the idea is that God will cast you into hell, even if you're an amazingly good person? Who would want to worship such a god?

First off she gave a horrible response in my view point, but yes I would say sadly even though that person was the nicest person in the world if he still didn't obey God's word he would still go to hell.

 

[Beta]

First off she gave a horrible response in my view point, but yes I would say sadly even though that person was the nicest person in the world if he still didn't obey God's word he would still go to hell.

This lady may have pressed her point of 'hell' but she should also have explained that WITHOUT GOD one CAN NOT get into eternal life. That's just the way it is and that is why we NEED GOD. It's not that God is difficult but that there is no other way into immortallity.